SW - why the hate for the EU?

Sluis Van Shipyards

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In the SW threads I don't get all the hate for the Expanded Universe. People complain about how Lucas ruined SW, then they either don't like or are dismissive of the EU. So who do you think is the new authority on SW? All the new SW is EU unless the story comes from George Lucas personally according to Lucasfilm's policy. The people writing the new movies and cartoons are doing exactly what the EU authors and game creators have been doing a LOT longer. Most people who have read the EU stuff can give you a list of books and games that are better than the Prequels, which these same people despise, yet they hate the EU because Lucas didn't show it in a movie.
So you have this:

George Lucas created the OT - great
EU is created, but it's no good because Lucas didn't personally create it.
George Lucas created the Prequels- ruined everyone's lives, hence Lucas is crazy and anything he touches is awful now.
For some reason the EU is still bad because Lucas didn't create it and put it in a movie, but Lucas is crazy and everything he does is bad.
 

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I wouldn't say it is hate exactly.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for me and my friends growing up, Lucas was like a god. He created Star Wars and Indiana Jones. To us, the EU was no more than fan fiction, and not considered canon any more do than our own adventures dreamt up while playing with Star Wars action figures.

Fast forward to present day, where the prequels and special editions have obliterated the once high position held by Lucas to the extent that it sometimes feels like the TRUE Star Wars is lost forever, because Lucas either isn't what we thought, or just lost it.

Lucas didn't direct Indiana Jones, he came up with the concept. My only hope is that Star Wars can return to its former glory by someone else embracing what is great about Lucas concept and effectively transmitting it to the big screen.

As for the EU, I don't really care if it is a part now or not, just as long as the final product represents TRUE Star Wars and not what we have seen lately.
 
I don't hate the EU at all, it's just the quality is all over the place. Most of it I find lacking but there are some gems in there for sure, especially the stuff that was coming out in the early 90's. I read some young Han Solo books that were great and a few post OT novels (including the Thrawn Trilogy) that were fantastic takes on the Star Wars universe.

George Lucas didn't ruin anyone's lives with the PT. That's just nonsense. Do I think they're great films? Hell no but I don't lose sleep over them. What he DID do that pains me to no end is mess with the originals to the extent that he's changed scripting from vital scenes and denied younger generations the story as originally told. There is no current "unabridged" version of the OT commercially available and that's sinful. It's a problem that I hope Disney rectifies some day.

I think the way you're interpreting people's issue with the EU is mistaken though. By no means is anyone saying that the EU is bad because it wasn't the brainchild of GL or in a film. They're saying that it's not cannon, which is perfectly valid as it isn't. It has the potential to be cannon but until it's in a film it's fan fiction.

So here's what you really have:

GL creates the OT - Great
EU is formed and continues to evolve - Mixed bag, some good, some bad, but none of it cannon
GL created the PT - Not so great, Lucas becomes viewed as a problem to the SW universe
EU still around - Mixed bag, some good, some bad, and still not cannon

The reason people dismiss it isn't because it's bad. It's because it isn't "official".
 
...Fast forward to present day, where the prequels and special editions have obliterated the once high position held by Lucas to the extent that it sometimes feels like the TRUE Star Wars is lost forever, because Lucas either isn't what we thought, or just lost it...
Lucas lost it--"it" being the idealistic views he had in his younger days, and the opinions of people he trusted. Lucas' original ideas and scripts for the Star Wars saga went through numerous re-writes because he accepted "notes" from friends like Francis Ford Coppola and John Milius; the original draft bears little to no resemblance to what was actually filmed. By the time Lucas decided to do the Prequel movies he was at least 15 years older, had been though a difficult divorce, and had few (if any) people around him to "advise" him if he was taking the story in the "wrong" direction. He was a very different person when he made the Prequel Trilogy movies--his perspective on the world at large, life in general, and moviemaking had changed, so the story he wrote changed as a by-product of his experiences and opinions.

Back to the main topic, I neither like nor dislike the Expanded Universe. I've read only a handful of books--some I liked, some I didn't--so I honestly don't know much about the goings-on in the EU in general. However, I am one of those fans who holds the opinion that anything not seen in the movies is non-canon.
 
I was okay the the EU (some really good books, and some not so good) until the Vong war went about twenty books too long. And then I tried to read Coruscant Nights and made it perhaps fifty pages. I think that was the last EU book I purchased. I just got tired of throwing money at the EU with the really hit or miss quality.

My 'completionism' no longer controls me. So I actually thank the EU, I suppose. Or my wife does. Something like that.
 
Once Lucas is out of the picture,does Disney get to decide what is/isn't canon? Will the new movies just be another parallel universe to the OT,just like the EU is ?

My brain hurts. :facepalm
 
I like a lot of the EU. Some of the authors are good and have really added some good stories.

I have always though I Jedi stood out as a really good book regardless of the genre. So no EU hate from me.


I honestly think that a lot of the EU hate and Prequel hate is just the follow the crowd that we see in all of society. It always makes me think of the Seinfeld episode about the English Patient, when Elaine hates the movie but everyone just loves it because they think they are supposed to.
 
I've never hated the EU, I just never thought it was canon. And yes, I have had some major debates with some who claimed it was. I've read a few EU books and just didn't care for them. As far as that goes I actually enjoyed the SW Marvel comics of old much more than anything I ever read in the EU.. But thats just me.
 
In the SW threads I don't get all the hate for the Expanded Universe. People complain about how Lucas ruined SW, then they either don't like or are dismissive of the EU. So who do you think is the new authority on SW? All the new SW is EU unless the story comes from George Lucas personally according to Lucasfilm's policy. The people writing the new movies and cartoons are doing exactly what the EU authors and game creators have been doing a LOT longer. Most people who have read the EU stuff can give you a list of books and games that are better than the Prequels, which these same people despise, yet they hate the EU because Lucas didn't show it in a movie.
So you have this:

George Lucas created the OT - great
EU is created, but it's no good because Lucas didn't personally create it.
George Lucas created the Prequels- ruined everyone's lives, hence Lucas is crazy and anything he touches is awful now.
For some reason the EU is still bad because Lucas didn't create it and put it in a movie, but Lucas is crazy and everything he does is bad.

It's not as simple as that for me.

As has been stated, there's good stuff in the EU, but there's also a LOT of garbage. I read just about every book from the Zahn trilogy up through the Black Fleet Crisis book. I kept hoping the series would get back to the quality that Zahn wrote, but it just never did. It never felt like Star Wars to me. So, I choose to ignore large portions of it. I still enjoy other portions, though. The original KOTOR comics from Dark Horse, the Goodwin/Williamson comics from the 80s, Zahn's books and some others in the EU novel series, hell, even some of the games out there, all were entertaining and fun and I incorporate them into my experience of Star Wars.

The real problem comes from Lucas himself. In essence, he destroyed the notion that there is some "official" version of Star Wars due to a lot of licensing of crappy product, and his own mucking about with the story and telling a REALLY unsatisfying story in the prequels.

As has been stated, in my youth, Lucas was just this amazing visionary who could do no wrong. He did two amazing trilogies and...that was about it, really. With the Special Editions and PT, though, and particularly with his "revisionist history" approach to the special editions and the phrase "I always intended...." I became really disillusioned. Rodneyfaile said that it feels like the TRUE Star Wars is just...gone. That's about how I feel. And Lucas was instrumental in its dismantling.

First, with the SEs, he undid character arcs, changed things that seemed arbitrary and random, added scenes that really added nothing to the film (the Jabba/Han scene in ANH, for example, lifts a good portion of its dialogue from the Greedo scene). He justified this by saying that what we were seeing was what he "always intended" to do. Even some of the DVD releases with their OBVIOUS technical flaws were passed off as "Working as intended." Or "Feature, not a bug."

With the PT, he told, in my opinion, a story that was not what I was interested in or envisioned as the story of this great war that led to the destruction of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire. But again, it was what he "always intended" to do, apparently. As a result, the PT ended up feeling a lot like the crappy aspects of the EU.

But wait. This is GEORGE LUCAS OFFICIAL material, right? That means it HAS to be taken seriously, right?


Well, that's where I decided to part company with Star Wars in an "official" sense. In the early and mid 2000s, I was bitter about what had happened with Star Wars. The versions of the OT that I loved and had grown up with were being dismantled, and Lucas was flat-out refusing to release them at all. That version of Star Wars, he said, was dead, and sorry-but-not-sorry if you fell in love with this flawed version that he "never" intended to make. They were "his stories," so the rest of us can just suck it. That was the attitude. Then he relented a bit and put the OT out on DVD. Oh happy day! Except, wait a second, it's just a crappy Laserdisc rip, and you can get a better quality version of that off of Ebay without the SEs!!! WTF?!

Couple this with a focus on licensed products that were oriented exclusively around Jedi and Prequel-era stuff, and I just...gave up on Star Wars altogether. It wasn't until I finally decided to approach Star Wars from my own perspective that I was able to enjoy taht again. What that meant was picking and choosing those elements I liked, and ignoring/discarding the rest.

With the Disney purchase of the franchise, to me, it breaks the notion that there is anything canonical about what is handed down from on high. Although admittedly, I was moving in that direction anyway. "Canon" is no longer "What George Lucas says" plus whatever Leland Chee determines based on some hierarchy of other materials (e.g. "Well, the radio dramas trump the novels, but only for the original films. The EU novels are below all of that, and the comic books are below the EU novels, so this is GCFI-Canon or whatever."). This is why I say Lucas is just another EU author to me now. His word is no longer the final say, either for me, or for the Disney Corporation. The same way I can say "Nah. The Vong thing didn't happen and Chewie's still alive," and the same way I can dream up my own version of the Clone Wars and the PT because it's a hell of a lot more entertaining than the crap Lucas offered, I can do that with ANYTHING related to Star Wars. Star Wars is now MINE. I decide what is and isn't canonical for me, not Lucas, not Disney, not anyone else. I incorporate what I want and I dump the rest.

If Lucas had not done some really unsatisfying stuff in the last 15-ish years with the franchise, I might still look to him for guidance, but while he (and others) created this terrific universe, he hasn't shown himself to be a good steward of that universe in my opinion. In that respect, he is now just another author in a line of authors creating uninteresting stuff with the Star Wars logo on it. It's not even that I hate him or the EU as a whole. I just don't like a lot of the stuff that's there, and see no reason to pay attention to it.
 
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I choose to look at the EU in tandem with the movies all as canon, whether it's officially official or not, until a movie contradicts something specifically. So if in Episode VII they say the Vong war didn't happen, then it will be wiped from my canon. The novels, comics, etc. have their merits and their faults, but all together it is the story of that galaxy far, far away.

That's me, but I recognize that we each make our own decision on the subject, and as long as people don't try to tell me I'm wrong about my own truth, I accept it.
 
Yeah, count me as a fan of the EU but I also don't consider it canon. What I am not a fan off is EU supporters who demand LucasFilm acknowledge it.
 
I like to see the EU as canon and the same universe. I like to think that the story beyond the OT actually went somewhere beyond what we saw. Whether the EU is regarded as canon or if it is or isn't official(which it isn't),I don't really care,it's all just fiction anyways.

It's just more fun for me to regard it as canon (I know it isn't)
 
I agree with Solo4114 and do the same--I just take from it what I want and (for me) the rest doesn't exist. I think this is really the only way one can still enjoy SW.
 
I agree with Solo4114 and do the same--I just take from it what I want and (for me) the rest doesn't exist. I think this is really the only way one can still enjoy SW.

There's such a breadth of material, and so much of it of varying levels of content, and the guy who created the universe himself has contradicted himself so many times at this point, that it seems to me that the best approach is to simply make your own choice as a consumer on what you want to incorporate into your own story. If that's anything and everything with the logo, ok, go for it. That's your call. If it's only the stuff you like, that's cool too. But at this point, to me at least, Star Wars is bigger than its creators -- whoever they are. It's a shared cultural phenomenon with a common baseline. The experience of someone who consumes literally ALL Star Wars content will necessarily be different from that of someone who'se only seen the movies -- and even that begs the question of "When did you see them, and which version did you see?"

This is why when people say "But Lucas said..." I just don't care anymore. Once he showed he couldn't remain consistent and would override and/or make stuff up to suit his own needs, I decided that it's silly to (seriously) treat his words as quasireligious. I mean, we even refer to stuff as "canonical" or "apocryphal." Or, in the case of the Holiday Special, "heresy." :) I suppose if we maintain the quasireligious take on things...I'm more of a Star Wars Protestant than a Star Wars Catholic; I don't recognize any authority greater than myself to determine my personal experience of Star Wars. I don't treat Lucas, LFL (or Disney now) as the entities which determine what is and isn't "official." I make my own decisions based on what's out there.
 
My problem with the PT trilogy is not so much the tone or direction that Lucas took with so much that he seemed to have forgotten nearly everything he wrote for the OT and decided to just write the PT without re-reading his OT scripts and notes or even watching any of the movies again. It's like he had the attitude that since he was the one who wrote/created Star Wars there was no need for him to refresh his memory on what went on in the OT.

As for canon, I was always under the impression that what's canon is not what comes from George himself but what's actually seen on screen, big or small, although I think we can all make an exception for the Christmas Special, the Droids cartoon, and the Ewok movie.
 
I don't see anyone hating the EU.

I do see plenty saying they don't care if the ST ignores it. I'm one of those. It was to fill a gap when there were no plans for anymore movies. EVERY book was written with the foreknowledge that none of it was canon and if there were movies they'd likely be ignored and if GL/LFL wished, they COULD take things from those books, but they were not obligated to in any way.

That was made clear, publicly, before the first book was released and I read all the books I did knowing that.

Aside from that, I've got no problem with the EU. As noted elesewhere, there was some good and some bad.
 
I think that a lot of the EU is quite bad.. while there is some that is interesting.
I personally hate the whole Yuzhaan Vong business because I don't think that it has a place in the Star Wars universe. I have not read Truce at Bakura, The Courtship of Princess Leia or Darksaber... but I have heard that they are pretty bad and worthy of dislike.

Among the EU, I feel there are some books and some elements that are more official than others, in order:
1. The novels that were pre/post the PT movies, that tie the movies together: Cloak of Deception, The Gathering Storm, Labyrinth of Evil. The Rise of Darth Vader.
These are well integrated with the movies, the comic books and Genndy Tartakovsky's "Clone Wars" cartoon.

2. The Skywalker and Organa-Solo families. Luke marries Mara, have son Ben. Han and Leia have children Jacen, Jaina and Anakin. I am referring to the characters because they appear in so many of them - not that the books with them in should be valued higher because the characters are in them.

3. The X-wing series of books and comic books, about the Rogue Squadron fighting various the remainder of the Empire and various warlords. Wedge Antilles, Mirax Terrik, Corran Horn, Kell Tanier etc... The first books should be valued higher, I think. The book about the Three Musketeer-planet is a bit too weird.

4. Shadows of the Empire. Book, video game (and more? what?) with the same story.

5. Kyle Katarrn. Qu Rahn. Video game series. Book adaptations. Very popular at the time.
 
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