Stop recasters on Ebay with the VERO Programme

[wilysteve]

Hello to all. This is my first topic here and I'm hoping it will be a helpfull one

Like everyone here I am completely against recasters. A couple of months ago I was unfortunate enough to encounter one.

This guy purchased a bust from me on Ebay. It broke in the post and I gave him his money back(including postage.). A few weeks later I was informed by a fellow ebayer that my work had been copied. The guy had taken a mould of the face and was now selling very bad plaque versions about once a week. I'm still not sure as to whether or not he broke the original, but even if he didn't, what he did do was bad enough.

I contacted some representatives on Ebay Live Chat and was directed to the VERO Programme. 2 or 3 days after faxing them all of the details, the listing in question was removed and all of the bidders were informed as to why.

The thing that suprised me the most was that I did not need copyright or a trademark of any kind. They simply acted to protect my intellectual property and I now have alot more confidence selling on Ebay.

I should also say that the bust was a sculpture I had done of Arnie as the Terminator from T3, so it seems that even if the work is not conceptually yours but is your interpretation, you are still protected.

I really hope this information helps as I've read so many horror stories here before, and I know now first hand just how upsetting this experience can be.

If you do need to contact them I believe their email is vero@ebay.com

Steve.

 

[Blad]

Very interesting

 

[SiR-ROUND]

That's great news. Especially the fact that they don't think your harming any copyrights yourself. AND they take your word for it also.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[juno]

I've known about the VERO stuff for a while. I have been VERO-ed a couple of times (for selling MY own "interpretation" of the various Harry Potter props). When you're VERO-ed, you're encouraged to report other infringers.

 

[SFPROPS]

Seems like a "cluster foxtrot" just waiting to happen.

What's to stop some idiot from documenting HIS replica (that he recast) as the "original", submitting it to VERO, and stopping everyone else - including the original artist from selling the item in question. Based on the amount of investigation Ebay apparently does (and can do given the material), it would appear to be a "he said, she said" situation.

Or, someone who is anti-recast crazy putting out VERO requests every time something that even LOOKS like his original ends up on Ebay. There are people who will accuse any competitor of "recasting" if they offer something similar, without clear cut evidence.

I'm just going to wait and watch this blow-up. Don't mean to be a killjoy, but...it seems obvious that the design of this program invites abuse. I've seen even studios abuse the system with impunity, so I can't believe dishonest people who would think they have nothing to lose will NOT do the same and worse.

 

[Hellclaw 01]

I agree this is a bad idea. Just because you make a replica of a prop doesn't give you any "rights" to it.

The VERO program is in place to protect creators of ORIGINAL works. Replicas made by fans just do not fall into this category no matter what your argument may be.

Recasting and recasters suck, but IMO this would be the wrong way to handle it. As SFPROPS said, if this type of action gets started, what is to prevent the recasters from VEROing the original makers of the piece?

This could lead to huge confusion in the marketplace, closer scrutiny from the studios, and lots of suspended eBay accounts of good and honest sellers.

 

[wilysteve]

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SiR-ROUND Posted Today, 01:22 PM
That's great news. Especially the fact that they don't think your harming any copyrights yourself. AND they take your word for it also.

Thanks for sharing.
[/b]

My pleasure. It does seem to be a very good programme.

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juno Posted Today, 01:52 PM
I've known about the VERO stuff for a while. I have been VERO-ed a couple of times (for selling MY own "interpretation" of the various Harry Potter props). When you're VERO-ed, you're encouraged to report other infringers.
[/b]

I'm sorry to hear that Juno. Were you offered any way of responding to them? In this instance it does sound very unfair.

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SFPROPS Posted Today, 01:58 PM
Seems like a "cluster foxtrot" just waiting to happen.

What's to stop some idiot from documenting HIS replica (that he recast) as the "original", submitting it to VERO, and stopping everyone else - including the original artist from selling the item in question. Based on the amount of investigation Ebay apparently does (and can do given the material), it would appear to be a "he said, she said" situation.

Or, someone who is anti-recast crazy putting out VERO requests every time something that even LOOKS like his original ends up on Ebay. There are people who will accuse any competitor of "recasting" if they offer something similar, without clear cut evidence.

I'm just going to wait and watch this blow-up. Don't mean to be a killjoy, but...it seems obvious that the design of this program invites abuse. I've seen even studios abuse the system with impunity, so I can't believe dishonest people who would think they have nothing to lose will NOT do the same and worse.
[/b]

I'll admit that there do seem to be some fine lines that could be crossed quite easily. I am not sure of their process. All I can say before this does 'blow-up' is that I did have to write a three page fax with all of the information regarding the one and only transaction between us before they responded. It was irefutable proof that he had stolen the work from me, but, like you say, I did not have to prove that I had sculpted this piece originally. Thats not to say that they only supposed I did, however, as there are many ways in which they may have come to their decision.

I'm not saying that its perfect, but its a start. I'm sure that alot of dishonest people will see it as another tool for them, but I'd like to look at it from a more positive side. For me its a step in the right direction. Its nice to know that there is some way of protecting your work without having to afford a copyright. Its very nice to know that theres some way of stopping recasters.

Having said that though, I would have liked them to have asked for more evidence that I originally produced this piece. Hopefully they will keep trying to make it a little more secure.

 

[LordVdr]

Yep, recasting does suck for the original propmaker, but if you're going to sell your work on eBay or any other public place, you have to be prepared to accept that it may very well get recast and sold by someone else. If the thought of this happening is just too unbearable, don't sell the piece. Make yourself one and rub it in everyone else's face.

I applaud eBay for it's efforts, but I agree that the VERO program could be used against legit propmakers.

 

[wilysteve]

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Hellclaw 01 Posted Today, 02:13 PM
I agree this is a bad idea. Just because you make a replica of a prop doesn't give you any "rights" to it.

The VERO program is in place to protect creators of ORIGINAL works. Replicas made by fans just do not fall into this category no matter what your argument may be.

Recasting and recasters suck, but IMO this would be the wrong way to handle it. As SFPROPS said, if this type of action gets started, what is to prevent the recasters from VEROing the original makers of the piece?

This could lead to huge confusion in the marketplace, closer scrutiny from the studios, and lots of suspended eBay accounts of good and honest sellers.
[/b]

Sorry Hellclaw, I was writing as you were posting.

Maybe there are some recasts that it will work for, and others that it will not. But I don't think it should be ruled out just because it can be abused. What programme can't be these days.

I'm advertising it on this community because I know that everybody here is anti-recasting. I would not advertise it in a place where I thought dishonest people would take notice. It is a tool to be used wisely, and only if you are certain that you are a victim. There are a lot of people out there who have been victimised by recasters that feel they have little or no voice. These are the people that I hope will see this thread.

The only other thing that I can say is that my work was a sculpture and because of this, it can be quite easily recognised next to another sculpture. Whereas more machined replicas could cause confusion as alot of them may be indistinguishable. Nevertheless, I don't think that we should forget that any replica is still only an interpretation of what was on screen, and so the original maker of the replica still has intellectual rights over their interpretation. I believe that this may be a way to enforce them if necassary. But again I would stress, only if you were sure that it is your work that has been copied.

 

[mgr]

This program is going to backfire on ebay. Everyone is going to start "VEROing" and soon there will be no way to sell any of your interpretations.

 

[wilysteve]

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LordVdr Posted Today, 02:43 PM
Yep, recasting does suck for the original propmaker, but if you're going to sell your work on eBay or any other public place, you have to be prepared to accept that it may very well get recast and sold by someone else. If the thought of this happening is just too unbearable, don't sell the piece. Make yourself one and rub it in everyone else's face.

I applaud eBay for it's efforts, but I agree that the VERO program could be used against legit propmakers.

[/b]

Damn, I've got to learn to type faster. Always one step behind :lol

I was prepared for it, but it still hurt. For alot of people, including myself, this is one of the best, if not only, ways to directly sell your work. Although I am greatful for the steps that Ebay are taking, I think that it is only fair to expect some kind of protection.

 

[micdavis]

You have no more right to sell your "interpretation" than your recaster did.

To call down any "authorities" onto this is foolhearty at best.

Please don't shine a light on this hobby any more than necessary.

 

[wilysteve]

Not again. :lol

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mgr Posted Today, 03:23 PM
This program is going to backfire on ebay. Everyone is going to start "VEROing" and soon there will be no way to sell any of your interpretations.
[/b]

I hope you're wrong MGR.

I'll catch up in a minute.

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micdavis Posted Today, 03:25 PM

You have no more right to sell your "interpretation" than your recaster did.

To call down any "authorities" onto this is foolhearty at best.

Please don't shine a light on this hobby any more than necessary
[/b]

I'm not sure what you mean??

My work was my work and there really is no other way to look at it. It was a sculpted likeness of Arnold Scwarzenegger. It was alot of hard work. In fact it is not a hobby, it is a job. I am doing commissions based on this kind of work. A very HONEST living. It is the only way that I can afford to practice to be able to one day work for Tussauds or in films. I take umbridge sir.

 

[rollerboi]

I have to agree with micdavis on this one.

Granted, there are some items that may work better than others, like sculptures, but.. in general, my feeling is that this is a slippery slope. Very slippery.

Also, don't the studios own the likenesses of the actors in a certain movie? Or the actors themselves retain the rights to their own likenesses? So even commissioned works could be on the sketchy side of copyright law, although I don't claim to understand that arena. I'll let others more well-versed than I chime in.

 

[Hellclaw 01]

What MicDavis means is that although its your sculpture, you have no rights to produce a likeness of Arnold.

 

[wilysteve]

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rollerboi Posted Today, 03:48 PM
I have to agree with micdavis on this one.

Granted, there are some items that may work better than others, like sculptures, but.. in general, my feeling is that this is a slippery slope. Very slippery.

Also, don't the studios own the likenesses of the actors in a certain movie? Or the actors themselves retain the rights to their own likenesses? So even commissioned works could be on the sketchy side of copyright law, although I don't claim to understand that arena. I'll let others more well-versed than I chime in.
[/b]

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Hellclaw 01 Posted Today, 03:48 PM
What MicDavis means is that although its your sculpture, you have no rights to produce a likeness of Arnold.

[/b]

I am unsure of this as well. A very sketchy area indeed. All that I know is that it is alot of work and it takes alot of passion. This particular piece was definately deemed to be my intellectual property by the VERO programme, and this is also what I believe it to be. But thats not what I wanted this thread to be about. I just wanted to help...

 

[spinner44.com]

Yeah VERO is nice especially when some one is doing it to spite you. Believe me, I've felt that pain. I totally understand the reason for the VERO program. ItÂ’s just a shame when other sellers or those who what to give you grief abuse it.

 

[Rogue Studios]

Just be careful for what you wish for. There is a bigger picture to this, considering this board was established to not only talk about replicas but make them too.

Lee

 

[D713]

As eloquently positioned before, this is a bad thing for our culture.

Much like the government...it means well, but when the good folks of the community stop policing themselves the government (VERO in this case) has to step in. There is nothing that can be made worse then having the government step in. Bringing attention to a few bad apples can have severe consequences to the rest of us who help each other out on a simple level.

That is the beauty of the "commons" of the RPF. We can bring to light those persons of ill repute. Further, those that sell on Ebay, or buy for that matter, must follow one of the soundest rules of the internet...Caveat Emptor.

my $.025742 cents.

D

 

[TheSt.LouisKid]

I had planned on looking into this in case someone continued to sell copies of my work.

I had a case when a guy who was selling some replicas baselessly accused me of veroing him on some BR items which is odd since I obviously don't own BR. I guess I must have some strange magical power over ebay that makes them do anything I say. He went on to post a death threat and I had to get police involved. Sad when people substitute theory for fact when they have no facts.