Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)
- Thread starter Bryancd
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cboath
Master Member
Frankly, it's not a lesser fan or a lessening of anything. It's simply different. The 70's and early 80's were VERY different time. What people went through to be exposed to it then was vastly different than it was in 99 or today.
Being 20 years younger or whatever isn't being less of anything (other than age
), it's just a different experience.And again, when i said 'newer fans' - it was in reference to the studio aspect of caring less about the older fans and more about that 18-28 range or whatever. My belief is they cared much more about added people of that range who were not current fans and didn't really care if the existing fans were on board or not.
PantheraGem
Sr Member
The irony is that it only helps to have older fans on board.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Frankly, it's not a lesser fan or a lessening of anything. It's simply different. The 70's and early 80's were VERY different time. What people went through to be exposed to it then was vastly different than it was in 99 or today.
Being 20 years younger or whatever isn't being less of anything (other than age
And again, when i said 'newer fans' - it was in reference to the studio aspect of caring less about the older fans and more about that 18-28 range or whatever. My belief is they cared much more about added people of that range who were not current fans and didn't really care if the existing fans were on board or not.
Well, they probably thought they had lost you guys back in 97 when SE came out, or in 99 when the PT started.
But I can see why they aimed at a newer age demographic. There are three generations, each with their own trilogy. These films are being made for children, so they are going to be naturally aimed at this third generation. "But in the end, every generation needs to have it said in their own language."- George Lucas
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Well, they probably thought they had lost you guys back in 97 when SE came out, or in 99 when the PT started.
No, that's delusional, revisionist crap.
Joek3rr
Master Member
It was just a joke........good grief
G W Zipper
Sr Member
I would hope my caretakers would know better. Just SW 1977, over and over again for the first time.
They admitted that they never had answers to the questions they raised on that show. It was just a tactic to keep their viewership and ratings up. Star Wars 9 will likely be no different.
Or the answers will be the very ones people have been predicting from the beginning and touted to have been the plan from the get go. I have lost all faith that they will come up with a satisfactory ending to this trilogy and even more so to the saga as a 9 episode series, which this is supposed to do.
Or the answers will be the very ones people have been predicting from the beginning and touted to have been the plan from the get go. I have lost all faith that they will come up with a satisfactory ending to this trilogy and even more so to the saga as a 9 episode series, which this is supposed to do.
Exactly, they did have some plans with the show but those plans never came true in the next seasons... their visual dictionary patches up most of the questions
Maybe Disney will do the same with a trilogy of books to answer all the questions.. after the hit they took from Solo I think they are gonna try anything to make a buck
jhazard
Sr Member
That's their mistake. By trying to attract new fans who may or may not see the movie, they crap on OT and PT fans - fans who kept the franchise alive for decades, building models, props, playing the games, cosplay...Well, they probably thought they had lost you guys back in 97 when SE came out, or in 99 when the PT started.
But I can see why they aimed at a newer age demographic. There are three generations, each with their own trilogy. These films are being made for children, so they are going to be naturally aimed at this third generation. "But in the end, every generation needs to have it said in their own language."- George Lucas
Star Wars never went away or needed recussitation... It maintained a place in pop culture DESPITE anyone's feelings of the special editions and the PT. The animated Clone Wars seems pretty well received by most fans. I remember remarks about the opening line in TFA "this will begin to set things right" being a not so obtuse dig at the PT...
Surely they could have attracted new fans while keeping the faith. The fan base was built in already. And sorry, it's not made for kids - I read that the demographic for the fan base was late teens to mid 30's, or something along those lines (it's NOT specifically for 12 years olds, like Resistance).
It's like they didn't really comprehend what they were buying... Given that, I can sort of understand why they made the decisions the did. Doesn't absolve them of anything though
The trilogy is beyond redemption, in my eyes, at this point. I'm curious to see what JJ comes up with, he is clever, if he can invent a Rosetta Stone to his mystery box, it may surprise people, but given they've fudged two times so far, I'm skeptical.
Solos blaster
Sr Member
And that is complete BS to do. I shouldn't have to read ancillary materials to complete the main story. They should only be there to expand on the story or create new adventures, but not to complete the original narrative from the Theater. If I have to read every book and comic, watch every cartoon or short, surrounding an event because they couldn't or won't explain or intelligibly expose(sp?) it in a two hour movie, then I'm wasting my time with the movie to begin with.
The target audience may have been 12 years old boys during the era of the originals but honestly all of the live action films have essentially been targeting a built in audience and the vast majority of them are adults. Most kids are into it because their parents introduced them to it.
Star Wars has lasted this long because it's themes are timeless and are always relevant no matter who you are and where you come from. Trying to change those themes in order to adhere to a trend in popularity (or try and convince the audience that the writing is clever aka Johnson) is why there is such a backlash and it's the best way to ensure that those installments will not stand the test of time because they will be mired in the present. Trends come and go but good writing sticks.
Star Wars has lasted this long because it's themes are timeless and are always relevant no matter who you are and where you come from. Trying to change those themes in order to adhere to a trend in popularity (or try and convince the audience that the writing is clever aka Johnson) is why there is such a backlash and it's the best way to ensure that those installments will not stand the test of time because they will be mired in the present. Trends come and go but good writing sticks.
That's their mistake. By trying to attract new fans who may or may not see the movie, they crap on OT and PT fans - fans who kept the franchise alive for decades, building models, props, playing the games, cosplay...
Star Wars never went away or needed recussitation... It maintained a place in pop culture DESPITE anyone's feelings of the special editions and the PT. The animated Clone Wars seems pretty well received by most fans. I remember remarks about the opening line in TFA "this will begin to set things right" being a not so obtuse dig at the PT...
Surely they could have attracted new fans while keeping the faith. The fan base was built in already. And sorry, it's not made for kids - I read that the demographic for the fan base was late teens to mid 30's, or something along those lines (it's NOT specifically for 12 years olds, like Resistance).
It's like they didn't really comprehend what they were buying... Given that, I can sort of understand why they made the decisions the did. Doesn't absolve them of anything though
The trilogy is beyond redemption, in my eyes, at this point. I'm curious to see what JJ comes up with, he is clever, if he can invent a Rosetta Stone to his mystery box, it may surprise people, but given they've fudged two times so far, I'm skeptical.
I think you hit the nail on the head. In this scenario, I see Disney being like the rich idiot uncle. People say to him “buy this, it makes money, and it is a juggernaut!” and the rich idiot uncle goes “okay, I’ll buy it” without even understanding what made this money-making juggernaut what it is and the dynamics of its fandom to the films.
I have gotten into arguments many times with somewhat new SW fans since TLJ came out. And I do not diminish their opinion of the film, although I do think with a bit more exposure to the franchise they may come a little closer to having the same perspective on some of the “unforgiveable” sins commited in TLJ that I do (for example the Holdo thing with jumping to hyperspace through the dreadnaught).
Usually at some point these newer fans, having felt like I was slighting them in some way, will say something along the lines of “well, that’s just your opinion and your opinion doesn’t matter any more than anyone else’ opinion does”. And on one level that is true, but on another level, and this gets back to the rich idiot uncle bit, it most certainly is not true.
From the subjective standpoint, yes, me disliking TLJ does not mean any more than someone (and I swear I am not talking about anyone in this thread or on theRPF) who is a newer fan absolutely loving everything about it. However, from a business standpoint, my opinion means far more than a new fans’ opinion means. A new fan, loves it, maybe sees it twice in the theater, maybe three times, can’t wait for the bluray to be released and maybe picks up a figure or two. When it is a SW film I like, I will see it in the theater anywhere from 6-10 times, possibly more. I will buy most every figure, probably multiples of some, I will have the shirts, a poster or two, and every damn prop from the movie (or at least be working on getting them). From a business standpoint, my opinion is actually worth about 4-8 times more than a new fan’s opinion. Me liking the movie is the same as (on average) 6 new fans liking the movie.
And this is precisely why the TLJ fell off so fast, and why Solo was boycotted successfully and why Kathleen Kennedy, who above all people, having been with LFL basically since inception, should have known this fact and led Disney intelligently as to how to navigate and further build the brand, and ultimately should be fired and embarassed for being so monumentally unaware after all this time.
As many have said before:
1) You don’t have to kill the past to move forward; you just have to be good at writing and directing
2) This franchise never got a captain to keep things on track
3) Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face
4) The proposed film schedule set by Disney was not manageable causing major QC issues with narrative and ultimately left us with shallow characters and films
5) Shoehorning todays issues into a space opera that people go to in order to escape the daily crap we deal with in life is always a stupid idea, and if you are going to shoehorn things in, you better do it in a remarkable and integral way
7) Only hire directors that are aware it is a Star Wars film first and so-and-so-director’s film second
8) Once you realize how you badly you have ****** up, don’t blame your collossal disaster on the people who noticed just how bad it is
I’m hoping after IX they are able to retcon the Holdo thing. That one moment has destroyed not only TLJ but the point of every battle in every previous SW film, and unless there are no more space battles in future space opera films under the moniker “Star WARS”, it has ruined the point of any battle in those films too. Without retconning it, the SW film saga has reached an impasse. Great job Rian you-absolute-piece-of-****-lazy-assed-writing-hack Johnson!
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Solos blaster
Sr Member
And it ain't kids buying the toys, building/buying the props, buying every format the movies come out on, creating new generations of fans when they have kids and show it to them...that built in audience is what kept it alive.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Kill the past to move forward? Okay, they killed off Han Solo, Harrison has been wanting that for years. And they had him go out in absolutely amazing fashion, trying to bring his son back. Secondly, the killed off Luke. Why do people complain about this? He's coming back as a freakin' Force Ghost!!!!!!!!!!!
The film schedule caused problems? I don't think so. Marvel is putting way more films in a years time than Star Wars. And heck it's a lot of the same guys working on those films.
They shoehorned today's issues? They did? I got an anti-war profiteering message from TLJ.
And the Holdo maneuver didn't break the canon. It's been said a hundred times now, it was the Raddus's super duper one-of-a-kind shields that did the damage. The Raddus itself just blew up. How do I know this? Because of the books. Oh, you might say if it's not explained in the movie, then it's not good writing. What needs to be explained? I figured it out in the movie theater while I was watching the movie! It wasn't hard. I figured that whitish/blue energy must have come from the shields and the explosion from the ship.
Joek3rr
Master Member
I'm afraid the original films were written for children, George even said so himself.
go to 3:02
One key element and theme that is entirely absent from this trilogy is the imminent threat of the Dark Side and one of many reasons I can't get invested in this trilogy.
Rey is never once tempted to use the Dark Side. Ever. So what is the threat? Where is the danger? It doesn't exist for her and subsequently doesn't exist for the audience. We know she is going to win. We know she will get out of a jam without anyone's help. So why should I care about her? Of course our protagonist is going to win in the end, but there should be moments where even if for a little while, we fear that they might not make it out alive.
If the Force itself is her mentor and basically showing her everything she needs to know, then why did Luke and Anakin and Obi-Wan need to be taught things by Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn? Why didn't they just automatically know it? Sure they may have had an instinct for it, but those instincts needed focus and discipline to be utilized effectively which means that they needed to be honed by teaching.
Why have mentors in the first place if the Force (an impersonal mystical energy) is Rey's personal guide to ITSELF?
What makes Rey so special that she is exempt from having to be taught just like all of the other Jedi in history needed to be?
Anakin was the Chosen One who was supposed to bring balance to the Force and may have even been created by the Force itself, and yet even HE needed a teacher to help him understand things. Fans hated this idea too. That the Force created Anakin because it meant that it was no longer an impartial energy but had a will of it's own.
But Rey needs no one but herself. When Luke refused to teach her she just jumps in and thinks that she is going to redeem Ben Solo on her own.
Sure Rey goes to Luke looking for answers and he doesn't give her any other than that the Jedi were evil and need to die. Sure she has the books that she can read (assuming they will never explain her being able to decipher ancient texts and how paper books can last thousands of years.) But then again, whenever she needs to learn how to do something, she just does it. She doesn't need any sort of advice or guidance. She just knows it.
Considering that she was literally scavenging for scraps of food only days before and now she can command things to her grasp with a thought, and influence people's minds with a thought, and resist a trained dark side user's mental probing, you mean it would never occur to her that hey, maybe I could kill everyone and just take over everything with this new cool power I have an unnatural mastery of? That thought never crossed her mind? I'm sure it would have crossed most people's if they had her upbringing and her immense power.
You see how the logic just doesn't add up here?
To my mind it's kind of insulting to my intelligence that I am TOLD to just accept that she has this ability without her being taught a single thing about it or the dangers of it because everyone else before her needed that training but SHE doesn't. It just contradicts all that came before her.
Some have made the argument that she is searching only to find the answers in herself, which on the surface may seem profound, but it's really not when you think it through. This premise states that she must not rely on others to rescue the galaxy but do it herself without anyone's help.
So what's stopping her from saving the galaxy?
Why bother having allies at all?
What is it that's holding her back?
If there is nothing stopping her from saving the galaxy other than her learning to believe in herself, then there really is no conflict at all and this whole story is kind of worthless.
Rey is never once tempted to use the Dark Side. Ever. So what is the threat? Where is the danger? It doesn't exist for her and subsequently doesn't exist for the audience. We know she is going to win. We know she will get out of a jam without anyone's help. So why should I care about her? Of course our protagonist is going to win in the end, but there should be moments where even if for a little while, we fear that they might not make it out alive.
If the Force itself is her mentor and basically showing her everything she needs to know, then why did Luke and Anakin and Obi-Wan need to be taught things by Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn? Why didn't they just automatically know it? Sure they may have had an instinct for it, but those instincts needed focus and discipline to be utilized effectively which means that they needed to be honed by teaching.
Why have mentors in the first place if the Force (an impersonal mystical energy) is Rey's personal guide to ITSELF?
What makes Rey so special that she is exempt from having to be taught just like all of the other Jedi in history needed to be?
Anakin was the Chosen One who was supposed to bring balance to the Force and may have even been created by the Force itself, and yet even HE needed a teacher to help him understand things. Fans hated this idea too. That the Force created Anakin because it meant that it was no longer an impartial energy but had a will of it's own.
But Rey needs no one but herself. When Luke refused to teach her she just jumps in and thinks that she is going to redeem Ben Solo on her own.
Sure Rey goes to Luke looking for answers and he doesn't give her any other than that the Jedi were evil and need to die. Sure she has the books that she can read (assuming they will never explain her being able to decipher ancient texts and how paper books can last thousands of years.) But then again, whenever she needs to learn how to do something, she just does it. She doesn't need any sort of advice or guidance. She just knows it.
Considering that she was literally scavenging for scraps of food only days before and now she can command things to her grasp with a thought, and influence people's minds with a thought, and resist a trained dark side user's mental probing, you mean it would never occur to her that hey, maybe I could kill everyone and just take over everything with this new cool power I have an unnatural mastery of? That thought never crossed her mind? I'm sure it would have crossed most people's if they had her upbringing and her immense power.
You see how the logic just doesn't add up here?
To my mind it's kind of insulting to my intelligence that I am TOLD to just accept that she has this ability without her being taught a single thing about it or the dangers of it because everyone else before her needed that training but SHE doesn't. It just contradicts all that came before her.
Some have made the argument that she is searching only to find the answers in herself, which on the surface may seem profound, but it's really not when you think it through. This premise states that she must not rely on others to rescue the galaxy but do it herself without anyone's help.
So what's stopping her from saving the galaxy?
Why bother having allies at all?
What is it that's holding her back?
If there is nothing stopping her from saving the galaxy other than her learning to believe in herself, then there really is no conflict at all and this whole story is kind of worthless.
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