Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Psab keel]

It wasn't some jam session where the stories for Marvel were wholly improvised on the fly.

It's really strange to me that you are convinced that the Marvel films were largely unplanned, and yet you think the ST was mapped out from the beginning.

 

[Joek3rr]

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Any response to that will be met with the usual "aha, so you didn't get your fanfic version so that's why you didn't like it!". Here's the thing, most people don't go to see a movie to see a movie they already have in their heads. It's the job of the filmmakers to come up with compelling and interesting movies, not the audience's. Let me respond with a question that is still within the realms of the movie: what does Luke achieve by staying away?

I assume you mean the battle of Crait? As that is what I was referring to.


One of the main points of TLJ is that Luke doesn't trust himself. So why would he put himself in such a situation that he might slip up and cause Ben harm? If Luke went there and confronted Ben in person. One of two would have been killed. Either Luke kills Ben. Or Ben kills Luke. What would be gained from Ben killing Luke other then further his journey in the dark side.

 

[Joek3rr]

It wasn't some jam session where the stories for Marvel were wholly improvised on the fly.

It's really strange to me that you are convinced that the Marvel films were largely unplanned, and yet you think the ST was mapped out from the beginning.

Of course it wasn't like that. I'm sure they had some broad strokes planned out, much like Star Wars. But people act like they planned out the whole thing. And that's just not true.

 

[Psab keel]

That's what we are saying. Marvel had the overarching story mapped out. That wasn't the case with the ST though.

 

[HeartBlade]

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No they dont have to hit every point. But they should hit some. And as it stands (if I understand this correctly) ROTJ leaves Luke hanging at the second threshold. There's no return home (ala Frodo), Luke returns with his new knowledge, he never returns with the boon. Which I would say in my opinion is act of not fighting. In TLJ Luke takes that act of not fighting to the extreme, until he comes to the realization he can balance himself. By not fighting yet still confronting his nephew and saving his sister. That's my interpretation.

Luke surrenders himself to the Force. He becomes one with the Force on his own volition.

Luke turning on Han or Leia sensing a hint of darkness would completely out of character.(and is not what happens between Luke and Ben) Luke reacting breifly to a vision, a threat to his loved ones, before coming to his senses is in character. Remember this isnt just some bad dream. This is vision of the future in the Force. They are incredibly visceral and emotional happenings. Luke would never consciously consider killing a friend or loved one. But add fear, which leads to anger, which leads to hate, and twisted by the dark side Luke becomes.

Remember Luke sensed the dark side within Ben for sometime. Yet he took no actions to harm him. He doesn't go bonkers and try to kill him just because he senses some darkness.(also Ben isn't a child, stop with the misinformation) It's when he looks inside his mind and finds out that Ben has completely fallen. And he's presented with a vision of the future. A future where Kylo Ren brings pain and destruction and the end of everything Luke loves.

Luke isn't afraid of Kylo. Luke is afraid of what the future could be.

mans to quote your favorite movie, “amazing, every word of what you just said...was wrong”

RotJ doesn’t leave Luke hanging. He goes back to the “old world” and with his family. It’s a sappy happy ending but it wasn’t some cliff hanger that had people demanding what happened next. We know Luke Leia and Han lives happily ever after, the end.

the answer was not no fighting but even someone who fell to the dark side can be redeemed and returned to the light. That was the whole focus of the discussion between Luke and Vader, Luke and the Emperor, Luke fighting Vader, and Vader killing the Emperor and admitting to Luke “you were right about me, you were right”. Even though everyone, including I, thought that I could never be redeemed and return from the dark side, you were right that people can. It’s why Yoda and the Jedi are so afraid of the dark side in PT, because they believe so strongly that once you go dark, you can’t come back which Luke proved wrong.

And even if we go by your understanding of Luke, your argument still doesn’t make sense. Luke sees darkness having been with Ben for a long time. He also has been with Vader quite a bit and sensed some light in Vader and believed he could be redeemed. Yet Ben could not and would bring untold destruction to the universe?

Again, this is a dude who wants to be Vader but can’t because there is too much light in him (TFA). Yes, based on YOUR interpretation, Luke is afraid of Kylo Ren because Kylo Ren is supposed to bring the destruction of everything he loves, hence why his instinctual solution is to kill him.

Ben cannot both be a force of malevolent darkness that is destined to destroy everything and also a conflicted force user who cannot reach Vader’s level, let alone the Emperors, because he has too much good and light conflicting within him. These are 2 different characters.

it also doesn’t help that Ben is consistently characterized as a talented force user but incompetent commander. That outburst in TFA slashing the console and his obsession with Vader was signifying his immaturity, wanting to be someone else instead of his own person. He is scolded like a little boy by Snoke in the opening of TLJ and redirects all of his military firepower from the strategic objective of wiping out the resistance to shoot at a junkyard ship (the falcon). You want me to believe that this child commander who may barely get to be an inquisitor in the old Galactic Empire and is surrounded by yahoos like General Hux is able to cause more destruction than the galactic empire which was led by Palpatine and Vader, 2 of the best dark force users, and ruthless and talented commanders like Tarkin?

Hence why the characterization and world building in ST just isn’t good. It doesn’t make sense how Snoke is able to singlehandidly fund the First Order and build Starkiller despite not having any prominence. How the first order, an order that seems to suck at strategy, is able to take over the galaxy in RoS. Why the New Democratic government doesn’t try to shut new power grabs like the First Order down and relied on Leia with a ragtag group to do the fighting. The premise just doesn’t make sense.

 

[HeartBlade]

Of course it wasn't like that. I'm sure they had some broad strokes planned out, much like Star Wars. But people act like they planned out the whole thing. And that's just not true.

if Rey Palpatine/Kenobi/Skywalker/nobody wasn’t penned in, that’s not direction, not a broad stroke. These 3 would be different characters with different challenges.

The fact that this board stoke wasn’t followed even if it was penned in is even more evident in the fact that Ben tells Rey she is a nobody in TLJ (and we can take it as true because Rey doesn’t argue despite also her dive into the force) and then is later the one to retcon that she is a Palpatine in RoS. At least have Luke or someone more trustworthy tell her and make it so it’s only a lie “from a certain point of view”.

I try not to analyze the ST too much because the more you push, the more the foundational cracks appear but yeah.

 

[jusdrewit]

I concur, if Rey's origin wasn't inked in from the get-go and was still possibly flip flopping from a Kenobi/Nobody/Palp during the creation of ST, then that's not 'broad strokes' but poor planning, direction and a massive disappointment to me, and many fans. Simply inexcusable.

 

[sztriki]

I assume you mean the battle of Crait? As that is what I was referring to.


One of the main points of TLJ is that Luke doesn't trust himself. So why would he put himself in such a situation that he might slip up and cause Ben harm? If Luke went there and confronted Ben in person. One of two would have been killed. Either Luke kills Ben. Or Ben kills Luke. What would be gained from Ben killing Luke other then further his journey in the dark side.

No in general, what does he achieve by staying on his island while galaxy is in flames?

Re Crait why would either of them dying end up being the ONLY solution? It's exactly like saying Luke going to Bespin can only end in Luke or Vader killing each other. The story is what the scriptwriter wants to write.

 

[Vlair]

I assume you mean the battle of Crait? As that is what I was referring to.


One of the main points of TLJ is that Luke doesn't trust himself. So why would he put himself in such a situation that he might slip up and cause Ben harm? If Luke went there and confronted Ben in person. One of two would have been killed. Either Luke kills Ben. Or Ben kills Luke. What would be gained from Ben killing Luke other then further his journey in the dark side.

So, not to get into the weeds of a very in depth argument, but why couldn't you have had a scene where Luke and Ben face off, and Luke doesn't give into his anger, reaffirming his status as a Jedi, and showing himself that he isn't going to give into fear and strike his nephew down, which is what he was running from in TLJ. He was scared he was going to become his father.

But what if you had it so Kylo and Luke fight, Luke disarms him, proving he is the better fighter, but then not striking down Kylo. It'll fuel Kylo's rage and humiliation, which is such a big core of his character, and let's Luke be the noble figure. And then he could turn off his lightsaber, and turn away. Kylo force pulls his lightsaber and goes to strike down Luke, while Rey watches. Now it's a mirror of Luke watching Ben get struck down by Vader. (It's like poetry, it rhymes). But Rey isn't Luke in ANH, she has more tools than he does. So she lunges forwards, and cut's Ben's hand off (again Mirroring Anakin saving Palpatine from Mace Windu in RotS, with the same saber.)

It would show that the pattern can be broken, it would put a nice crack in the relationship they were building between Ben and Rey (which is something I personally really enjoyed in TLJ) he would get a mechanical hand that would both echo Luke and Anakin, continuing the line, and would further all of the character's personal arcs. And would give them all somewhere to go.

Literally just made that up, but as an option.

 

[Joek3rr]

So, not to get into the weeds of a very in depth argument, but why couldn't you have had a scene where Luke and Ben face off, and Luke doesn't give into his anger, reaffirming his status as a Jedi, and showing himself that he isn't going to give into fear and strike his nephew down, which is what he was running from in TLJ. He was scared he was going to become his father.

But what if you had it so Kylo and Luke fight, Luke disarms him, proving he is the better fighter, but then not striking down Kylo. It'll fuel Kylo's rage and humiliation, which is such a big core of his character, and let's Luke be the noble figure. And then he could turn off his lightsaber, and turn away. Kylo force pulls his lightsaber and goes to strike down Luke, while Rey watches. Now it's a mirror of Luke watching Ben get struck down by Vader. (It's like poetry, it rhymes). But Rey isn't Luke in ANH, she has more tools than he does. So she lunges forwards, and cut's Ben's hand off (again Mirroring Anakin saving Palpatine from Mace Windu in RotS, with the same saber.)

It would show that the pattern can be broken, it would put a nice crack in the relationship they were building between Ben and Rey (which is something I personally really enjoyed in TLJ) he would get a mechanical hand that would both echo Luke and Anakin, continuing the line, and would further all of the character's personal arcs. And would give them all somewhere to go.

Literally just made that up, but as an option.

It doesn't work in my opinion for several reasons.

Firstly. This should be between Luke and Ben. Only them. Rey and Ben already had their moment. This is needs to stay between those two, and only those two.

Secondly it goes against everything Luke now stands for. Luke is going to best his nephew the same way he beat the Emperor. By not fighting. Luke doesn't fight anymore. And it's the one thing that Kylo can't fight against.

Thirdly. Ben isn't maimed. The whole of the Sequels is about trying to bring Ben back. Having him be injured, again, by Rey. Does not further that. With what we got, the only thing injured is Ben's pride.

 

[Joek3rr]

No in general, what does he achieve by staying on his island while galaxy is in flames?

Re Crait why would either of them dying end up being the ONLY solution? It's exactly like saying Luke going to Bespin can only end in Luke or Vader killing each other. The story is what the scriptwriter wants to write.

Peace, and enlightenment. He believes that galaxy truly better off, in the long term, without him, and without the Jedi. Yes a slightly misguided belief formed from his disillusionment. But nevertheless Luke has decided to not fight. Because that's the one thing the dark side can't fight against. He's going to win like he did in ROTJ, not by fighting, but by saving what he loves.

That's the beauty of the ending we get. Luke is able to confront his nephew and save his sister and her Resistance. All without fighting and going against his beliefs.

 

[Psab keel]

From a writing perspective why was this the ONLY option for the story to go? Is it because what had been established in TFA made this story choice inevitable or because this was all Rian could come up with? I'd say it's the latter.

What's to say Luke had anything at all to do with Bens turn? What if Ben had kept his allegiance to Snoke so secret that no one could have known? Then he mounted an attack on Luke and his academy that no one saw coming?

Again you are still running on the assumption that these script choices were inevitable rather than being open to the idea that there were other ways to answer these questions because you are so biased to love TLJ.

So it's not a matter of us trying to convince you of the possibilities as much as you being unwilling to accept anything that conflicts with the movie as it was presented and your unwavering defense of it. Which really says more about you than it does about us.

If Rian's movie had succeeded in convincing us to buy into it then we wouldn't be questioning it. That was his failure as a director and writer.

 

[sztriki]

Peace, and enlightenment. He believes that galaxy truly better off, in the long term, without him, and without the Jedi. Yes a slightly misguided belief formed from his disillusionment. But nevertheless Luke has decided to not fight. Because that's the one thing the dark side can't fight against. He's going to win like he did in ROTJ, not by fighting, but by saving what he loves.

That's the beauty of the ending we get. Luke is able to confront his nephew and save his sister and her Resistance. All without fighting and going against his beliefs.

Uh huh...I seem to remember him being tormented and wanting to die. That's very peaceful and enlightened. I also seem to remember that RJ said that he would love to jump back into action but truly believes that everyone is better off without him.
So again, the question was not how he feels and what he thinks but what does he objectively achieve by staying on the island and not helping his friends, how did disappearing and staying off help anyone? I'm specifically talking about the timeframe from his disappearence until let's say Rey sods off from Ireland to meet Kylo. Put Crait aside for this and just answer, what was the benefit of Luke staying out of the game given that TFA's title crawl even makes a point that the First Order rose in HIS ABSCENCE so surely things got worse and worse since his disappearence.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Quick someone find a diagram to explain why this trilogy makes sense!
I still haven't been able to convince my kid to watch this even for a laugh.

 

[Joek3rr]

Uh huh...I seem to remember him being tormented and wanting to die. That's very peaceful and enlightened. I also seem to remember that RJ said that he would love to jump back into action but truly believes that everyone is better off without him.
So again, the question was not how he feels and what he thinks but what does he objectively achieve by staying on the island and not helping his friends, how did disappearing and staying off help anyone? I'm specifically talking about the timeframe from his disappearence until let's say Rey sods off from Ireland to meet Kylo. Put Crait aside for this and just answer, what was the benefit of Luke staying out of the game given that TFA's title crawl even makes a point that the First Order rose in HIS ABSCENCE so surely things got worse and worse since his disappearence.

I'll let Rian answer that.

“The first thing I had to do when I was writing the script was figure out, okay, why is Luke on this island? … So, he knows his friends are fighting this good fight, he knows there’s peril out there in the galaxy, and he’s exiled himself way out here and taken himself out of it. So I had to figure out why. And I knew because its Luke Skywalker, who I grew up with as a hero, I knew the answer couldn’t be cowardice. I knew the answer had to be something active. He couldn’t just be hiding, and I knew it had to be something positive. He thinks he’s doing the right thing.

And that kind of led to the notion that he’s come to the conclusion from all the given evidence that the Jedi are not helping. They’re just perpetuating this kind of cycle, and that they need to go away so that the light can kind of rise from a more worthy source. And so suddenly then, that turned his exile from something where he’s hiding and avoiding responsibility, to him kind of taking the weight of the world on his shoulders and bearing this huge burden of knowing his friends are suffering. And because he thinks it’s a better, bigger thing for the galaxy, he’s choosing not to engage with it.”

And the light does arise from a more worthy source. Enter our Rey of light....

 

[sztriki]

You're worse than a politician when faced with a simple straight question. I'm assuming because you have no straight answer. I'm eager to be proven wrong. I said it and I'll say it again: I don't care what Luke thinks. I don't care what his belief is. What is the objective positive outcome of him staying away from everything during the events of pre-TFA, TFA and half of TLJ?

 

[Psab keel]

If the director couldn't convince us to buy into his own story, then how is a passionate fan going to convince us by endlessly regurgitating the same explanations?

Rians logic is flawed. It makes no sense. So endlessly repeating it does nothing for your argument.

 

[sztriki]

If the director couldn't convince us to buy into his own story, then how is a passionate fan going to convince us by endlessly regurgitating the same explanations?

Rians logic is flawed. It makes no sense. So endlessly repeating it does nothing for your argument.

This is exactly why I want his opinion on the matter and in the simplest way not some heady mumbojumbo from the bloke who wrote the story.

 

[Joek3rr]

You're worse than a politician when faced with a simple straight question. I'm assuming because you have no straight answer. I'm eager to be proven wrong. I said it and I'll say it again: I don't care what Luke thinks. I don't care what his belief is. What is the objective positive outcome of him staying away from everything during the events of pre-TFA, TFA and half of TLJ?

That the light would rise from a new source. Which it does. Rey.

 

[Joek3rr]

If the director couldn't convince us to buy into his own story, then how is a passionate fan going to convince us by endlessly regurgitating the same explanations?

Rians logic is flawed. It makes no sense. So endlessly repeating it does nothing for your argument.

Couldn't convince you. He convinced us.