Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
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Bigdaddy
Master Member
"I'll stay on this island so somebody else can deal with the danger"
Sorry, that's cowardice and shirking one's responsibility. Maybe Jake would do that but certainly not the Luke we last saw at the end of ROTJ.
Cue the "but OT Luke was a darkside monster that attempted murdeeerrrr!!!"
Sorry, that's cowardice and shirking one's responsibility. Maybe Jake would do that but certainly not the Luke we last saw at the end of ROTJ.
Cue the "but OT Luke was a darkside monster that attempted murdeeerrrr!!!"
sztriki
Sr Member
I did type up a rather lengthy response but decided to delete it.
I think this is the point where I say I give up the discussion on Star Wars. Not particularly cuz of Joker but just got tired of it. Thank you all, this is not ironic, I mean it.
At least I now have Dune to look forward to so hopefully that will occupy my scifi brain enough. ^_^
mattycsi
Master Member
Couldn't convince a large enough portion of the fanbase either. Hence why SW is in turmoil now.
All hopes now squarely on the Mandalorian's shoulders.
Then again I ask you. If you got everything you want out of this movie, then what is stopping you from endlessly enjoying it?
Why do you constantly act on the impulse to defend it the moment someone has a disparaging opinion of it?
If we're all wrong about TLJ, let us be wrong and live with the satisfaction that you're right. Or at the least be willing to concede that perhaps it's not the shining example of cinema that you uphold it to be, otherwise you're not going to gain any supporters.
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CT1138
Sr Member
In my experience, Facebook is both great and terrible for measuring SW fans. Some shitpost groups/pages garner a more "I hate it all after the OT" POV, where everything (including the OT) is in line to be shredded and nitpicked, but some trilogies more than others.
Other groups and pages garner a broader, and in my opinion, more true, side of the fandom. This site itself even garners and attracts a certain kind of fan, which is to be expected. Most of us here are major OT fans, because the OT used more found parts than machined parts, making the prop collecting a more collective effort. A more OT-centric opinion at the RPF is not unexpected, but I personally would not call it a completely unbiased voice in the SW fandom, when larger and more diversified (in opinion, age group, interest, etc) SW fan sites out there exist.
Another thing to remember is that LFL now under the House of Mouse is, at some level, our doing. Fans berated, hated, and harassed George Lucas into selling the franchise, because he just didn't have fun with it anymore. As they say, the grass is always greener, and now this is our penance for the fandom's treatment of Lucas during the PT era.
It's also not Rian's fault alone. He's shown he is a good director in other places. I really loved Knives Out for example. The problem for me lies with the fact that they had An Idea at best and No Plan at all for where they were going with the trilogy. And it's horrifically clear, both from the final product that we got, and from every interview that is done by basically everyone in the production, from actors to writers to directors to producers.
I understand that what they were going for was what they did with the original trilogy, where they had different directors for each and it gives each film it's own flavour. Sure. But the original trilogy was written predominantly by George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan, and overseen by George, so you have a continuous through line. He may not have had that planned out all in one go (That's a whole different Star Wars planning argument) but you had the same hand at the wheel the entire time. And they brought Lawrence back fro TFA so clearly they at some point were concerned with a continuity of tone.
Frankly, Rian was done a disservice. It should never have been him answering why Luke was on the island. It should have been Lawrence or JJ telling him why, and Rian fleshing out the emotional resonances behind that. The problem with TLJ, for me at least, beyond everything else with it, is that it's horrifically atonal to the rest of the series. And that's the thing, when you're telling chapter 8 in a story, it needs to feel like the rest of the story. I rewatched the whole series in the lead up to RoS and it was so jarring out how of tone TLJ is. Solo is more in line with the series (and if I'm honest, I actually liked it better). Rian Johnson is an incredible director, and writer, but he failed at playing to the tune of Star Wars. I wish they had just saved him for doing his own trilogy, where I think the shift in tone would have worked better, because then it would still be in some way his own thing, ya know?
That whole trilogy needed to be treated as one story from the start, and I can't tell if was arrogance or ignorance on Disney's part that led them here. It's a real shame it didn't have consistent writing, or a real throughline. Then they wouldn't have needed to spend the first third of RoS trying to retcon their own movie, leading to it feeling like 2 movies, both of which were rushed. Just a mess, although I did enjoy it, and definitely like it more than TLJ
And I realize that I'm not going to sway anyone with any of this, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents into it. Although I'm Canadian, so it's probably like my 1.75 cents for most of you. Still though. Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk
I understand that what they were going for was what they did with the original trilogy, where they had different directors for each and it gives each film it's own flavour. Sure. But the original trilogy was written predominantly by George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan, and overseen by George, so you have a continuous through line. He may not have had that planned out all in one go (That's a whole different Star Wars planning argument) but you had the same hand at the wheel the entire time. And they brought Lawrence back fro TFA so clearly they at some point were concerned with a continuity of tone.
Frankly, Rian was done a disservice. It should never have been him answering why Luke was on the island. It should have been Lawrence or JJ telling him why, and Rian fleshing out the emotional resonances behind that. The problem with TLJ, for me at least, beyond everything else with it, is that it's horrifically atonal to the rest of the series. And that's the thing, when you're telling chapter 8 in a story, it needs to feel like the rest of the story. I rewatched the whole series in the lead up to RoS and it was so jarring out how of tone TLJ is. Solo is more in line with the series (and if I'm honest, I actually liked it better). Rian Johnson is an incredible director, and writer, but he failed at playing to the tune of Star Wars. I wish they had just saved him for doing his own trilogy, where I think the shift in tone would have worked better, because then it would still be in some way his own thing, ya know?
That whole trilogy needed to be treated as one story from the start, and I can't tell if was arrogance or ignorance on Disney's part that led them here. It's a real shame it didn't have consistent writing, or a real throughline. Then they wouldn't have needed to spend the first third of RoS trying to retcon their own movie, leading to it feeling like 2 movies, both of which were rushed. Just a mess, although I did enjoy it, and definitely like it more than TLJ
And I realize that I'm not going to sway anyone with any of this, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents into it. Although I'm Canadian, so it's probably like my 1.75 cents for most of you. Still though. Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk
Bigdaddy
Master Member
George's decision to sell his company was made many years after the PT, I'm not buying into the idea that he sold it because of fans being critical of that trilogy. He's the one that announced a new trilogy with the OT cast BEFORE he sold LFL.
Part of me thinks that he saw the daunting prospect of a trilogy that would take a large portion of time during his waning years and decided "F it! I could enjoy my retirement without the headache of this."
The more cynical part of me thinks maybe he wanted to lock in the OT cast and create a buzz so he could command a higher price for LFL.
Either way, he has to take responsibility for his own decision to sell, not anyone else.
The ST is only a "penance" if people choose it to be, Star Wars still exists as it did from 77-83 (if that's your preference). Expecting the story to continue past ROTJ or before SW is unreasonable. I don't enjoy the PT (never asked for it or thought it was needed) so I don't watch it, same with the ST. So the audience member will only have a penance to pay if they choose to be too emotionally invested in a goofy space fantasy. Personally I find discussing it pretty entertaining but there's way too much real stuff in the world to be upset about it.
HMSwolfe
Master Member
It’s both. Argnonance. Irrognance. Something like that.
PantheraGem
Sr Member
The entire trilogy was made to spite George. Of the whiny "We can do it better (by making everything bigger)" variety.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Vlair I agree with you that RJ was given the short end of the stick. If directing a trilogy, the middle movie is arguably the worst because you have to focus on building a bigger set up (rise of the final boss, filming the failure of the heroes, etc) but you don’t get to show the final payoff (the heroes final victory). I can see RJ not being happy that he doesn’t get to finish the story but set up the pieces for the final director to get the praise for his set up.
I do think KK stated they set up a basic narrative but RJ went off on his own and KK allowed it so although I don’t find RJ blameless (it’s because of this that JJ got pissed at him and basically retconned TLJ in RoS) but the majority falls on KK for being a terrible producer.
And Joker that explanation makes no sense. First, there could be several reasons why Luke is “gone” that don’t involve exile.
1) Luke is investigating a threat he feels is more powerful and threatening than the first order (the existence of Snoke/Palpatine).
2) Luke was captured and trapped on the island and needed to be freed.
3) Luke got caught up in something he finds equally important (maybe protecting his fledging students) and feels he needs to reject the call.
4) Luke is searching for something to deal with the First Order, knowing it’s the only thing that can defeat them and so is focused on that.
5) Luke is in further training and focused on completing his training before confronting the threat, believing he still has more time (a mirror to his opposite reaction in ESB).
Luke refusing the call and stopping Ben despite having foreseen the darkness and destruction he will bring is cowardice, no matter how you dress it up. And choosing not to take any action and let others suffer the consequences is also cowardly. Unless this is some anime movie where if Luke and Ben clash, it will give rise to a new being of evil so Luke can’t confront Ben directly (terrible reason but whatever), there isn’t a reason for Luke to get involved and protect the people he loves.
I do think RJ is a good director but he was a terrible pick to direct TLJ. I think he might have been able to do something good with a one-off movie like Rogue One where he had full control of the story with some lore advisors to tell him what can or can’t be done to hit ideas off of. But given the fact that KK didn’t even realize that Star Wars is full of lore that could be drawn upon for inspiration, RJ was given a **** job (direct the middle movie) with a bad boss. He didn’t do a good job but I don’t place all the blame on him.
I do think KK stated they set up a basic narrative but RJ went off on his own and KK allowed it so although I don’t find RJ blameless (it’s because of this that JJ got pissed at him and basically retconned TLJ in RoS) but the majority falls on KK for being a terrible producer.
And Joker that explanation makes no sense. First, there could be several reasons why Luke is “gone” that don’t involve exile.
1) Luke is investigating a threat he feels is more powerful and threatening than the first order (the existence of Snoke/Palpatine).
2) Luke was captured and trapped on the island and needed to be freed.
3) Luke got caught up in something he finds equally important (maybe protecting his fledging students) and feels he needs to reject the call.
4) Luke is searching for something to deal with the First Order, knowing it’s the only thing that can defeat them and so is focused on that.
5) Luke is in further training and focused on completing his training before confronting the threat, believing he still has more time (a mirror to his opposite reaction in ESB).
Luke refusing the call and stopping Ben despite having foreseen the darkness and destruction he will bring is cowardice, no matter how you dress it up. And choosing not to take any action and let others suffer the consequences is also cowardly. Unless this is some anime movie where if Luke and Ben clash, it will give rise to a new being of evil so Luke can’t confront Ben directly (terrible reason but whatever), there isn’t a reason for Luke to get involved and protect the people he loves.
I do think RJ is a good director but he was a terrible pick to direct TLJ. I think he might have been able to do something good with a one-off movie like Rogue One where he had full control of the story with some lore advisors to tell him what can or can’t be done to hit ideas off of. But given the fact that KK didn’t even realize that Star Wars is full of lore that could be drawn upon for inspiration, RJ was given a **** job (direct the middle movie) with a bad boss. He didn’t do a good job but I don’t place all the blame on him.
VonMagnum
Sr Member
Come on man! It's not too late for Disney to save their franchise....
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Restaurant Wars: The Rise of Dark Taters!
"Rey! You will not be able to resist the dark oily side of Jo Jo Bink's Dark Taters™ with malt vinegar and salt!"
I knew you couldn't resist! Ah ha ha ha ha!
Once you've tasted the savory salty darkness of our Dark Taters™, there is no going back to sharing ever again!
Joek3rr
Master Member
You should really read The Secret History of Star Wars.
Joek3rr
Master Member
"Why would I make any more, when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?" - George Lucas
Joek3rr
Master Member
Here's why none of those work.
Luke never told anyone where he went. You expect me to believe Luke went searching for some lost Jedi lore, or some new training. But he didn't tell anyone? Worse yet he didn't take his most faithful companion, Artoo? Sorry doesn't work. Now a depressed, disillusioned Luke probably would disappear without a 'heres where I'm going and why'.
Luke doesn't want to face Ben, for the same reason Obi-Wan doesn't want to face Anakin. Luke knows that a confrontation would lead death or dismemberment on Ben's part or Luke's.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Yes. Pretty sure Luke went to the Dagobah system to get training from Yoda and really only tells R2 because he needs him to set directions to the Dagobah system. As a matter of fact, I would expect a depressed Luke to be more likely to contact Leia to tell her he isn’t coming back because she is expecting Luke to be back, hence the search. I mean that’s just basic etiquette. If Luke really didn’t want to be found and stay away, why create a map in the first place?
The novel said Han believed Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple which the map identifies, something also theorized by another resistance fighter. And if Han thought it, he likely heard Luke talking about looking for the first jedi temple and so believes that is where he went off to, just that he doesn’t know where the temple is. So your argument that it can’t possibly be because Luke went for learning/finding something can be possible because the official novelization on brought it up as a potential reason. The reason why Rey, Leia, Han are looking for Luke is because they want to warn him that the First Order is looking for him. I don’t consider the novel canon but it was Disney approved with there being hype that we might see the first Jedi temple.
www.cinemablend.com
www.cinemablend.com
It’s pretty obvious that you are so fixated on the idea that Rian Johnson’s idea was flawlessly perfect and no idea could possibly work that you also go against the official novel for Force Awakens. No one is discounting the possibility that Luke was depressed although the article above hypothesizes it is because of Ben’s betrayal+Ben and Knights of Ren dest
And fear of the possibility of Kylo Ren dismembering him means Luke is afraid of Kylo Ren. Unless getting dismembered is not scary? I mean it seems even you agree that Luke is scared of Kylo Ren but somehow want to argue running away from confronting Kylo who wants to fight him is not cowardly? I think Poland wants a word with you.
Ofcourse, being so scared of Kylo because he is so powerful could be a good reason for Luke’s depression and hiding/cowardice. He sees an enemy so insanely more powerful than him that he cannot hope to best who will destroy everything his loves would be amazing characterization to build up Kylo as a threat.
But if that were the case, Kylo is a paper tiger. Looks scary but accomplished nothing. Loses to Rey 3 times in every encounter (despite supposedly being equal and better trained since he supposedly trained under Luke for about 14 years since he was 5 and should have trained under Snoke for another 10). His only kills of named character is old defenseless Han and injuring Finn who recovered after a quick Bacta bath. Hell, during the final confrontation between Luke and Kylo, Luke completely messed with Kylo and basically let himself lose. This is the threat?
If you look at them piece by individual piece, plot holes and inconsistencies can be explained away. But when you look at it as a whole, it doesn’t hold.
The novel said Han believed Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple which the map identifies, something also theorized by another resistance fighter. And if Han thought it, he likely heard Luke talking about looking for the first jedi temple and so believes that is where he went off to, just that he doesn’t know where the temple is. So your argument that it can’t possibly be because Luke went for learning/finding something can be possible because the official novelization on brought it up as a potential reason. The reason why Rey, Leia, Han are looking for Luke is because they want to warn him that the First Order is looking for him. I don’t consider the novel canon but it was Disney approved with there being hype that we might see the first Jedi temple.
Star Wars Finally Gave Us The Name Of Luke Skywalker's New Planet
The name of the planet where Luke Skywalker was hanging out in Star Wars: The Force Awakens has finally been revealed. Get the details here and let's figure out what this means.
www.cinemablend.com
Luke Skywalker In Star Wars: Episode 8 - Everything We Know
Though his presence loomed large over Star Wars: The Force Awakens, Luke Skywalker wasn't around much. That will change in Episode VIII, and here's what we think he'll be up to.
www.cinemablend.com
It’s pretty obvious that you are so fixated on the idea that Rian Johnson’s idea was flawlessly perfect and no idea could possibly work that you also go against the official novel for Force Awakens. No one is discounting the possibility that Luke was depressed although the article above hypothesizes it is because of Ben’s betrayal+Ben and Knights of Ren dest
And fear of the possibility of Kylo Ren dismembering him means Luke is afraid of Kylo Ren. Unless getting dismembered is not scary? I mean it seems even you agree that Luke is scared of Kylo Ren but somehow want to argue running away from confronting Kylo who wants to fight him is not cowardly? I think Poland wants a word with you.
Ofcourse, being so scared of Kylo because he is so powerful could be a good reason for Luke’s depression and hiding/cowardice. He sees an enemy so insanely more powerful than him that he cannot hope to best who will destroy everything his loves would be amazing characterization to build up Kylo as a threat.
But if that were the case, Kylo is a paper tiger. Looks scary but accomplished nothing. Loses to Rey 3 times in every encounter (despite supposedly being equal and better trained since he supposedly trained under Luke for about 14 years since he was 5 and should have trained under Snoke for another 10). His only kills of named character is old defenseless Han and injuring Finn who recovered after a quick Bacta bath. Hell, during the final confrontation between Luke and Kylo, Luke completely messed with Kylo and basically let himself lose. This is the threat?
If you look at them piece by individual piece, plot holes and inconsistencies can be explained away. But when you look at it as a whole, it doesn’t hold.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Sure George, EVERYBODY yells at you ALL the time. That's why you're rich beyond your wildest dreams and have lived in luxury for decades.... cry me a river.
If that's an actual quote he must've been off his meds that day!
Quotes aside he has to own his decision to sell (which he seemed to regret shortly after TFA was released). Ironically, he was bashing Disney with a pretty heavy hand in his Charlie Rose interview, he used verbage that went beyond creative criticism.
We all know how often he changes his mind, that's why he can't stop tinkering with the OT. He went back and forth about what to do with Star Wars for years, always able to change his mind. His decision to sell was the first time he couldn't change his mind about Star Wars later, his creation was permanently gone to him..."sold to white slavers" as he put it.
My apologies, this thread is the RoS not the FoL. Carry on with the diagrams...
The only reason why we went down this rabbit hole of the merits or failures of TLJ again is because HeartBlade mentioned it in passing and Joek3rr jumped in to tell us we're all wrong.
If we're wrong, we're wrong. What difference does it make to you?
If we're wrong, we're wrong. What difference does it make to you?
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Is there an award for being the most effective troll in the history of The RPF?
mattycsi
Master Member
If so, somebody somewhere is holding Joker's beer.
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