Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
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lol:lol!!!..., Thank you , really needed that after a miserable day !
joshvanrad
Master Member
CT I will say this, and I hope you know I seriously and completely mean it... In my 31 years on this planet I have never heard such a ridiculously ignorant diatribe on "fans not being owed anything."
We get your near-religious defense of this movie, but dude... think before you type because you sound absolutely ridiculous.
We get your near-religious defense of this movie, but dude... think before you type because you sound absolutely ridiculous.
Solo4114
Master Member
A bit late to the party, but I did want to respond to this. I actually disagree with your position somewhat. I mean, legally, you're right. It's their property and they can do what they like with it. I do, however, think that fans have some claims of...if not "ownership," per se, at least "investment."
I also think that there's an element of the creative process that is fundamentally interactive between author and audience, and that there's a degree to which an author implicitly "shares" possession of the material they create with the audience. Again, legally speaking, none of this is the case. There is nothing to stop an author from, say, completely changing the ending of their story 50 years down the road and then refusing to ever reissue the old versions of the books. If the Tolkien estate decided "Nah, Sauron shoulda won," they could legally change the ending, and have Middle Earth be completely engulfed in darkness and flame forever and ever, while the hobbits were roasted on spits. There's nothing legally that could prevent that, nor should there be. But, there's the issue of the audience being invested in the property that should be considered.
That said, I don't think LFL under Disney is intentionally trying to irritate anyone, nor are they actively setting out to insult or disregard all their longtime fans. To the contrary, I think they believe they're telling good stories, and are inviting that audience to come along with them for the ride. Not everyone wants to. That's to be expected. Hell, once they nuked the EU continuity, you had to expect that some folks would get pissed. But all that said, if you can accept that the EU doesn't exist anymore, then I still don't see how the new films have "retconned" anything, really. They haven't "changed" anything (other than what was established in the EU).
Regardless, I don't see that Lucasfilm has actually insulted its fans directly. Some may feel insulted as a result of the films that were made (e.g. "It's an insult that they'd think I'd like this," but that's more the fan taking offense at the material, rather than the creators actively insulting the fan). In the few instances I'm aware of that fans opinions have been dismissed, the opinions in question have been those advanced by people who were saying things like how outrageous it was that Finn -- a black character -- is a Stormtrooper, or some of the actually sexist comments that were made about Rey.
I mean, the stormtrooper thing is just stupid. It's a fictional world. There's zero reason to assume a stormtrooper HAS to be white, especially one who defects. And the Rey stuff, you can have criticisms of how her story has been told (God knows I do....looking at you, JJ...), but I don't buy the notion of the "SJW" agenda and whatnot as somehow being the reason there are issues with her story. To the extent that there are flaws in Rey's story it's that JJ did his mystery box crap, not that it's part of the SJW agenda. The only aspect of the SJW agenda is casting a female protagonist as an effort to broaden the fandom and expand representation in films, which, sorry, but it matters and it's a good goal to have, assuming the actors can pull off the role (which Daisy can, and I don't see anyone who's said otherwise). If LFL is dismissive of people for those things....meh. Not that bothered.
Outside of that, though, I don't think LFL is trying to purposely alienate any fans. They want everyone to come on board. They want you to like their films. They aren't going to change what they're doing based on a small, vocal portion of the fandom (they have larger-scale metrics to track for that), but if they can get you to join in with what they're doing, that's what they'd prefer.
I think it's a bummer that so many people here don't like the new films. I don't think they're stupid for not liking them or that they "don't get it," although I do think that they don't really appreciate what I appreciate about the film, and that's a shame. I'd love it if everyone universally enjoyed the new stuff. So far, although I haven't seen Solo, that's been my experience. I hope future films are enjoyable for people. I don't really see LFL changing tack any time soon, unless Solo ends up really bombing, but even then, I think there's an element of priced-in underperformance, given the reshoots that were apparently necessary. We'll see.
I actually just heard an interesting piece about intergenerational trauma -- how bad things happening to people back whenever affects their children, and related stuff. Someone in the story, commenting on the damage done by taking native peoples away to boarding schools that, ah, "strongly discouraged" the elements of their upbringing. He went into stuff about how they were essentially denied their culture, and not given anything to replace it. And I had one of those mini-revelations that happen every so often that this sounds like what a lot of Star Wars fans are going through. The culture being the movies and EU they'd grown comfortable with over the years, and with the new direction things are taking, they feel like the familiar has been yanked away. It's a legitimate trauma, and I get where they're coming from. I also can't imagine how frustrating it must be to look for acknowledgement and agreement about that trauma and find people who tell them to quit whining, basically.
But the experience is so subjective. Where one person can feel like the rug has been ripped out from under them and then they've been punched in the gut while they're off-balance, others are more able to roll with it and are excited to see where it goes. Not sure why it seems one "side" seems to take things more personally than the other. I could speculate, but don't like to without more data. I just think it's unfortunate rational discussion of it is often so difficult...
But the experience is so subjective. Where one person can feel like the rug has been ripped out from under them and then they've been punched in the gut while they're off-balance, others are more able to roll with it and are excited to see where it goes. Not sure why it seems one "side" seems to take things more personally than the other. I could speculate, but don't like to without more data. I just think it's unfortunate rational discussion of it is often so difficult...
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CT1138
Sr Member
That's the age old question, though, isn't it? Is the customer always right? As somebody who works retail I will adamantly say "No, they are only sometimes right." In my experience, the customer is actually usually wrong more often than they are right. Should the fans be considered? Maybe, but not always. They're certainly not entitled be be part of the creative process, but then again fans are usually fans because they liked what something started out the be. And when franchises exchange hands as they are susceptible to, the original creative ideas can be altered and be open for interpretation. But if you ask me franchises not only should evolve, they MUST evolve. To remain stagnant is to embrace extinction. One could argue that "The Force Awakens" did A LOT to pander to fans. And it was called derivative for it. On the other hand, The Last Jedi did everything it could to subvert expectations and rustle fan jimmies. So, I'll repeat the first thing I ever said when defending this movie: fans don't know what they want. They never did, and they never will. That's perfectly natural. There's no one singular voice for this, or any fandom. Various voices and opinions is inherent in fandom. And that, in my opinion, is what makes not just fandoms, but life in general great.
MooCriket
Master Member
greedo737
Active Member
“Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.”
MooCriket
Master Member
gedmac66
Sr Member
Speaking as a ‘ fan ‘ , and not as a fanatic , I personally disagree with this portion of your statement .
I’m no expert , nor even as familiar with this ‘ galaxy ‘ as so many others here are - never got into the novels , comics , animation etc ... , but I do know what I like and what I don’t - have done so from a young age actually .
I didn’t like the direction TLJ took after what was being established in TFA , as part of a ‘ Trilogy ‘ .
The fact that RJ subverted certain expectations purposely shows what a Prima dona ( and SW hack ) he really is .
This is of course , my honest opinion as a ‘ fan ‘ of the OT films in particular , but not limited to those .
:cheersGed
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CT1138
Sr Member
The fact that we disagree exactly proves what I said. We're both fans. You wanted VIII to be different from what we got. I'm okay with what we got. We both wanted something different. Now multiply that across the millions of fans across the world. Fans don't know what they want. That's "fans" plural. You know what you want. You're a fan. I know what I want. I'm a fan. But together, neither of us can agree on what we want.
But Disney wants something that excites most fans. They aren't looking to make controversial, polarizing films that people either love or hate. That's harmful to the brand and bad business. Fans all want something different but I'll just go out on a limb and say most didn't want what Rian gave us. Ideas like "both sides of this conflict are corrupt", "the Jedi Order is inherently toxic", "a 30 hour slow speed chase", "the Force will sort out good and bad by itself" and of course, "Shirtless Kylo and shy Rey" are not what most fans want to see in a SW movie.
Nice Strawman attempt, but totally transparent, Dano. So enough already with this incessant, "Oh, I don't think Disney's trying to insult anyone...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", Strawman nonsense. Of course they don't want to alienate all their fans and have duds at the BO. You don't need to say that, for Chrissakes. It's as obvious as the sky is blue.
But KK has two imperatives. And it's a balancing act between the two.
One, she needs to advance her SJW agenda.
And two, she needs to make somewhat good films so her agenda is received by as many pairs of eyes and ears as possible.
The problem is, many people reject her SJW agenda. And even if they reject it only partially, they certainly don't want it in the Star Wars movies they pay to go see. So if she lays it on too thick, too many fans will stay home, and the movie will suffer at the BO.
Quite the conundrum, for KK. But she knows a few things, which she can use to her advantage, to push the SJW envelope, and still get enough butts in the seats to satisfy shareholders, and most importantly, preserve her job. Because after all, without her job, she can't promote her agenda. And her SJW agenda is her primary imperative. Her secondary imperative, of making successful films at the BO, is only a means to protect her primary imperative--dissemination of her SJW agenda to the masses.
She knows that Star Wars fans are desperate for good Star Wars films again, after the mostly abysmal PT left such a bad taste in their mouths. And she knows that roughly half the people who will go see a Star Wars movie will applaud or tolerate a good deal of SJW activism infused in the films. But what about that other half of the country, which she holds in such contempt. The half that put our current president in the White House. She needs them, too, in order for her films to succeed at the BO the way a Star Wars film is expected to succeed. She doesn't need all of them. But she does need a sizable percentage of them to shell out their 12 bucks for the movie. So KK pushes the envelope with her SJW agenda a little extra hard, and banks on those reluctant, if not repulsed, fans to go anyway, because it's got the Star Wars label on it, and they're desperate for anything Star Wars. And she preys on fans like me, who think every one of their offerings stinks, but I keep going back, because I'm hoping upon hope they get their SWIQ together, and make a good Star Wars film again some day.
For you see, KK knows the Alexander Pope quote: "Hope springs eternal in the human breast."
But KK also knows the P.T. Barnum quote: "There's a sucker born every minute."
The Wook
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nickytea
Master Member
Setting aside the fact that you are, apparently, capable of using the phrase "SJW agenda" with a straight face (and without realizing that it is a dog-whistle for literal Nazis) -- what, other than your personal distaste for the content of the new films, has lead you to believe that this imaginary "agenda" is her primary one? Any interview with her has made her priorities incredibly transparent: allow filmmakers to tell their personal stories in the Star Wars universe, in the same way Lucas was free to tell his.
I find it incredibly insulting, and quite frankly sad, that you have invented a phrase ("SWIQ") solely as a way of dissociating other fans who do not agree with your view on this property. Any piece of art is a multi-faceted experience. Two people enjoying the same work might be engaging with it to equal depths of passion, but reacting to entirely different facets of the gem. Reducing what you consider to be a "true fan" to only those who interpret the object of your fandom in the same way you do is shameful to the community, and flies in the face of what this series stands for -- if we can agree that it stands for, or ever stood for, anything.
The version of Kathleen Kennedy you have spun is a whole-cloth fiction. You hated these movies. We get it. No measure of redistributing that hate to your fellow fans will offer you any further insight to the internal machinations of Lucasfilm. None of us were in the room. All we have is the work. We all don't have to like it, but I'd like to think we can all respect each other enough, in observance of the hope that the next installment will be for us. I love THE LAST JEDI. I did not love SOLO. There are those that do. Maybe the next one will be for me.
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Ok. Ok....
Yeah, brotha, that's the way to open your post! With a dig that I'm sounding a dog-whistle to my like-minded literal Nazi friends. :lol
I didn't invent SWIQ. I merely discovered it, and labeled it. Just be thankful I didn't include my name in its naming, like paleontologists and astronomers do when they discover a new dinosaur, or constellation. I named it, generically, SWIQ--because it belongs to all of us. SWIQ is absolute, and constant as the Northern star. Our individual SWIQs vary, and fluctuate, as measured against the absolute SWIQ. And some, like you, nickytea, have SWIQ-envy, which you disguise by decrying its existence at all.
The Wook
nickytea
Master Member
Hey man, play fair. That's not what I said. I assumed the best -- that you didn't realize how that term has come to be used, and by whom.
Have I missed the post where you elucidate its aptitude standard? Is it based on sheer volume of content awareness? Or depth of integration into one's living, personal mythology? Or is it the imprecise, selectively applied standard of your own personal whims that it appears to be?
Baloney, don't talk to me about "playing fair". You didn't "assume the best". The only reason you gave yourself that out is because you knew if you directly called me a Nazi, all it would take would be for one member to report your post, and you'd be banned. I use the term, SJW, all the time. So do all my friends. And we are not Nazis, pal.
Oh, there have been many posts in which I provided a detailed definition of SWIQ. Mostly in the Solo thread. I'm sure you'll come across one such post if you dig around a little bit.
The Wook
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