Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[seelsa73]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I'm going to start this a little off topic by addressing the differences between the 2 existing trilogies that some of us seem to forget or don't want to see due the their over-fondness for the OT.

The OT and the PT are supposed to be very different...The Galactic Republic was in full bloom for the PT where the opulence and cleanliness of the universe shone everywhere you look. There were no constraints on the general populace, and there was no need for a rebel alliance because everything was hunky dory (until, of course, episode III when the s@*# hit the fan).

The OT focuses on the rebel alliance, who's resources were limited and they had to make do with what they had, which is why the atmosphere of the movies were the way they were. The good guys and the bad guys were clearly defined in the OT, and the good guys had to live very simply in order to stay mobile and - for the most part - out of the Empire's reach, in order to restore the galaxy to the way it was before the Empire. So they didn't have fancy apartments, fashionable clothes, or the ability to go and do as they please as was the case in the PT.

So of course the two trilogies were going to have a completely different feel to them. The die-hard fans went into the prequels hoping to get more of the same, only with different characters, which would have satisfied long-time fans of Star Wars, who sat in the theaters when they were young when they first came out, but would have made little sense in the overall story. Two different periods of time beget two different atmospheres to the movies. That's the way the real world works, and that's the way it should be portrayed.

For the next trilogy, they can mix in a little of both, creating a new atmosphere, where they are rebuilding from the war and evolving. As for the EU, i would love to see them include what could work, namely the characters, and nixing the things that wouldn't really fit. For instance, in the EU, the New republic continued the use of warship and frigates etcetera that the Empire used. I, for one, would like to see them get away from that and design new ships and technology to show that evolution. And no more Sith, as the profecy has been fullfilled which predicted the downfall OF the Sith. But that's not to say that they can't have Jedi that have fallen to the dark side, which are completely different from Sith in that the Sith follow a certain set of rules whereas dark Jedi are just rogues that have their own agenda(s).

 

[Buzz]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I like it...good conceptbut as with all the conversation we won't know until they start. Personally I think even 2015 might be a little optimistic as a target date release, maybe end of year.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't think any effort will be made to retcon the EU or destroy it, it simply will not be an integral part of the future films. The EU in and of itself can and likely will carry on, but it would likely no longer follow along the same lines as the recent series like Fate of the Jedi. There's plenty of EU content set in the distant past or future timelines. And an entirely new EU will be developed based on characters and situations introduced by the films. When I say the EU is toast, I mean that in terms of any hope it has any canon or continuity int he post ROTJ era.

Right, that's what I'm talking about, too. the more far-flung eras, like what's been depicted in some comics and games, would be fine, since they're only loosely connected to the events of the OT and PT. Where things would get problematic would be in terms of how you fit in all the stuff written since 1991 that focuses on the OT characters and their immediate families.

I mean, if you've got a book that says "20 years after the battle of Yavin, bioengineered creatures who weren't visible in the Force showed up and kicked the snot out of the Jedi, killed Chewbacca, and one of Han Solo's kids", but then do a film that just TOTALLY retcons that...well, actually I'd be ok with that, myself, but I'm sure there's at least a segment of fans who wouldn't be.

My point is that I don't see a need to even go down that path in the first place. You can just avoid it altogether by setting the story far enough in the future and dealing with different characters. No muss, no fuss.

The prequel trilogy contradicted stuff already in writing.

I seriously think you are dug in too deep in the EU. They are not important when it comes to the movies. They are NOT part of the movies universe at all. And when you think of the EU in that way, there's nothing to contradict and nothing to make you reference it at all. They are simply: ALTERNATE UNIVERSE stories.

I'm not actually all taht invested in the EU. Actually, this is precisely because of my experience with the PT, how it contradicted certain EU stuff (and otherwise just didn't satisfy me). I basically came to the attitude of "Well, fine, George. That's YOUR story. If we all get to claim stories, then MY story ignores your stuff and picks and chooses from what I like."

That said, a simple hand-waive of "ALTERNATE UNIVERSE" doesn't exactly work when LFL has been selling the novels as "canon" for the last 20 years. Seriously, since 1991 (oh my god I'm getting old...), they've been telling folks that things like the Zahn books, the NJO stuff, etc. are all "canon" unless they said otherwise, or unless GEORGE HIMSELF erased them...and even then they'd just write a book or two to try to mesh the two (albeit not always successfully, from what I heard). Fans will likely still accept it, but as I said, I just see it as...unnecessary. There are plenty of good stories to be told that have nothing to do with the Skywalker/Solo families.

Hopefully they bring the old cast back, thats what i'd like to see, money talks and i'm sure they throw enough money at Harrison he'll sign up,He allways seemed thankfull to George in the past, as where would he be without the first movie?.
I'm hoping they disregard the EU stuff as a lot of it is just not Stat Wars to me, i'm hopingf for something we don't know about, something fresh

If you want something fresh, then it shouldn't be about the old characters. You have a lot more room to maneuver if you just start completely new, several hundred years into the future, and simply tell another story altogether.

What about a Jedi civil war? The order breaks down and goes to war with itself, at the same time as a galactic civil war breaks out, with each side throwing their lot in with this or that faction. You could do the oft-used "horrible warlord ravages the galaxy" thing, but that's been done to death with the various Imperial remnant warlords in the EU. You could do a resurgent Sith empire, but that's also kinda been done already in the comics. Still, there's plenty of other stuff available. You could have a First World War analogue where two backwater planets get into a war with each other, and drag in everyone else on different sides. You could do an Italian states-in-the-renaissance analogue with various planetary systems forming and breaking alliances with each other. You could do the Sengokujitai in space. You could do the Napoleonic wars in space. You could do Greeks vs. Persians in space. And none of it needs to have ANYTHING to do with the original trilogy's characters the same way ST:TNG had next to nothing to do with ST:TOS.

I've never understood the fascination with the EU. I tried following it but found it to be mostly crap. The movies as we know them will never be bound to EU. They're two separate entities and the films have absolutely no obligation or responsibility to bulid upon EU or even recognize it in any new films. Now, if they want to make films based on the EU stuff, I suppose that's fine. But they should be their own thing. Personally, I'd be thrilled if the EU never existed.

I couldn't care less, honestly. I mean, I like the Zahn books, and there's some KOTOR stuff I like, but other than that any maybe the Jedi Academy series that came out immediately after the Zahn stuff? Meh. Don't care. Order 66 the lot of it, if you want. Like I said, I just don't see the need to do that, mostly because the only way that would happen is if they feel compelled to use the same characters as before or their immediate descendents.

There's enough stories that can be told using only the characters that have appeared in the movies we already know without ever having to dip in to the EU nonsense.

There's also no need to use them at all. Tell new stories without having to figure out how to use these older actors in roles that they can still play convincingly. I, for one, do not WANT to see sequels involving the old characters. I'm happy to let them ride off into the sunset of my imagination, and dream up my own stories for them. I'd rather they tell entirely new stories about entirely new people. The Skywalker/Solo family is not the only people in the freaking galaxy. It's time we broke away from them and focused on other stuff, in my opinion.

I'd LOVE to re see a re-boot of 1-3 at some point. Wipe them off the map. In fact, going back and adhering to Lucas' original 12 movie outline would be amazing. One of the BIG problems with the prequels was that they tried and failed at doing way too much in way too short a period of time. Instead of story, you got snippets of things cut and pasted to imply what was happening or was going to happen in a really slap dash edititorial style. Just not good storytelling.

What made Star Wars what it was is a very elusive thing to try and capture. Lucas failed to do so with the prequels. The feel, the look, the style is a delicate balance of things that I think other directors and writers who love and whose careers were influenced by Star Wars are in a far better position to be able to re-create than Lucas has been since 1979. So, in that sense I am really hopeful about what's to come. To have these films possibly wind up in the hands of filmmakers who care about the material and show it as much reverence as Peter Jackson has shown the Tolkien material leaves me nearly giddy. Someone who doesn't necessarily view it as a "franchise" or a "property" or a "creative corporate asset" or any other vapid, soulless business term. Someone who grew up loving the STORY and the CHARACTERS and who wants to do justice to THEM and wants to make the story and the films what they should have always been. Someone who gets it. Time will tell.

On the whole, I agree with you. I think, however, that Lucas viewed himself as doing just that. We may not find his vision particularly compelling, but I think he told the story he wanted to tell based on his love of the universe he created. It's just not one that I find all taht entertaining.

I'd enjoy seeing 1-3 rebooted and retconned, but I think you're gonna have a VERY hard time getting that to happen with George alive. Sequels are one thing. Retconning Uncle George's stuff...that's something else entirely.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Didnt the Emperor made clones of himself according to the EU canon and returned. Dont go there!

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Didnt the Emperor made clones of himself according to the EU canon and returned. Dont go there!

Good point. And yes, that would SUCK. Then, even if it was Episode VII, it'd just end up being "Star Wars: The Reboot."

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I say a resounding NO to any reboot. The prequels are what they are, let's not try and redo that whole story. It was George's to tell and he did, end of story.

 

[Jedi-72]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It was George's to tell and he did, end of story.

"Was" being the operative word. It's not his sandbox anymore.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

That said, a simple hand-waive of "ALTERNATE UNIVERSE" doesn't exactly work when LFL has been selling the novels as "canon" for the last 20 years.

Have only ever heard of the EU referred to as alternate universe from official sources, ever since before TPM.

There is nothing in the books the filmmakers need to worry about adhering to. The movies are canon. Everything else isn't.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Yeah, that's true, but they've played around with that. there's been this weird hierarchy of canonical material with the films being the highest order of "canonicity" or whatever, followed by the radio dramas, and then the books. Lucas himself always had the option of overriding anything in the books, comics, etc., but MOST of what he described didn't do that (with, perhaps, the exception of the Spaarti cloning cylinders thing). Even when he did that, I gather they tried to write that away by creating some clone wars era book which bridged the gap. So, while the official statements may be that the movies are top canon, they've made every effort NOT to step on the toes of the additional material.

I think I've heard maybe one "alternate universe" statement, and I want to say that was specifically about a particular DHC comics series. I may be misremembering that, though.


Regardless of whether they're canon, for me, the point comes back to not needing or wanting new material based on the old characters. Let them go. Move on. Tell new stories. Tying things back to those characters will be inherently limiting to the story, I'd expect. It could be worked around, and a good story could still emerge...but honestly I just think it's unnecessary and probably more likely to go poorly.

 

[Werstrooper]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

If I may break away from the EU talk for a moment and add my 2 cents.

Working through some themes of the 6 films so far here is my impression.

The theme of spirits or siblings seems to be a theme that can keep the trilogy going, and I have a feeling the the Emperor will still play a big role in this. If a Jedi Spirit can guide the living soul a would be Jedi, then why not the spirit of a would be Sith. For example, the son/daughter of Han and Leia? That I would like to see.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I have to say, if I am being totally honest with myself, there is more of me that is excited. Why? Because it doesn't suck yet, they haven't ruined it yet. This is the time when us old fans can be excited at the endless possibilities ahead, all the while being pessimistic that it will be good. Perhaps Lucas crapping out Episode 1,2,3 set us up to be happily surprised by 7,8,9?

Oh, and like Orange said , "give me the OT . . . For the love of all that is holy in this world!" Or something like that.

:lol :thumbsup

 

[Pwrsrce]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Not only was George not really encumbered by the EU, there were times in the PT when he went directly against established conventions from the OT.

I really don't have a dog in this hunt, as I enjoyed some of the books but could care less if they use them or not. However, LFL spent years paying people to oversee that whole world so that things would be consistent. That in itself tells me that they viewed it as a little more than "alternate universe". In reality, I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't see them completely throwing out the EU, but I also don't see them being bound by it either.

As long as they come up with an engaging story arc, with some OT cameos thrown in for continuity, then I would view that as a step in the right direction.

Jason

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Regardless of whether they're canon, for me, the point comes back to not needing or wanting new material based on the old characters. Let them go. Move on. Tell new stories. Tying things back to those characters will be inherently limiting to the story, I'd expect. It could be worked around, and a good story could still emerge...but honestly I just think it's unnecessary and probably more likely to go poorly.

They are telling new stories. They are telling what happens to Luke, Leia and Solo after RotJ. Making sequels to RotJ and not have those characters in it... then there's no reason to call it 7, 8, and 9.

Save all the everywhere and whoever else stories for the non numerical movies.

And clearly those people where hired so that the alternate universe EU wouldn't contradict itself. Means nothing for the movies.

 

[cboath]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

If I may break away from the EU talk for a moment and add my 2 cents.

Working through some themes of the 6 films so far here is my impression.

The theme of spirits or siblings seems to be a theme that can keep the trilogy going, and I have a feeling the the Emperor will still play a big role in this. If a Jedi Spirit can guide the living soul a would be Jedi, then why not the spirit of a would be Sith. For example, the son/daughter of Han and Leia? That I would like to see.

I think a game of dueling spirits we be cheesy. Luke has Obi/anakin/yoda and the new baddy gets the emperor? Although i'd envision something more along the exar kun story - he posseses someone, not turns them via advice.

Following the child(ren) of Luke and that father son relationship vs the vader/luke relationship could be interesting. For it to happen and work, though, there needs to be a compelling enemy and '30 years later', i don't know what that would be. 30 years should be enough time to mop up the remains of the empire.

I do think 30 years later a new republic would be vulnerable and subject to defections and lack of trust etc. You could make an argument that successfully building the new republic to bookend the failed one is a legit plot point. Your enemy would be who would want to stop it.

Possible plot twist would be no new enemy and that the two sides become luke vs han/leia? Conflicting beliefs tearing the family/galaxy apart? Those beliefs inadvertantly stop a civil war and they have to set aside/resolve their differences to save the galaxy? Not sure it's a compelling enough story, but it could be.

If you're examining the father/offspring relationship again, what's enough to push a Luke offspring towards the dark side?

With a big bad guy though, i think it needs some time to the previous flicks and not just someone new because there are no more ideas. Mandalorians? Hutts? I don't think people will buy big fat tubs of goo as the biggest baddy the heroes have ever faced, though. Mandalorians are possible I guess, but I don't know if it's enough connection.

 

[Jannix Quinn]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

As long as it doesn't turn out like this crap-

 

[Werstrooper]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Please don't tell me that's Luke.

 

[dbalschi]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Please don't tell me that's Luke.

Pretty sure that it's Cade Sykwalker.

 

[jcoffman99]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I'd like to see the next trilogy focus on the Empire. Imagine that Palps had a plan that if he died order 13521 went into effect. All the ships in the fleet jump to a specific point in the universe. Then we follow the empire as Moffs jockey for power and try and rebuild. Maybe Palps sends them back to the Sith homeworld where we see an entire army of Sith.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I'm pretty sure no one read what I wrote past "EU". I in no way want an adaptation of any of the EU novels. What I think they would be dumb to do would be to just wipe the slate clean and completely overwrite the EU. They could easily do the movies without changing the EU at all. Also the thing that goes against people saying they will ignore the EU is that Lucas has put EU characters and locations into the movies and the Clone Wars.

As far as killing the EU with the movie, depending on what Lucasfilm makes on the novels, video games, etc. it wouldn't be a real smart move. People will stop reading them as soon as they know Lucasfilm considers them irrelevant and there goes their revenue. Now a few people insist they don't make that much money on this stuff, well then why are they making it? You don't keep making things if they aren't making a good profit.

 

[cboath]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The books cost LFL nothing and they get a licensing fee and royalties. Publishers will keeping putting them out as long as there is any profit to be had really.

With ALL the EU stuff they've done, i think it would be extremely difficult to not step on it at all. What if Ford gets his wish and they want to kill of Han? What if the story is luke has 20 year old kids 30 years later? In order to not step on it at all they have to use it. Han/Leia have to have kids and they have to have certain names, etc. The public/fans were warned when the first novel was released that if they ever did movies beyond E6, that LFL wasn't beholden to them in any way.

I don't remember all the books since i haven't read one in over 10 years, but in order to respect the EU, everything in Heir to the Empire, Jedi Academy, Truce at Bakura, etc, has to have happened. I stopped before the new jedi order stuff and the death of chewie, but all of the stuff up to that point at least - and there was A LOT - would have to have already happened and be respected by that point. Not throwing it out creates too many restrictions frankly. You can respect Heir, and not Academy. It should be all or nothing, and the best way to go is nothing.

I don't know the answer to this, but did TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise respect EVERYTHING in all the Star Trek books that were written?

To put it in another perspective, if you're GL and you actually had a plan for 7-9 and didn't plan on doing it and let people write the EU books, should you trash your story because it doesn't fit with the established EU?

Anyone question worth asking is when does the current book license expire? If it's before 2015, then the question is really moot. Any renewal of the license would have to fit LFL's/Disney's requirements. They wouldn't have a vested interested any longer if the license ran out.

Saying the EU is alternate timeline or not canon wouldn't stop me from play jedi knight or KOTOR or any of the games. Wouldn't stop me from introducing my kids (if I have any) to the current crop of EU books i have either. They're good stories. Not being respected by 7-9 doesn't change the quality of the story. That said, I don't think they should go out of their way to stomp things out, either. If they can do it without altering any plans that exist, so be it. If not, i'm not going to lose sleep over it.