Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[CutThumb]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I wouldn't worry about the effects. Star Trek looked absolutely breathtaking. In any event, Lucas focused entirely too much on over-saturating the frame with what he thought was eye candy. There's A LOT of crap on the screen that doesn't need to be there in the prequels. The new films would be well-served by restraint in the VFX arena. I'll trade away 75% of the effects in exchange for story and character development. That's all that matters. Without that, the VFX are a total uninteresting waste. There are plenty of mindless VFX vehicles out there for those who just want to shut their brains down and stare at a pretty picture for a few hours. I've faith that every effort will be made to strike the proper balance between visual wow and engaging story.

Absolutely spot on!!!! I've just re watched (or tried to, in the case of the prequels) the trilogies and there is no doubt that a lot of the visual success of the OT was due to the influence of those generations of the artists ,set designers and production teams that grew up working to a limited budget that couldn't afford to clutter the sets and add effects shots .
As a result “Star Wars” always looked like a reality I could instantly believe in from the planets down to the ILM models. Huge battleship sized Star Destroyers, beautiful sleek winged fighter planes , beaten up rusting freighters, double sunsets over vast deserts and huge orbital military death stars. It was ,and still is THE only science fiction film I ever saw that I immediately understood and accepted without ever having to think about any element of it because nothing in it needed explaining, it just fitted so perfectly together. No weird science , dumb science fiction gimmicks or aliens, it just all seemed realistically natural. There was not a single false note in it. It never felt ridiculously improbable ,gimmicky or untruthful to itself.
Compare that to the prequels, which is filled with creatures that LOOKED like typically sci fi aliens pinched from Star Trek. Give me just ONE animal that looked as good as a Bantha, or Tauntaun ,Dewback or Rancor in the prequels???? Everything that was true for the OT , that sparse ,lean "reality" is just dumped for environments that are just overblown with detail that utterly fails to convince you are in a galaxy far,far away that never-the-less is quite like ours , for a patently falsehooded computer generated exaggeration of the worst dreams of pulp scifi.
That's why the original Star wars and Empire will ALWAYS remain the strongest of all the SW films.Because they couldn't afford to make them look like they were in another universe, they gave them an identity where we ,the audience,could see that for once we might share in the same identifiable "worlds" and characters of a sci fi film and that's why ,ultimately, the visual impact of that first film will never be surpased .

 

[The Terminator]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

CutThumb.. so what's your opinion on Ewoks?
LOL

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I wouldn't worry about the effects. Star Trek looked absolutely breathtaking. In any event, Lucas focused entirely too much on over-saturating the frame with what he thought was eye candy. There's A LOT of crap on the screen that doesn't need to be there in the prequels. The new films would be well-served by restraint in the VFX arena. I'll trade away 75% of the effects in exchange for story and character development. That's all that matters. Without that, the VFX are a total uninteresting waste. There are plenty of mindless VFX vehicles out there for those who just want to shut their brains down and stare at a pretty picture for a few hours. I've faith that every effort will be made to strike the proper balance between visual wow and engaging story.

Ya, I'm not worried about the effects. I think this one will be a much more balanced feel. (my fingers are crossed anyway!)

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It'd be difficult to unbalance it further without making the entire film nothing but cartoonish CGI.

 

[jme3]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I wouldn't worry about the effects. Star Trek looked absolutely breathtaking. In any event, Lucas focused entirely too much on over-saturating the frame with what he thought was eye candy. There's A LOT of crap on the screen that doesn't need to be there in the prequels. The new films would be well-served by restraint in the VFX arena. I'll trade away 75% of the effects in exchange for story and character development. That's all that matters. Without that, the VFX are a total uninteresting waste. There are plenty of mindless VFX vehicles out there for those who just want to shut their brains down and stare at a pretty picture for a few hours. I've faith that every effort will be made to strike the proper balance between visual wow and engaging story.

I agree with you about lots of the unneeded parts, but the subject matter I was talking about, the ecumenopolis of Coruscant, is by its very design and intent "overkill". I doubt that it would ever be realistically rendered in anything but CGI; practical effects for this would be beyond unwieldy I think. I'm just excited to see how much even more realistic the artists would be able to render that with today's know-how. But I'd by no means be satisfied to trade off a great story/acting/writing/directing just to get another glimpse at the fabled city...

 

[Jedi-72]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I agree with you about lots of the unneeded parts, but the subject matter I was talking about, the ecumenopolis of Coruscant, is by its very design and intent "overkill". I doubt that it would ever be realistically rendered in anything but CGI; practical effects for this would be beyond unwieldy I think. I'm just excited to see how much even more realistic the artists would be able to render that with today's know-how. But I'd by no means be satisfied to trade off a great story/acting/writing/directing just to get another glimpse at the fabled city...

I agree with you regarding Coruscant. CG is really the only way to realize it. But again, we may not need to see that much of Corsucant, or any environment for that matter, in order to tell the story. In the PT entire sequences, that weren't all that engaging or even needed, were put together for the sole purpose of showing Coruscant and other environments off. They may as well have just inserted a travel video for crying out loud. Tying it back to Star Trek, San Francisco and Starfleet Headquarters were rendered better than anything in the PT. And they've gotten MUCH better at blending the live action green screen stuff to the cg environments. It ain't always perfect, but it is light years beyond where they were making the PT. So, if we are to see the capital city in any of the upcoming films, I'm sure it'll look absolutely photorealistic.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't think you need to show Coruscant in all its glory just to create a "glory shot." That was part of the problem with the PT. The effects were a centerpiece rather than a tool. I'm fine with using CG to the extent it's NECESSARY, but I prefer how practical sets and matte paintings actually do better with light. It always seems like everything in CG is heavily overlit or glows from beneath the surface or whatever.

 

[jme3]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

In the PT entire sequences, that weren't all that engaging or even needed, were put together for the sole purpose of showing Coruscant and other environments off.

We're far enough into things now with the backstory of the prequels and all that no, Coruscant doesn't need the showoff treatment it was given in the prequels in order to help establish it. But the sheer scope and spectacular grandeur of such a place helps me to not mind if they throw in the "glory shots".

It always seems like everything in CG is heavily overlit or glows from beneath the surface or whatever.

Exactly. Which is why I'm eager to see the improvements in the technology to see just how realistic it can be made now.

 

[Jedi-72]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

We're far enough into things now with the backstory of the prequels and all that no, Coruscant doesn't need the showoff treatment it was given in the prequels in order to help establish it. But the sheer scope and spectacular grandeur of such a place helps me to not mind if they throw in the "glory shots".

I guess my feeling is that "glory shots" are kind of superfluous and don't necessarily serve to do much more than eat up screen time. The endless stream of establishing shots and prolonged sequences to show off the visuals literally scream "Hey! Look what we can do with a computer!". For me the best use of visuals is when they're used simply to tell the story. The kinds of shots where the shot isn't designed to pack as much crap into the frame as they can, but it's just a shot the same way it would be if they were filming in a real environment. It should simply be the backdrop to the scene rather than be the focal point.

 

[rodneyfaile]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

At this point, practical effects just look better than CGI.

CGI has its use. I always use the Balrog in LOTR for an example. That thing looked gorgeous! But give me Decker's cluttered apartment any day over a green screen Kmart backdrop.

 

[jme3]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I guess my feeling is that "glory shots" are kind of superfluous and don't necessarily serve to do much more than eat up screen time. The endless stream of establishing shots and prolonged sequences to show off the visuals literally scream "Hey! Look what we can do with a computer!". For me the best use of visuals is when they're used simply to tell the story. The kinds of shots where the shot isn't designed to pack as much crap into the frame as they can, but it's just a shot the same way it would be if they were filming in a real environment. It should simply be the backdrop to the scene rather than be the focal point.

I agree entirely...except when it comes to Coruscant! :lol

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I agree entirely...except when it comes to Coruscant! :lol

:lol

I remember an interview with GL during the filming of ROTJ where he talked about building the massive sail barge just for it to be on screen for about 2mins. He said it was important to put all that effort into it but then also realize that it's not the subject your shooting. You can too easily get caught up in how cool the thing you just built is and it will be at the expense of your film.

I feel the same way about much of the "glory shots" in the PT. Including most (but not all) of Coruscant.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

:lol

I remember an interview with GL during the filming of ROTJ where he talked about building the massive sail barge just for it to be on screen for about 2mins. He said it was important to put all that effort into it but then also realize that it's not the subject your shooting. You can too easily get caught up in how cool the thing you just built is and it will be at the expense of your film.

I feel the same way about much of the "glory shots" in the PT. Including most (but not all) of Coruscant.

Eggzactly.

Lucas fell prey to the very thing he warned against: "A special effect without a good story is a really boring thing." And I think he just got so wrapped up with how COOL all his effects were, that it ended up undermining a lot of his story. Actually, undermining isn't really the right word. Distracting. I think he got distracted by the effects and visuals, and as a result figured "The story's good" when it really could've been a LOT better. Although part of me also thinks that, for the prequels, he really DID tell the basic story he wanted to tell about why Anakin fell, and I just didn't find it entertaining. Anakin's motivation? That's ALL Lucas, and I doubt it could've been written in a way that would've made it appeal as much as the version I have in my head. He could've executed his version better, but my version's cooler to me.

 

[Jedi-72]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Eggzactly.

Lucas fell prey to the very thing he warned against: "A special effect without a good story is a really boring thing." And I think he just got so wrapped up with how COOL all his effects were, that it ended up undermining a lot of his story. Actually, undermining isn't really the right word. Distracting. I think he got distracted by the effects and visuals, and as a result figured "The story's good" when it really could've been a LOT better. Although part of me also thinks that, for the prequels, he really DID tell the basic story he wanted to tell about why Anakin fell, and I just didn't find it entertaining. Anakin's motivation? That's ALL Lucas, and I doubt it could've been written in a way that would've made it appeal as much as the version I have in my head. He could've executed his version better, but my version's cooler to me.

AMEN! After the gut-wrenching disappointment that TPM was, I remember thinking that Ep. II would have to be better. Then, I remember reading somewhere that they actually began filming Ep. II without a script. Then, I knew with certainty, Lucas' priorities were completely out of whack. Having waited all those years to make these films, he basically waited until the day before the test to start studying. And the finished scripts give one the impression that he was up all night the night before filming just jotting it all down on a roll of toilet paper just so that he had something to "hand in". It was as if 90-95% of the energy and resources went into polishing the turd, so to speak. The script and the story were almost treated as afterthoughts. And I agree with you about Lucas' "version". I deny the prequels ENTIRELY. The story of Anakin Skywalker has never been told as far as I'm concerned. They simply are not Star Wars. Like you, the version in my head is far better, and in the absence of a suitable story or series of films, that's what I'm sticking with. But, with Disney now the owner there is always hope that Episodes I-III will be made someday.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It's a moot point for me now. The past few years have managed to teach me to ignore the prequels altogether, the same as you. I have my own version in my head, and that's fine. Some of it contains visual elements and such from the PT, but mostly it's just my story, in broad strokes. And I'm good with that. Anakin's story is really...kind of irrelevant, if you're focused on the OT the way I am (the OOT, that is, not the SEs).

It's interesting, really. These past few years, with what happened to Star Wars, and Star Trek and such...it's made me a lot more resilient to my favorite franchises being mishandled. I've gotten better at saying "Yeah, but there's only THREE Indiana Jones movies," and even being able to enjoy those new movies with Star Trek in the title. It's not what I consider Trek, but it can still be an entertaining roller coaster ride (and certainly is a damnsight better than Transformers...).

I guess in a weird way, I have Lucas to thank for that. As a result, though, I don't really have high expectations for future Star Wars films. I don't expect them to feel like Star Wars for me, but still generally being hopeful that they'll be fun films to watch. As long as I can watch the OT, at this point, I don't really care about anything else all that much. There's enough stuff out there for me to keep me happy.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Eggzactly.

Lucas fell prey to the very thing he warned against: "A special effect without a good story is a really boring thing." And I think he just got so wrapped up with how COOL all his effects were, that it ended up undermining a lot of his story. Actually, undermining isn't really the right word. Distracting. I think he got distracted by the effects and visuals, and as a result figured "The story's good" when it really could've been a LOT better. Although part of me also thinks that, for the prequels, he really DID tell the basic story he wanted to tell about why Anakin fell, and I just didn't find it entertaining. Anakin's motivation? That's ALL Lucas, and I doubt it could've been written in a way that would've made it appeal as much as the version I have in my head. He could've executed his version better, but my version's cooler to me.

I would put a slightly different spin on that and suggest Lucas was driven less by who cool effects could look but an obsession with driving technology forward just like he did with practical effects in the creation of ILM, sound design and the formation of Skywalker Sound and digital film making. The man's history is filled with the obvious answer, he is a technocrat. He is more interested in the technology of film, less in it's creation and storytelling at this point. I think the only other thing about film making he loves is editing. Having said that, I think Into Darkness shows how great a film can look using a balanced approach to practical and CG and JJ seems to have a great eye for that as well as letting his actors not get lost in the sauce.

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I would put a slightly different spin on that and suggest Lucas was driven less by who cool effects could look but an obsession with driving technology forward just like he did with practical effects in the creation of ILM, sound design and the formation of Skywalker Sound and digital film making. The man's history is filled with the obvious answer, he is a technocrat. He is more interested in the technology of film, less in it's creation and storytelling at this point. I think the only other thing about film making he loves is editing. Having said that, I think Into Darkness shows how great a film can look using a balanced approach to practical and CG and JJ seems to have a great eye for that as well as letting his actors not get lost in the sauce.

I haven't seen Into Darkness yet, but that's encouraging, at least from a technical point of view. I think you're probably right that Lucas is more a "big ideas"-and-technology guy, rather than an effective storyteller, but that still goes against his earlier statement about F/X without a story. I think the problem is that his story was just...weak. No amount of kickass fight sequences or eye-popping F/X could save it. And he was unwilling to relinquish control to other people for "his stories," so we got what we got.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

All he would have had to do is turn over the directing responsibility. Would have made a huge difference. I enjoyed the story of the prequels and still don't hate them.

 

[SuperFLY]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Eggzactly.

Lucas fell prey to the very thing he warned against: "A special effect without a good story is a really boring thing." And I think he just got so wrapped up with how COOL all his effects were, that it ended up undermining a lot of his story.

spot on right there..

he seemed like such an over excited child in the prequels filling every scene up with as much random 'gumph' as possible.. a wife for jabba, daft droids, farting animals.. its just childish and not necessary. not just effects too, his story stunk of the same. chewie mates with yoda? i can't help he threw that in just for the sake of it.

the worst crime though was the re-done OT. one example would be anh when luke's just seen his family burnt alive, lost everything.. now decided to leave the only home he's known to follow 'ben' and what does lucas do? fills the background with jawa's falling off creatures, stepping in dung, pointless droids bobbing about in the background making silly noises

i think you were right with your original phrasing of undermining the story as it really did.. completely undermined the solemn feeling the story had at that point and filled it with things that belong on a childrens cartoon show.. ruined..

i really hope its a little more 'stripped back' in the next ones but i doubt it. it'll be a 100mph roller coaster ride with plenty of lens flare and action up the wazoo.. but.. at least it won't be 'silly'

 

[Solo4114]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Honestly, I'm ok with what you describe. I don't expect much more than that anymore. If it's entertaining and a good thrill ride, that's fine by me. The OT is its own thing, separate and special to me. Everything else is secondary to me.