Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

[Bryancd]

Regarding the flashback sequence showing the Knights of Ren among bodies in the ground, in response to a timeline question on Twitter, Pablo Hidalgo said that scene takes place "closer" in the timeline to TFA, which makes me think that scene does not depict the slaughter at the Jedi Temple.

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Totally forgot about that...which rather goes to prove my point. It's easy to miss a lot of this stuff because so much is happening in this film, and at such a rapid pace.

And again speaks to Rey's latent Force abilities which come rushing out and she has no idea why. It's IN the film.

 

[Solo4114]

Regarding the flashback sequence showing the Knights of Ren among bodies in the ground, in response to a timeline question on Twitter, Pablo Hidalgo said that scene takes place "closer" in the timeline to TFA, which makes me think that scene does not depict the slaughter at the Jedi Temple.

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And again speaks to Rey's latent Force abilities which come rushing out and she has no idea why. It's IN the film.

Right, I think there's plenty in the film to counter the "Mary Sue" argument, but I also can understand why folks might miss some of it.

 

[joshvanrad]

You know for Christmas my wife bought me one of the worlds leading brands of aftershave, its immensely popular, its constantly on tv adverts, most people absolutely love it.

I hated it, it makes me choke.

Now does that make it a bad product, or just not the right one for me?

You should go on TheShavingForum.com and make everyone hate it!

 

[Solo4114]

I get some of the frustration. I mean, when they first came out, I could not, for the life of me, understand how anyone would like the Prequels. They were so obviously awful films to me that I just couldn't wrap my brain around how people could be like "I like 'em!"

Actually, come to think about it, it used to absolutely infuriate me that so many bad movies were being made, so many reboots, and rebrandings and such. I still have much disdain for the practice, but I'm a lot more sanguine about the whole thing than I used to be. But, like, the fact that films like Transformers make billions of dollars, and friends of mine -- people whom I regard as intelligent people (most of the time) -- say "Oh, it's a fun movie! Lighten up!" it just enraged me. The thing is, I came to realize that no amount of me saying "But don't you see?! It's a BAD movie! It's crap! It's not fun, it's just big explosions and stupidity for 2.5 hours!" would convince them that it wasn't fun. They knew it was crap. They knew it was dumb explosions. They just didn't care and enjoyed the film anyway. The stuff that I saw as such glaring, obvious, inexcusable problems...they acknowledged existed, and still didn't care about.

Rather than fight with them about it, though, I ultimately came to the realization that it just wasn't worth it. This was really a matter of taste. It's not like we were arguing about whether the films were or weren't dumb. I mean, my wife and I disagree on whether National Treasure is a good "bad" film, or a bad "bad" film. We agree that it's a bad film in the sense of being cheesy and kinda dumb, but we disagree on whether the particular approach to cheesy stupidity is good or bad. She loves Independence Day. I loathe it. The stuff I hate about it is the stuff she finds delightfully cheesy. The stuff I say is scientifically stupid, she just...doesn't care about, including the whole "virus into the alien computer" bit and Randy Quaid doing a full vertical climb for, like, a minute and a half in an F/A-18 without stalling. She doesn't care. She acknowledges these issues, but they just...don't bother her.

Ultimately, I think many of the complaints people have about this film boil down to a matter of taste. "It's a retread of ANH!" Yeah. It is, in some ways. Not 100%, but it definitely has a lot of overlap with ANH. Doesn't bother me, other folks can't forgive it. "It went so quickly! It was like there was no time to breathe!" Yeah, no argument there. I'd have preferred a little less of a frantic pace to the film, but that's kinda how modern blockbusters go.

So, at least with that stuff, it all just boils down to "I liked it," "Oh yeah? I didn't." At which point...>shrug< different strokes, I guess. The only points I think are worth debating are the things where, like Bryancd says, "It's in the film." I can understand missing them in some cases. I can understand criticizing the film by saying "They could have hit that better, or taken their time more to let those moments register more effectively," but I don't think you can say that they didn't exist. They did. They just may not have been effective for all viewers, and yes, that's a flaw in the film. But that just brings us back to the whole "I liked it"/"I didn't" debate, which isn't even really a debate as much as it is repetitive statement of one's opinion.


For the record, I liked it.

 

[p51]

The one thing I didn't get (have only seen it once). The rebels are rebels again, why wasn't the Rebellion forces folded into the military of whatever government existed after the empire fell?
The First Order appears to be a rebel force of their own with no government backing. How'd they fund all that?
And the biggest question of all; If neither the Rebel forces nor the First Order are government backed, where were the real military forces of whatever government that was in place after the Empire was done?

 

[Solo4114]

The one thing I didn't get (have only seen it once). The rebels are rebels again, why wasn't the Rebellion forces folded into the military of whatever government existed after the empire fell?
The First Order appears to be a rebel force of their own with no government backing. How'd they fund all that?
And the biggest question of all; If neither the Rebel forces nor the First Order are government backed, where were the real military forces of whatever government that was in place after the Empire was done?

Yeah, that part was confusing for me, too. Apparently, there's some backstory provided in the novel.

The way I understand it, it goes like this:

- The Empire -- is broken. Ultimately defeated a while after Endor, at the Battle of Jakku. Not completely destroyed, though, and a peace treaty was signed requiring the Imperial forces to disarm, which they supposedly did.

- The Republic -- does exist. It was formed after Endor, and was finally able to attain peace after Jakku. The Republic also considerably dials back its military forces, as a result of the peace treaty (not clear on whether the Republic is required to do so per the treaty, or if it's more of a "why are we paying for this army when we no longer need it?"). The Republic doesn't have much of a military force of its own (although local systems probably do). What forces it does have, it has refused to commit to fighting the First Order, for reasons we aren't clear about. Fear of being wiped out? Hope for a negotiated settlement? General distaste for war? Corruption within? We're not sure yet. But they aren't sending what troops they do have.

- The First Order -- is basically Nazi Germany, occupying the Rhineland, annexing Czechoslovakia, invading Poland, and rearming in direct violation of the Versailles Treaty. Although a lot of that is being done in secret on the outer rim (e.g. Starkiller base's construction). They apparently supplement their forces with indoctrinated children (e.g. Finn's experience). They are led by Supreme Fuhrer...er...LEADER Snoke, whose backstory is as yet unrevealed, but apparently was somehow involved with the Republic at some point. There's also the Knights of Ren who are an as-yet unrevealed group of Dark Side users who may be a sort of parallel to the Jedi, but we really don't know their connection to the politics of the First Order. The First Order's goal apparently is to restore the Empire and restore...er...order to the galaxy (THEIR order, that is).

- The Resistance -- is made up of ex-Rebellion vets and younger fighters who see the threat of the First Order, recognize that there can be no bargaining with them, and are determined to fight them. There are some senators in the Republic who are sympathetic to the Resistance and have been funneling funds and resources to them. It's unclear where they get all their gear, but apparently they're buying or otherwise obtaining new model X-wings.


The closest historical analogy that I can see is that, whereas the Fall of the Republic/Rise of the Empire mirrored the fall of Weimar Germany and Hitler's rise to power in a political sense, the rise of the First Order and the Republic's trepidation in engaging it in open battle more mirrors the rise of the Nazi military. I'd say what you're looking at is more like, oh, 1940 with the Resistance being closest to Britain, fighting alone, getting "lend-lease" aid, but not direct military support from the U.S. (roughly analogous to the Republic in this case).

Now imagine if the Nazis had an inter-continental atomic cannon, and nuked Washington, D.C., and then right after that, a British air raid destroyed their cannon.

And that's where we are at the end of TFA.

 

[Coop]

I'm hoping we get to see Kylo Ren put the band (The Knights of Ren) back together in Ep VIII.

 

[annanake]

It also says in the opening crawl that the resistance is backed by the republic . they could have added the word secretly and it would have helped a lot in understanding the dynamics of the political situation. As hux in his speech says they turn a blind eye seeming referring to the rebels oh I mean resistance !

 

[annanake]

I'm hoping we get to see Kylo Ren put the band (The Knights of Ren) back together in Ep VIII.

If not that would be one of the biggest waste of characters EVER . it would make Phasma seem like a well rounded flushed out character in comparison. Lol

 

[annanake]

I think you definitely need another viewing.
Remember to watch for the wipes. They're there a-plenty. .






Hoom... That's an interesting point. I see it again in a week. I'll watch that sequence specifically. I know there was some Maz stuff cut -- perhaps including the underground collapse. We see Chewie throw off some rubble as they emerge. Maybe Finn lost it somewhere in that mess, and the clarification of that was lost when the (probable) scene was cut...




--Jonah

The cutting room floor IS probably where the answer lies and they ethier missed it of figured they could skate by mostly unnoticed . it always bothered me so I watched closely to see if I missed him loseing or setting down the blaster and reilzed it just disappeared off his shoulder in the film lol .
Cutting room floor another saying our grandkids will wonder " where did that came from ? "

 

[cylon]

was able to spot any single cgi shot in the movie. beside the pratical effects the film is plenty of computer generated crap.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Regarding the flashback sequence showing the Knights of Ren among bodies in the ground, in response to a timeline question on Twitter, Pablo Hidalgo said that scene takes place "closer" in the timeline to TFA, which makes me think that scene does not depict the slaughter at the Jedi Temple.

Yeah, I said early on that I felt Rey's vision was chronological. Thus, Cloud City => Luke mourning the destruction of the academy => the Knights of Ren in the rain => Rey being left on Jakku => her upcoming confrontation with Kylo in the forest on Starkiller Base. How much time passes between each of those chunks we don't really know (yet).

The one thing I didn't get (have only seen it once). The rebels are rebels again, why wasn't the Rebellion forces folded into the military of whatever government existed after the empire fell?
The First Order appears to be a rebel force of their own with no government backing. How'd they fund all that?
And the biggest question of all; If neither the Rebel forces nor the First Order are government backed, where were the real military forces of whatever government that was in place after the Empire was done?

Yeah, that part was confusing for me, too. Apparently, there's some backstory provided in the novel.

The way I understand it, it goes like this:

I'll quote myself from the pre-release-spoiler thread...

From Aftermath, Shattered Empire, the Visual Dictionary, and a couple other sources, the reconstructed gist is roughly... The Empire didn't quit after the Battle of Endor. Palpatine had contingency plans, among them the Scouring of Naboo (where he was from). The Rebels managed to thwart that. But at that point it was treason to repeat the "Rebel propeganda" that the Emperor was dead. A few months later, the Empire was starting to hurt. They were looking more and more to the Rim for planets they could secure or intimidate into supplying what they needed to keep fighting. The Rebels declared a New Republic, with the capitol on Mon Mothma's homeworld of Chandrila. There were several reasons for this. The Empire still held Coruscant, and even if they didn't, there'd be a strong Imperial Loyalist presence for some time, what with billions of inhabitants. It had also become a seat of corruption over the last several centuries at least, what with the waning of the Old Republic and decades of Empire.

The Alliance wanted to start fresh with the New Republic. Part of this was setting up the rotating capitol idea, so that the sort of decay that led to the demise of the Old Republic might be prevented or slowed. And part of this was working toward eliminating the Rebel (now Republic) fleet. The Empire had ruled through force, and the new government didn't want even the perception or suspicion that they might do the same.

About a year after the Battle of Endor, the most staunchly Imperialist forces had regrouped at Jakku, which housed a secret Imperial research facility at that time. They fought a last-stand battle over the planet, with crippled Imperial ships using their tractor beams to drag Republic ships down with them. The Imperial loss at Jakku broke the back of the Imperial holdout, and they signed the Galactic Concordance that included strong and specific disarmament policies and reparations. Most acquiesced, but the hardline loyalists trashed the research facility and fled into the Unknown Regions.

There are a lot of gaps in all that that are going to continue to be filled in over the next few years, but we've got a scaffold already in place.

Hopefully that clarifies things for both of you. Even if I don't think one should have to winnow through ancillary materials to fill in important story points...

--Jonah

 

[Solo4114]

I think I basically covered all of that.

Basically...


Anyway, yeah, I agree that you shouldn't need to research all of the backstory, but I also understand why they didn't include all of that in the new film. That's, like, 2-3 films' worth of stuff right there.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Yeah. I was specifically addressing things like whether the Republic was required to disarm (they weren't) and that there was a split between the Imperials who capitulated and those who fled who became the First Order and stuff like that.

--Jonah

 

[p51]

They could have covered all this backstory. When they landed at that bar, they could have had a grizzled old vet type give the basics for a couple of minutes without too much hindrance to the pacing...

 

[The Wook]

Two honest questions for you:

1. How many times have you watched the film at this point? Just the once, or more than once?

2. If the subsequent films show Rey's limitations, explain the source of Rey's power, and show her doubts, fears, and growth, would you still consider her a "Mary Sue"?

I ask the first question because it may simply be that you missed the attempts to show Rey's own surprise at her abilities or her confusion that not everyone has those abilities. As I've said, the best examples I can think of are where she and Finn are jubilant after flying away on the Falcon, and her reaction to figuring out how to do the mind trick.

There's also the scene where (if memory serves) she acts surprised that Finn can't speak droid, implying that she doesn't realize her own abilities are special.

Lastly, there's the final fight with Kylo Ren to consider. At the opening of the fight, Rey does get her ass handed to her. (Or, rather, she gets Force-blasted into a tree and knocked the f--- out.) Also, technically, it took four people to even neutralize -- not kill, neutralize -- Kylo Ren. It took his own internal conflict at killing his father, it took Chewie's already-demonstrated-to-be-super-powerful bowcaster shot to the gut to stagger him, it took Finn wearing him down at the start of the fight, and then finally it took Rey fighting, losing, and then somehow calling on the Force (in a way the film suggests she doesn't understand) to beat him. Not exactly a "gimme" of a win. More like a "by the skin of her teeth" to me.

However, I absolutely concede that this stuff happens so quickly that it's easily missed. In the Falcon scene, Rey and Finn just seem happy and are kind of talking over each other. In the "you don't speak droid?" scene, it goes by in an instant. In the "and leave your gun!" scene, again, it goes by quickly. And with Kylo Ren, it's all intercut with the X-wing shots and happening really rapid-fire. I think that, in this sense, the pacing of this stuff may not have allowed these moments to register for a lot of viewers, and that's certainly one of the film's big flaws (albeit and understandable one, from my perspective, if you want an under-3-hrs film).

1) I saw it the Thursday night it opened, and hated it. I walked out of the theater crestfallen, that the filmmakers had screwed up so badly, squandering an opportunity to make something truly special. Not ANH/ESB special...I knew that was unrealistic. But something special, nonetheless.

I loathed the idea of sitting through it a second time, but I did, to try to give the film another chance. To try to pick up anything I might've missed the first time, in the hopes that it was better than I thought. My second viewing was about a week after my first, and after I walked out of the theater that second time, I was slightly less depressed, because much of the shock of it being so awful was gone (having already seen it). But only slightly. I still cannot believe what a wasted opportunity it was.

As a lifelong film buff, I am a very observant film-watcher. I did catch all of those examples you cited, plus the one IP cited, during my first viewing. And I think Daisy, whom I adore, did a fantastic job delivering every last one of her lines. But the modern pacing of the film, of which I am not a fan, was such that there was little to no time to digest what she was saying, per the writers' attempts to convey to the audience that Rey is as astounded and nonplussed as the audience is, regarding her unprecedented facility with the Force. I heard the attempts, but they were overwhelmed by the pacing.

But even if the pacing was more chill, to allow that stuff to sink in, I still don't like the idea of her being so powerful so quickly. No training, and too little struggling, sacrificing, fearing, and failing. Why does everything in Hollywood movies have to be bigger, faster, badder, louder than the films they get their inspiration (and in the case of TFA, their complete story) from? I don't like that the JP filmmakers felt that T.Rex is no longer big enough or bad enough, that they have to concoct an Indominus Rex! I don't like Rey (regardless of her sex) being without flaws, rollicking through the adventure with such ease and fearlessness. She's not relatable. She's not believable.

I don't care how banged up Kylo was, he should've destroyed Rey in that fight. This idea being propagated by Hollywood and the media that women are just as strong as men is absolutely absurd. Tell me, how many women are in Major League Baseball, the NFL, the NBA, and the NHL? None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. There never will be a woman in any of those top-level men's leagues, because women are physically inferior to men. Period. Now, I realize Rey lives in a make-believe world where the Force is a great equalizer, but this is all the more reason to show her develop her abilities, before taking on a highly skilled darkside Force villain in close one-on-one combat. But no, a teenage girl can beat down a near-Sith Lord with a weapon she's never wielded and he's highly trained with, just like Ronda Rousey can beat up Floyd Mayweather. Yeah right. You're correct, Dan...Rey is Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Which was fine--awesome, actually--for a campy TV show. But not for Star Wars, a film that's supposed to have a gravitas to it, and relatable and believable heroes and heroines.

2) If the subsequent films show Rey's limitations, explain the source of her power, and show her doubts, fears, and growth, will I still consider her a "Mary Sue"? It's difficult for me to speculate on that, but if forced to, I'd probably say she was a Mary Sue in Ep. VII, but a flawed heroine in Ep. VIII, etc. I don't know if it will retroactively alter my opinion of Ep.VII. And if it does, I gotta tell ya, Rey being a Mary Sue is one of MANY problems with TFA. If we learn about Rey's unprecedented powers, see her flaws, and witness her growth in Ep. VIII, that will be good, but none of that will change the fact that I hated all of this:

* story is an uninspired, lazy, and cynical ripoff of anh (this demerit alone could fill a page if i broke it down all the ways it ripped it off--but i'll spare you)
* the soundtrack sucked
* ford phoned in his performance
* i didn't realize carrie fisher was a ventriloquist
* chewie mask wasn't right--looked cgi--not a hair outta place--too small--head wrong shape--eyes looked cgi'ed at times
* chewie acted out of character, in egregious ways
* cgi monsters were totally fake looking--that whole scene was embarrassing to watch
* distracting scottish accent
* unnecessary characters (finn: necessary for the agenda, but not the story)
* boring cantina creatures
* poor lighting
* chewie's way underplayed reaction to han's death (he shoulda been ripping stormtrooper arms outta sockets!!!)
* leia snubbing chewie
* chewie's adoring look at rey in cockpit en route to luke...it was cringe-worthy
* poor editing and breakneck pacing
* telegraphing plotlines
* falcon taking no damage (it shoulda been in pieces--regardless of shields)
* ridiculously heavy-handed parallels to the third reich
* hux--annoying as hell
* kylo face reveal premature (shoulda happened on catwalk w/his father)
* kylo helmet heavy as an anvil--so stupid
* driver was miscast (his acting was fine, but he looks nothing like ford or fisher)
* solo and finn spot rey across a huge expanse, and then boom, they find her around a corner
* levity misplaced in perilous moments/scenes that should've been fraught with tension, thus removing all tension. so cartoon-ish.

I know I'm forgetting stuff, but wow, add to all that my gripes about Rey's infallibility, and well, can you see why I didn't care for this picture?

The Wook

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I'd reply, with cogent data, but I know you'll ignore it again. *shrug*

--Jonah

 

[Bryancd]

The Wook, when you say Finn is "necessary for the agenda, but not the story" is that because he is black part it's part of the "liberal Hollywood agenda" theory?

 

[matty matt]

@The Wook, when you say Finn is "necessary for the agenda, but not the story" is that because he is black part it's part of the "liberal Hollywood agenda" theory?

That's the way I took it. Hey Wook, you might find some kindred spirits over on the IMDB boards. They share a lot of your sentiments.

 

[p51]

I don't like Rey (regardless of her sex) being without flaws, rollicking through the adventure with such ease and fearlessness. She's not relatable. She's not believable.

I don't think any more so than Luke was or wasn't. Luke's only flaw was he was anxious to get away for adventure and impatient. Rey's character was not too far from the mark in the same ways. She wanted to leave just as bad but didn't want to risk missing parents that deep down, she already knew were never coming back.

* chewie's way underplayed reaction to han's death (he shoulda been ripping stormtrooper arms outta sockets!!!)

Agreed, I was disappointed that he didn't do anything. Heck, I don't recall any Wookie ripping anyone's arms out of their sockets in any of the SW films, now that you brought it up. What a gyp! :sick