Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

[Solo4114]

For me, having Snoke be Plagueis would be playing into the whole "Star Wars is a fishbowl universe" issue that I absolutely hated about the Prequels.

This is a vast, sprawling universe with all kinds of people in it. There is no reason why all of these characters have to be intertwined to the degree they are or could be.


I mean, ok, Rey's a Kenobiwalker or something. Fine. But to then go beyond that and say "AAAAAAAND Snoke is Plagueis!" takes it too far. I mean, where do you draw the line? When Finn is the long-lost son of Ice Cream Maker Guy?

I think this film -- for all of its similarities and thematic checks to the OT -- did a good job of expanding the galaxy, showing more of it, and positioning us to move away from the same old stuff.

Snoke could be any number of people. He need not be Plagueis. Playing Plagueis' theme at the same time doesn't automatically mean that's who he is. I tend to ascribe much more intentionality and subtlety to John Williams than that. I'd say that it's far more likely that he played the Plagueis theme to symbolize that whoever Snoke is, he is clearly a manipulator of young, impressionable, troubled men. Let's not forget that Palpatine tells Anakin about Plagueis to lure him to the Dark Side by playing on his fears. So, if anything, I'd say that Snoke is manipulating Kylo Ren in a similar fashion, and that it's the manipulation itself that warrants the music, rather than the literal interpretation of "They played the Plagueis theme, ergo Snoke = Plagueis."

 

[Bryancd]

Solo 4114, Dan it's not the same music, see my post above. And I agree with you from a story perspective, making him Plagueis is more problematic then it's worth. It undermines Palpatine's story and rise to dominance and is limiting in regards what the story group can do with the character. An unknown, unexplored Snoke is much more compelling.

 

[annanake]

Regarding the music, you should go listen the most recent
episode of Star Wars Oxygen podcast where David Collins does a direct comparison of the Opera House music, which by the way isnt a theme, it's source music. They sound nothing alike when you break them down note for note.

Didn't say it was theme music in ROTS (maybe in an earlier post I did though not sure) I said it was played while discussing Plagueis . and you can say the same thing about both Ren and Reys theme as they were used in TFA vastly different depending on the situation they were in . still supposed to subconsciously bring to mind both characters. That is what most music in movies does is guide you subconscious to where they want you to be. it usually is not as in your face as the imperial march.

 

[annanake]

The Sith and the Jedi have been at each others throats for thousands of years but now it makes the universe a fishbowl ???????

 

[Bryancd]

Didn't say it was theme music in ROTS (maybe in an earlier post I did though not sure) I said it was played while discussing Plagueis . and you can say the same thing about both Ren and Reys theme as they were used in TFA vastly different depending on the situation they were in . still supposed to subconsciously bring to mind both characters. That is what most music in movies does is guide you subconscious to where they want you to be. it usually is not as in your face as the imperial march.

And what I am saying is that the two pieces of music are not the same. Somewhat similar but in ROTS the music is what is actually being played in the Opera House, called source music. That's music the characters are actually hearing. The music played in the scene's with Snoke are theme music that the characters are not hearing.

And I would bet another dollar that John Williams has no idea who Plaguies is and was not instructed to create intentionally similar music as part of this mystery.

http://podbay.fm/show/593355728/e/1452643609

 

[Wolfsburg]

For me, having Snoke be Plagueis would be playing into the whole "Star Wars is a fishbowl universe" issue that I absolutely hated about the Prequels.

This is a vast, sprawling universe with all kinds of people in it. There is no reason why all of these characters have to be intertwined to the degree they are or could be.


I mean, ok, Rey's a Kenobiwalker or something. Fine. But to then go beyond that and say "AAAAAAAND Snoke is Plagueis!" takes it too far. I mean, where do you draw the line? When Finn is the long-lost son of Ice Cream Maker Guy?

I think this film -- for all of its similarities and thematic checks to the OT -- did a good job of expanding the galaxy, showing more of it, and positioning us to move away from the same old stuff.

Snoke could be any number of people. He need not be Plagueis. Playing Plagueis' theme at the same time doesn't automatically mean that's who he is. I tend to ascribe much more intentionality and subtlety to John Williams than that. I'd say that it's far more likely that he played the Plagueis theme to symbolize that whoever Snoke is, he is clearly a manipulator of young, impressionable, troubled men. Let's not forget that Palpatine tells Anakin about Plagueis to lure him to the Dark Side by playing on his fears. So, if anything, I'd say that Snoke is manipulating Kylo Ren in a similar fashion, and that it's the manipulation itself that warrants the music, rather than the literal interpretation of "They played the Plagueis theme, ergo Snoke = Plagueis."

I agree that the PT made the galaxy seem too small but I wouldn't have a problem if he were Plagueis. Chewie palling around with Yoda is one thing but I don't equate Snoke being Plagueis as being too absurd. It would turn that scene in Ep. 3 into a nice little bit of foreshadowing of threats to come. I think it'd make more sense for someone of Snoke's importance to be at least tangentially related to the big players in the galaxy than just a Joe Blow that came outta nowhere. Maybe when everything is said and done Snoke will be more interconnected than we thought but that could easily be solved with him being Plagueis, with relatively little exposition. I can't imagine how having Plagueis being Snoke would be more "problematic" than just some random guy coming onto the scene and having to explain his story.

 

[Solo4114]

The Sith and the Jedi have been at each others throats for thousands of years but now it makes the universe a fishbowl ???????

Yes. It does.
Ultimately, I see that story choice as myopic and rooted way too much in the past, and an obscure, narratively pointless past at that.

The thing I most enjoyed about this new movie was how much it looks to the future and seems to suggest that there's real uncertainty about where it could go. I LIKE that, right now, it's all questionmarks and unpredictability. We haven't had that in a Star Wars film since the 80s. Certainly, not to this degree.

So, to take that potential for expansion and root it back in "Oh, this is all stuff you heard about before" strikes me as a massive and tragic waste of an opportunity.


So, the Jedi have been fighting the Sith for thousands of years. So what? Does that mean that all Star Wars conflicts for all time must always be about Jedi fighting the Sith? Do we basically just have to keep reiterating all the films that came before?


I want something new, not something mired in the old. This film had a LOT of stuff that was "old." I accept that it was necessary, but I think it's necessary to move the story forwards, not backwards. They had to create something familiar, so that they could do something unfamiliar next. If they just go back to the same ol' same ol', well, that doesn't really interest me because I've seen that already. I know how it ends.

Moreover, I don't think anything is really gained by having Snoke = Plagueis. Plagueis is from one line of one scene of the movie, and literally never appears on screen. For all we know, he's a totally made-up character that Palpatine dreamed up on the spot, just to BS Anakin. "Oh, yeah, there was totally this guy...um....Darth...uh....Sick..face... Wait. PLAGUEIS. Yeah, that's it. And he, um, could control life! He could create life with the dark side of the force, and he figured out how to totally never die!"

I don't think we need to "honor" the previous films, or do callbacks to them, or whathaveyou. I'd rather the story be sound without relying on referencing the old stuff. Now that we have a broad audience locked into the franchise, let's take it somewhere really new and exciting and interesting, not back to the same old Sith vs. Jedi thing.

I mean, didn't the EU get killed just so that we could do new stuff? Let's not let the EU's sacrifice be for naught!

 

[Bryancd]

Yes. It does.
Ultimately, I see that story choice as myopic and rooted way too much in the past, and an obscure, narratively pointless past at that.

The thing I most enjoyed about this new movie was how much it looks to the future and seems to suggest that there's real uncertainty about where it could go. I LIKE that, right now, it's all questionmarks and unpredictability. We haven't had that in a Star Wars film since the 80s. Certainly, not to this degree.

So, to take that potential for expansion and root it back in "Oh, this is all stuff you heard about before" strikes me as a massive and tragic waste of an opportunity.


So, the Jedi have been fighting the Sith for thousands of years. So what? Does that mean that all Star Wars conflicts for all time must always be about Jedi fighting the Sith? Do we basically just have to keep reiterating all the films that came before?


I want something new, not something mired in the old. This film had a LOT of stuff that was "old." I accept that it was necessary, but I think it's necessary to move the story forwards, not backwards. They had to create something familiar, so that they could do something unfamiliar next. If they just go back to the same ol' same ol', well, that doesn't really interest me because I've seen that already. I know how it ends.

Moreover, I don't think anything is really gained by having Snoke = Plagueis. Plagueis is from one line of one scene of the movie, and literally never appears on screen. For all we know, he's a totally made-up character that Palpatine dreamed up on the spot, just to BS Anakin. "Oh, yeah, there was totally this guy...um....Darth...uh....Sick..face... Wait. PLAGUEIS. Yeah, that's it. And he, um, could control life! He could create life with the dark side of the force, and he figured out how to totally never die!"

I don't think we need to "honor" the previous films, or do callbacks to them, or whathaveyou. I'd rather the story be sound without relying on referencing the old stuff. Now that we have a broad audience locked into the franchise, let's take it somewhere really new and exciting and interesting, not back to the same old Sith vs. Jedi thing.

I mean, didn't the EU get killed just so that we could do new stuff? Let's not let the EU's sacrifice be for naught!

Exactly right, which is why Snoke and Ren are not Sith and why Snoke is not a Darth anything. He's new, let's have fun with that.

 

[Solo4114]

I agree that the PT made the galaxy seem too small but I wouldn't have a problem if he were Plagueis. Chewie palling around with Yoda is one thing but I don't equate Snoke being Plagueis as being too absurd. It would turn that scene in Ep. 3 into a nice little bit of foreshadowing of threats to come. I think it'd make more sense for someone of Snoke's importance to be at least tangentially related to the big players in the galaxy than just a Joe Blow that came outta nowhere. Maybe when everything is said and done Snoke will be more interconnected than we thought but that could easily be solved with him being Plagueis, with relatively little exposition. I can't imagine how having Plagueis being Snoke would be more "problematic" than just some random guy coming onto the scene and having to explain his story.

I actually think it'd require quite a bit of exposition. Do you really think that people remember who this Plagueis character is? He literally never appears on screen. He's mentioned once, in one scene, of one movie, of a trilogy that most people think was nowhere near as good as the originals. He's not part of the cultural consciousness. I mean, Snoke might as well be a resurrected or cloned Anakin. At least THAT guy people would KNOW. But Plagueis? I mean, he might as well be revealed to be one of the guys who got blown up in the Battle of Yavin, as far as the bulk of the audience is concerned.

"I am.........THERON NETT!!!!!"

"I'm sorry...you're who?"

"Theron Nett!!!!"

"Nope. Doesn't ring a bell."

"Oh, come on guys! Theron Nett! I would have blown up the Death Star if freakin' Luke had kept those TIEs off our backs in the trench run! Now I shall HAVE MY REVENGE ON THAT INCOMPETENT FOOL!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!"

"Wait. Didn't you die?"

"I got better."

 

[annanake]

Palatine and Vader over coffee on the death star

Vader : so when are we gonna study that mastery over death thing ?

Palatine: hush well get to it . so anyway yeah my old mater studied for hundreds of years and even learned how to bring people back from the dead like I was telling you back at the bubble fish opera house .

Vader: so then what happened ?

Palatine: we'll I killed him of course .

Vader : so no chance he could you know come back since that WAS his super duper Sith power.

Palatine: don't be silly of course not!

Meanwhile on Tattoine with Obi Wan and Qui Gon

Qui Gon: yeah so the last 15 years before my death I had been studying how to bring my life force back to existence and boom here I am . don't worry Its easy i will teach you how to do it and you will be more powerful than you ever imagined ! I already taught Yoda and if anakin ever dies hell we can show him how to do it even after he dies .

Obi Wan : cool !

 

[kristen jones]

Its a mystery they are creating it now .

But its not Plagueis !

I love it.
I just love how you know the facts even before the story group is done creating it .

Is it like Edgar Casey sleep divining?
Or Nostradamus water divining?
Or do you have your Own techniques?

It is opinion man same as us .
the movie is not out , not filmed and not even finished being written yet .

Yes but Snoke was conceived and written into the PREVIOUS film. So even though they may still need to plot out what details they show us, I'm sure it's quite plain that they knew who Snoke was when they invented him and put him in Episode 7.

WE may not know whom he is clearly until Ep. 8... but the same is not true for the Story Group... they INVENTED him.

And besides, Bryan was right about just everything else up to this point, so I'm willing to bet Snoke isn't Plagieus either.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, The Force Awakens has established the connection to the previous movies; it's time to move on and find some new ground to cover.

I agree 100%

 

[Bryancd]

The reason Darth Plagueis was trying to live forever is because Sith can't manifest themselves in the Force after death like Jedi can. And we don't know in canon if he ever actually succeeded.

 

[kristen jones]

Another subtle hint I have bought up before the only two character's who the word wise was used for is Plagueis the wise as said by Palatine
And when Kylo defends Snoke to Han " No the supreme leader is wise"

.

not true. Anakin said that Obi wan was as WISE as Master Yoda, and as Powerful as Master Windu in Ep. 2

 

[JD]

For all intents and purposes - at this point in time Ren and Snook are Sith. There was nothing in the movie about them not being Sith, so I think the majority of the audience will think they are Sith. I think the Vader-worship implies this, too.

I know and realize that we are being told they are not Sith. I do wonder if that might change. It seems rather convenient either way: the Sith were destroyed with Vader and Palpatine; but, here's these new bad guys who have an Empire and act a whole lot like the old Sith - or, "guess what!? The Sith are back!"



Darth Vegas? First, JJ doesn't outright deny that Snoke is Plagueis here and based on JJ's desire for secrecy and his history with Khan, well... anything is possible.

Had Plagueis been a bigger part of SW movie universe, it might make sense for him to be Snoke. Plagueis was basically a throwaway line in Revenge of the Sith (while important as it gave Anakin some motive), that I'd argue most won't even recall (his name at the very least) - so I don't see the need to lie or mislead (see the video). I'm not sure what of the new SW canon has been said about him. I think it's important to remember that most of what's out there can be retconned further down the road (I think even the novelizations are "flexible" canon) and even Pablo Hidalgo reminds us "Don't cite tweets as canon."

 

[Wolfsburg]

I actually think it'd require quite a bit of exposition. Do you really think that people remember who this Plagueis character is? He literally never appears on screen. He's mentioned once, in one scene, of one movie, of a trilogy that most people think was nowhere near as good as the originals. He's not part of the cultural consciousness. I mean, Snoke might as well be a resurrected or cloned Anakin. At least THAT guy people would KNOW. But Plagueis? I mean, he might as well be revealed to be one of the guys who got blown up in the Battle of Yavin, as far as the bulk of the audience is concerned.

"I am.........THERON NETT!!!!!"

"I'm sorry...you're who?"

"Theron Nett!!!!"

"Nope. Doesn't ring a bell."

"Oh, come on guys! Theron Nett! I would have blown up the Death Star if freakin' Luke had kept those TIEs off our backs in the trench run! Now I shall HAVE MY REVENGE ON THAT INCOMPETENT FOOL!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!"

"Wait. Didn't you die?"

"I got better."

Well that's the fault of the movie goer for not paying attention as far as I'm concerned. The point is he was mentioned. The Theron Nett analogy doesn't apply at all. That would be like thinking people must've been baffled when Jabba the Hutt appeared in ROTJ because he was only briefly mentioned twice (thrice?) before. Jabba was just a distant throwaway antagonist to Han until we finally meet him in the last movie (disregarding the SE). Again, I don't actually think they are planning for Snoke to be Plagueis but I certainly don't think it'd be an illogical, bad idea if he were.

 

[annanake]

not true. Anakin said that Obi wan was as WISE as
Master Yoda, and as Powerful as Master Windu in Ep. 2

True that's is why my next line after that was I don't believe they specifically refereed to other characters as wise figuring as common a word is they probably did.
my point on that was it was a funny way to reply after saying snoke was just using Kylo because of his strength .
saying no he is wise is stupid Han should of said yeah wise enough to trick you dumb dumb that's my point now get in the falcon and stop messing about !

That'd is why I again see it as a little clue because it is kind of out of place in the context it is used.

 

[oota goota]

WE may not know whom he is clearly until Ep. 8..

Well I hope it's drawn out till Ep 9. Remember when you finally got to see who this Jabba the Hutt guy was in Ep 6? And we got to see the emperor in the slightly necrotic flesh? Forget the special editions that was a nice bit of cinema. I hope they hold Snook back till the last. Maybe give him a name change on the way?

 

[glunark]

Well that's the fault of the movie goer for not paying attention as far as I'm concerned. The point is he was mentioned. The Theron Nett analogy doesn't apply at all. That would be like thinking people must've been baffled when Jabba the Hutt appeared in ROTJ because he was only briefly mentioned twice (thrice?) before. Jabba was just a distant throwaway antagonist to Han until we finally meet him in the last movie (disregarding the SE). Again, I don't actually think they are planning for Snoke to be Plagueis but I certainly don't think it'd be an illogical, bad idea if he were.

It really isn't. I am a pretty big star wars fan, saw the original aged 7, read the comics, the books, watched the films countless times, even the bad ones, and I had no idea who Dark Palagius was.

You can't blame the audience for not remembering the name of a character we didn't even see.

Maybe I can no longer lay claim to worlds greatest star wars fan, but if you remember who this guy is without needing wookiepedia, you are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Wolfsburg]

I didn't even like the PT or follow it heavily but Plagueis was not something I had forgotten. It's one of the better scenes in the movie, imo. In fact, his ability to supposedly cheat death/create life and Palpatine's alleged knowledge of this power was one of the major points of the movie (in Anakin's quest to save Padme) so they really can't help if someone didn't pick up on an important conversation that was had and even if someone just completely doesn't remember, they'll be in for a treat when they discover he'd already been talked about before. I imagine if Snoke were to ever be revealed as Plagueis there would be some measure of exposition but not as much as would be needed if he were an all new character. I don't think he'd say 'Actually, I'm Plagueis' and leave it at that but the groundwork would already be there in some sense. We know he existed, we know he was Palpatine's master and we know he was greatly interested in life and death. Given that, it's not so implausible that it's taken him all this time since his murder to come back and clean up the mess his apprentice made or maybe going even further with it. No idea what his motivations are but there are plenty to go off of.

 

[joshvanrad]

I'm betting we will find out Snoke has been around since before the Sith came to be, and he's been pulling the strings from behind the curtain for a very very long time. He has a master plan that has involved all of the past bad guys but we have yet to see what the true endgame is.