STAR WARS Rebels new animated series!

[Mara Jade's Father]

It depends on your definition of Jedi. Yoda tells Luke he will not be a Jedi till he faces Vader. Basically Vader will be his trial and it will complete his training. So yoda may refer to Jedi as those members who gone though, completed, and excepted the level of Jedi Knight. Ahsoka left the order prior to being made a knight and Kanan was still a padawan.

Furthermore, Yoda's voice in the temple last season indicates that Kanan has not been sensed for long time. This was because kanan had not been on the path of the Jedi until recently. Also it would seem that the temple acted like conduit to increase these sensing abilities. Otherwise there would have been contact prior and after. Ahsoka may not be sensed by Yoda most likely because she is not on the path of the Jedi. Dave F. Already indicated that this is why her lightsaber blades are not one of the traditional Jedi colors.

A generic definition of Jedi used by others refer to anyone who is practicing or once had practiced the Jedi way regardless to whether they gained the level of Jedi knight.

 

[Bryancd]

It depends on your definition of Jedi. Yoda tells Luke he will not be a Jedi till he faces Vader. Basically Vader will be his trial and it will complete his training. So yoda may refer to Jedi as those members who gone though, completed, and excepted the level of Jedi Knight. Ahsoka left the order prior to being made a knight and Kanan was still a padawan.

Furthermore, Yoda's voice in the temple last season indicates that Kanan has not been sensed for long time. This was because kanan had not been on the path of the Jedi until recently. Also it would seem that the temple acted like conduit to increase these sensing abilities. Otherwise there would have been contact prior and after. Ahsoka may not be sensed by Yoda most likely because she is not on the path of the Jedi. Dave F. Already indicated that this is why her lightsaber blades are not one of the traditional Jedi colors.

A generic definition of Jedi used by others refer to anyone who is practicing or once had practiced the Jedi way regardless to whether they gained the level of Jedi knight.

Yeah, neither Kanan or Ahsoka really are Jedi.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

A bit baffled why there would be a more advanced AT-AT variant seen 5 years before ANH than what was in TESB. I would think the fleet assets of Vader himself would have the latest and greatest. Nothing about the "Rebels" AT-AT stands out as obviously more advanced (except maybe the guns having a greater degree of travel?) so I don't know why it couldn't have just been an earlier, older variant. I just assumed that's what it was.

Go back and watch the video again. The AT-AT in rebels is not a MKII. It is a developmental AT-AT. It is not advanced to the The Empire Strikes Back AT-ATs because it is a newer model. It is advanced based on technology. They used the Developmental model to determine what they would utilize in the The Empire Strikes Back AT-ATs.

Not stange in the Star Wars universe. The Inquisitor and Vader both had TIEs that were advanced to the TIEs we see used in the OT but yet we never see them. Why? Why else...? Money. Sure the Emperor has control of the banks but the does not mean funding is unlimited. After all, those Death Stars don't come cheap. Even if the Emperor got a deal of BOGO 50% off, that is still a lot of credits. Most likely the final designs of standard equipment is based on what is needed at a minimum and not on what is possible. After all, the only real threats until recently were small planetary uprisings mostly amounting having minimal effects on imperial operations. Even during the OT, the Emperor seems to not really consider the rebels as a challenging force, more like a nuisance. He is more concerned with the threat of Luke and what he could do. I would also go on to say that the Empire only other need is that of intimidation. How tall does an AT-AT need to be to be successful weapon and be intimidating? Seems like the AT-ATs in The Empire Strikes Back fit the bill. Let us also consider that there may have been operational advantages to smaller AT-ATs such as the ability to transport more at one time. maybe even speed and manuverability issues. Look at all the money saved by the empire by not spending credits on TIE hyperdrive engines and railings.

If you need a real world example consider how US astronauts are now getting to the International Space Station. They are hitching rides on Russian spacecraft. However they used to take their own Space Shuttle. Does that mean the Russian craft are better? No. It simply a budget and funding issue.

 

[Wolfsburg]

Well I don't accept that Yoda lied to Luke. If we really want to split hairs, I guess I could accept the notion that Ahsoka and Kanan are not technically fully trained Jedi but that's muddying waters that should've best just been left alone. Too late now though. It sounds like Rogue One is handling this period like I think Rebels should have. No Jedi or "Jedi-lites". Just a focus on regular Joe Blow freedom fighters trying to get by without any Jedi subplots.

I guess I misunderstood what they were saying about the AT-ATs then. The episode itself certainly didn't make it clear.

 

[gizmo]

So basically there could still be many force sensitive beings and potential Jedi's in the OT and ST and both Kanan and Ashoka could still be alive unless they complete thier training.


Ben

 

[gizmo]

Well I don't accept that Yoda lied to Luke. If we really want to split hairs, I guess I could accept the notion that Ahsoka and Kanan are not technically fully trained Jedi but that's muddying waters that should've best just been left alone. Too late now though. It sounds like Rogue One is handling this period like I think Rebels should have. No Jedi or "Jedi-lites". Just a focus on regular Joe Blow freedom fighters trying to get by without any Jedi subplots.

I guess I misunderstood what they were saying about the AT-ATs then. The episode itself certainly didn't make it clear.

Well not technically lied but both Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't tell Luke the full truth and mislead him. The reason being that they were scared Luke wouldn't face Vader if he knew. As for Lying about other Jedi I'm not sure. I figured they both twisted the truth thus far so to say Luke was the last wouldn't be a stretch.


Ben

 

[Wolfsburg]

Well Obi-wan twisted the truth but there's been nothing about Yoda that indicates he would do that. I just don't think it's in his character. Telling Luke that after his own death, "the last of the Jedi will he be" is a pretty clear statement that doesn't leave much room for interpretation. I can more easily accept it if Kanan and Ahsoka aren't being counted because they weren't fully trained. However, that's really splitting hairs and for all intents and purposes, they are Jedi in some form or fashion. They seem to be just as capable as Luke, which is an issue for me. Who cares about Luke if we have those two around? The real answer is Filoni couldn't resist including Jedi in an era that had already been established as having none (well 2 I guess) and now we're having to bend and contort the canon in unnecessary ways to make them fit. I totally accept that there are likely plenty of people like Ezra that have nascent Force abilities but either don't know what it is or maybe don't want to and it should've been left at that.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

So basically there could still be many force sensitive beings and potential Jedi's in the OT and ST and both Kanan and Ashoka could still be alive unless they complete thier training.

That's my take on it at least.

In Spark, (the version where they added the Vader scene) they seem to now include the seeking out of potential Jedi (children of Jedi) who might be a threat. The inquisitors are force sensitive so the Empire are utilizing those who may help them in their mission of ridding the universe of Jedi. Their are always going to be force sensitive beings being born even if you had the ability to kill all jedi and force sensitive beings at one point in time. It would be like killing all left handed people or red haired people. Eventually there will be some kids born that have those traits.

Even with the Inquisitors, it would be impossible to find all force potential individuals. For the most part they would have to rely on reports of an individual who displays those abilities and then go and seek them out. Besides, it is not the existence of force sensitive people existing that is a threat, it is those who are starting to tap into those abilities and utilize them that would be the real issue. Sort of like a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy except more like "Don't force use, Don't get purged."

 

[Wolfsburg]

Yeah I don't have an issue with that and it seems natural that there would be plenty of people that have untapped Force abilities and perhaps don't even know what it is. It might seem like "magic" or just good luck to them and their peers. Those that do know might want to keep it a secret.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Telling Luke that after his own death, "the last of the Jedi will he be" is a pretty clear statement that doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

Actually is does. Jedi can be singular or plural. Let me demonstrate with replacing Jedi with another word that does have a different word (addition of an "s") for it's plural... like "cucumber".

"When I die, the last of the cucumber will you be."

or

"When I die, the last of the cucumbers will you be."

So you can argue that Yoda statement did not restrict him to a single person remaining but as the survivor of a small group.

Now the next response to this would usually be "What about Luke being the last hope and their is another remark?" That can be explained with the belief that Obi and Yoda feel that only a child of Anakin could defeat Vader and the Emperor.

 

[gizmo]

Well Obi-wan twisted the truth but there's been nothing about Yoda that indicates he would do that. I just don't think it's in his character. Telling Luke that after his own death, "the last of the Jedi will he be" is a pretty clear statement that doesn't leave much room for interpretation. I can more easily accept it if Kanan and Ahsoka aren't being counted because they weren't fully trained. However, that's really splitting hairs and for all intents and purposes, they are Jedi in some form or fashion. They seem to be just as capable as Luke, which is an issue for me. Who cares about Luke if we have those two around? The real answer is Filoni couldn't resist including Jedi in an era that had already been established as having none and now we're having to bend and contort the canon in unnecessary ways to make them fit. I totally accept that there are likely plenty of people like Ezra that have nascent Force abilities but either don't know what it is or maybe don't want to and it should've been left at that.

I see your point. To me though Yoda told Luke everything about Vader except the fact that he's his father. To me that's scheming to suit his own agenda. Not and outright lie as such but still.


Ben

- - - Updated - - -

Actually is does. Jedi can be singular or plural. Let me demonstrate with replacing Jedi with another word that does have a different word (addition of an "s") for it's plural... like "cucumber".

"When I die, the last of the cucumber will you be."

or

"When I die, the last of the cucumbers will you be."

So you can argue that Yoda statement did not restrict him to a single person remaining but as the survivor of a small group.

Now the next response to this would usually be "What about Luke being the last hope and their is another remark?" That can be explained with the belief that Obi and Yoda feel that only a child of Anakin could defeat Vader and the Emperor.

Makes sense but still making Luke believe one thing when he's meaning another.


Ben

 

[astroboy]

Yeah, Luke was being manipulated by Yoda for the greater good.

As far as being the last of the jedi, Both Yoda and Obiwan assumed the worst and then went into exile. Unless they can sense force users across the galaxy, then they really wouldn't know if there are any stragglers.


The real question is....why didn't anyone think to train Leia? Hell...she was IN the rebellion

 

[Halliwax]

Yeah, Luke was being manipulated by Yoda for the greater good.

As far as being the last of the jedi, Both Yoda and Obiwan assumed the worst and then went into exile. Unless they can sense force users across the galaxy, then they really wouldn't know if there are any stragglers.


The real question is....why didn't anyone think to train Leia? Hell...she was IN the rebellion

very true i never really thought of that, maybe we will see her use the force in TFA?

 

[seelsa73]

This is the problem with fans who are evangelical about the OT: refusal to accept anything that could alter their original perception of the story, regardless of how negligible the impact to the story. Using the current discussion as an example, Luke's journey after that scene when Yoda dies will always be what it was. He still regroups with the rebellion, he still goes on the mission to infiltrate Endor, he still turns himself in to Vader, he still confronts the emperor, he still defeats Vader and he still makes it out alive. Making Yoda's "last of the Jedi" line a lie, or a "certain point of view" truth (or however they want to do it), and having other Jedi in the galaxy does not in any way fundamentally alter Yoda's character or the story told in the OT.

Let's open our minds to possibilities and not be so rigid in our ideas about the OT

 

[jhazard]

My take on Yoda's "last jedi" comment is meaning that Luke is the last of the known tradition of Jedi. Yoda also instructs him to pass on what he's learned, meaning to train others to be Jedi, no?

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[Wolfsburg]

Yes, I don't like it when people try to alter existing established canon to fit some other cockamamie scenario. A lot of it can be subjective so one can try and twist it all they want but as far as I'm concerned, the original intent is clear. I've never understood the desire to try to warp and contort existing canon and usually for no good reason at all. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be or find some weird alternative meaning to something that is patently clear, especially when there's no need for it. Luke was the last of the Jedi. There's no secret backstory where a dying Yoda decided to continue his wily, duplicitous ways by lying to poor Luke the sap with his last breath. Luke was the last. That's it. "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." That's it. Otherwise, Yoda would not have used himself as a qualifier. After I die YOU are the LAST. If there were others, it wouldn't have mattered if Yoda died or not. Luke would've been among the last of this imagined "small group" regardless of whether Yoda died or not. Yoda has already been demonstrated to be able to sense others from across the galaxy so he seems to be in a very good position to know whether Luke was or not.

 

[seelsa73]

Yes, I don't like it when people try to alter existing established canon to fit some other cockamamie scenario. A lot of it can be subjective so one can try and twist it all they want but as far as I'm concerned, the original intent is clear. I've never understood the desire to try to warp and contort existing canon and usually for no good reason at all. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be or find some weird alternative meaning to something that is patently clear, especially when there's no need for it. Luke was the last of the Jedi. There's no secret backstory where a dying Yoda decided to continue his wily, duplicitous ways by lying to poor Luke the sap with his last breath. Luke was the last. That's it. "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." That's it. Otherwise, Yoda would not have used himself as a qualifier. After I die YOU are the LAST. If there were others, it wouldn't have mattered if Yoda died or not. Luke would've been among the last of this imagined "small group" regardless of whether Yoda died or not.

This just demonstrates my point.

Yoda has already been demonstrated to be able to sense others from across the galaxy so he seems to be in a very good position to know whether Luke was or not.

So far, only once, and that was at a Jedi temple steeped in the light side of the Force.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

So far, only once, and that was at a Jedi temple steeped in the light side of the Force.

Exactly.

 

[Bryancd]

Yes, I don't like it when people try to alter existing established canon to fit some other cockamamie scenario. A lot of it can be subjective so one can try and twist it all they want but as far as I'm concerned, the original intent is clear. I've never understood the desire to try to warp and contort existing canon and usually for no good reason at all. There's no need to make things more complicated than they need to be or find some weird alternative meaning to something that is patently clear, especially when there's no need for it. Luke was the last of the Jedi. There's no secret backstory where a dying Yoda decided to continue his wily, duplicitous ways by lying to poor Luke the sap with his last breath. Luke was the last. That's it. "Luke, when gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be." That's it. Otherwise, Yoda would not have used himself as a qualifier. After I die YOU are the LAST. If there were others, it wouldn't have mattered if Yoda died or not. Luke would've been among the last of this imagined "small group" regardless of whether Yoda died or not. Yoda has already been demonstrated to be able to sense others from across the galaxy so he seems to be in a very good position to know whether Luke was or not.

What the intent was in 1983 has to accommodate what is best for carrying forward the franchise in 2015. You can't be so pedantic in your story that it can't allow for new stories which may be somewhat different from what GL wrote so long ago. And to be STAR WARS and attract an audience, it needs lightsabers and the Force, therefore Rebel's needed Kanan and Ezra to ever appeal to kids.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

This is the problem with fans who are evangelical about the OT: refusal to accept anything that could alter their original perception of the story, regardless of how negligible the impact to the story. Using the current discussion as an example, Luke's journey after that scene when Yoda dies will always be what it was. He still regroups with the rebellion, he still goes on the mission to infiltrate Endor, he still turns himself in to Vader, he still confronts the emperor, he still defeats Vader and he still makes it out alive. Making Yoda's "last of the Jedi" line a lie, or a "certain point of view" truth (or however they want to do it), and having other Jedi in the galaxy does not in any way fundamentally alter Yoda's character or the story told in the OT.

Let's open our minds to possibilities and not be so rigid in our ideas about the OT

Right. It is very easy to make an assumption and not know that you are doing it. That's ok. But what is not okay is to have new canon information introduced and get pissed off because what you thought happened was proved incorrect. Example: I think there were a lot of people who assumed that Ahsoka would be killed off in TCW series solely because she was not present in Revenge of the Sith. They did not consider other alternatives for why she might be absent. You can find a lot of examples at the start of this thread as new information was introduced about the Rebels series.