STAR WARS Rebels new animated series!

[Jeyl]

Well I am a fan and I just told you Yoda has his flaws. Awesome is an opinion. Yes, he is a strong, powerful, and often wise jedi. I could call him awesome. That doesn't mean he is prone to mistakes. Jackie Robinson is one of the greatest baseball players of all time although from time to time he struck, grounded, and flew out.

It would have been nice if the films themselves depicted Yoda as such, but they don't. No one ever says he made a mistake, nor does Yoda even acknowledge he made mistakes. He doesn't see Anakin's turning to the dark side as a moment where he could have done better. He sees Anakin as someone who is already dead and whoever has taken his place needs to die as well. He never factors himself in any way when it comes to Anakin's fall, or the Empire's rise.

Forgive this long winded example, but Yoda's treatment in Star Wars is like the Baku ploy in Star Trek Insurrection. The Federation is in a war with the Dominion that is costing them millions of lives. The Baku live on a planet that contains a resource that can expand medical science by decades and double normal life spans. Since the Federation has always wanted to express their mission of peace in the galaxy, wouldn't an advancement in medical science that can prolong life be a non-violent way to end a war? What do the Dominion have to offer? Dictatorship. Federation? Allow you to continue your way of life in a healthier fashion. War over. But the thing is, if the Baku were made aware of the Federation's predicament, one of two things would have to happen.

1. The Baku would see that leaving their home is a small price to pay if it would help the galaxy end a devastating war against a foe that would no doubt do worse to them than whatever the Federation had planned for them. Conclusion? No movie.
2. The Baku decide that what's theirs is theirs and will not inconvenience themselves to help a war torn galaxy. Conclusion? Our heroes are willing to prolong a war that's already costing millions of lives by saving 600 selfish a-holes from being 'inconvenienced'.

So, like Yoda, the stories work around the conflict so that the characters can remain oblivious to the bigger issue and not seem at fault when they take no part in it. Think about it. Is there really any reason why Yoda shouldn't be helping the Rebel Alliance fight the Empire? It's not like Vader's 'force sense' ability came in handy when he passed over Tatooine and failed to detect both Obi-Wan and Luke (OR LEIA WHO WAS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM). Even if they were after Yoda, what difference would that make for the Rebel Alliance? The Empire has already demonstrated that they're willing to commit planet wide genocide TWICE just to get one single rebel base, so what possible danger would Yoda bring to the Alliance that's worse than that? Cripes, no one even saw or detected Yoda coming into the Arena in Attack of the Clones until he was literally right on top of everyone. Where was the force sensing there?

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Why is this forum posting doubles in the same post?

 

[NormanF]

I don't know if I posted this in this thread or another, but a lot of the confusion can probably be put down to lazy writers.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

It would have been nice if the films themselves depicted Yoda as such, but they don't. No one ever says he made a mistake, nor does Yoda even acknowledge he made mistakes. He doesn't see Anakin's turning to the dark side as a moment where he could have done better. He sees Anakin as someone who is already dead and whoever has taken his place needs to die as well. He never factors himself in any way when it comes to Anakin's fall, or the Empire's rise.

They have depicted it, that's why I am saying what I am saying and you are saying what you are saying and others here are saying similar things. It is in the movies and TV shows. Some aspects of Star Wars are very straight forward as easy as good and evil. But then there are aspects that are a bit more gray. The prequels are amazing in story. Yes, maybe they could have been better directed but story is solid but it is complicated. So much so that after watching the prequels, you can think about it for years asking yourself questions about who knew what, and when. Luckily the CW show helped flush It out. The problem fans have with the shows such as CW and Rebels is that in flushing out info, the new data conflicts with what they believed to be true. That belief was based on assumptions or old EU info. So now that preceived believe is shattered. Fans who do not have an open mind are the ones you hear the most grief from. The good thing is that over time, those people tend to quiet down and find new thing to complain about. I remember similar issues when the prequels first came out because the story of Anakiin and Obi was not what some fans had envisioned in their heads for the last 20 or so years.

My hope is to help my fellow Star Wars fans understand why or how certain things have or might play out in Rebels and why it does follow in with the rest of the story.

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I don't know if I posted this in this thread or another, but a lot of the confusion can probably be put down to lazy writers.

Nope. Lazy viewers.

 

[Jeyl]

Nope. Lazy viewers.

Alright Mara. What is the prophecy word for word?

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Alright Mara. What is the prophecy word for word?

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in SW canon that spells out the exact wording of the chosen one. In the movies, they simply make reference to it.

Non canon wording states...

The Path of the Jedi manual says:

In the time of greatest despair, a child shall be born who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force.

The origins of phrophcy is believed to come from the second draft of Star Wars:

"…And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the sons of Suns.

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Alright Mara. What is the prophecy word for word?

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in SW canon that spells out the exact wording of the chosen one. In the movies, they simply make reference to it.

Non canon wording states...

The Path of the Jedi manual says:

In the time of greatest despair, a child shall be born who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force.

The origins of phrophcy is believed to come from the second draft of Star Wars:

"…And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the sons of Suns.

 

[Jeyl]

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in SW canon that spells out the exact wording of the chosen one. In the movies, they simply make reference to it.

And you call viewers lazy. In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan states

Obi-Wan: With all due respect master, Is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.​

Mace Windu says it right there that the prophecy is meant to accomplish two things.

1. The Chosen One will Destroy the Sith.
2. The Chosen One will bring balance to the Force.

The two pretty much go together hand in hand, especially when you conclude that the prophecy ties in to Vader tossing that cane walker off a catwalk. Destroying the Sith brings balance. However, in Episode One, Qui-Gon brings two very important topics when he meets the Jedi Council.

Qui-Gon: My only conclusion was that it was a Sith Lord.
Ki-Adi: Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millennium.​

This is odd because the prophecy in Episode III said that the destruction of the Sith was part of the Chosen One's path, meaning that the Sith would have to exist. So if the Jedi still believe in this prophecy, why are they so dismissive about the concept of the Sith returning? And when Qui-Gon brings up Anakin, why do the Jedi not put the two together when that is exactly what the prophecy says?

Sith returning + boy who fits the Chosen One ≠ It's the prophecy in action

Their reactions are contradicting to what the Jedi believe the prophecy means in Episode III. Nobody associates the Sith with the prophecy until Episode III yet their connection was never established even when they were brought up in the same meeting. Having no canon source telling us what the prophecy says to begin with is lazy writing because you can have the prophecy mean ANYTHING as long as you keep it vague. And Lucas takes it a step further by not telling us what it actually says. It's easy to say it could have been misread, but if we as an audience don't know what was written, how can we know that is really the case?

The origins of phrophcy is believed to come from the second draft of Star Wars

And it worked incredibly well without it.

 

[chris1748]

By destroying all the jedi, wasn't Anakin bringing balance to the force?
Thousands of Jedi vs. 2 Sith. That is not balance. That is how I always read the prophecy. The prophecy didn't say that bringing
balance to the force was going to be a good thing.
Chris

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

And you call viewers lazy. In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan states

Obi-Wan: With all due respect master, Is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.​

Mace Windu says it right there that the prophecy is meant to accomplish two things.

1. The Chosen One will Destroy the Sith.
2. The Chosen One will bring balance to the Force.

The two pretty much go together hand in hand, especially when you conclude that the prophecy ties in to Vader tossing that cane walker off a catwalk. Destroying the Sith brings balance. However, in Episode One, Qui-Gon brings two very important topics when he meets the Jedi Council.

Qui-Gon: My only conclusion was that it was a Sith Lord.
Ki-Adi: Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millennium.​

This is odd because the prophecy in Episode III said that the destruction of the Sith was part of the Chosen One's path, meaning that the Sith would have to exist. So if the Jedi still believe in this prophecy, why are they so dismissive about the concept of the Sith returning? And when Qui-Gon brings up Anakin, why do the Jedi not put the two together when that is exactly what the prophecy says?

Sith returning + boy who fits the Chosen One ≠ It's the prophecy in action

Their reactions are contradicting to what the Jedi believe the prophecy means in Episode III. Nobody associates the Sith with the prophecy until Episode III yet their connection was never established even when they were brought up in the same meeting. Having no canon source telling us what the prophecy says to begin with is lazy writing because you can have the prophecy mean ANYTHING as long as you keep it vague. And Lucas takes it a step further by not telling us what it actually says. It's easy to say it could have been misread, but if we as an audience don't know what was written, how can we know that is really the case?



And it worked incredibly well without it.

Not all viewers are lazy, just viewers like you. Once again you took a small part and skewed it instead of understanding the big picture. Obi wasn't quoting the prophecy, he was repeating the popular interpretation of the prophecy.

 

[seelsa73]

I find it incredibly funny and frustrating when people say they need to be more specific about everything and then turn around and complain that the plot is too complicated, or that this character or that works better when they leave their stories vague.

 

[Bryancd]

By destroying all the jedi, wasn't Anakin bringing balance to the force?
Thousands of Jedi vs. 2 Sith. That is not balance. That is how I always read the prophecy. The prophecy didn't say that bringing
balance to the force was going to be a good thing.
Chris

I have always felt this to be the case.

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By destroying all the jedi, wasn't Anakin bringing balance to the force?
Thousands of Jedi vs. 2 Sith. That is not balance. That is how I always read the prophecy. The prophecy didn't say that bringing
balance to the force was going to be a good thing.
Chris

I have always felt this to be the case.

 

[Jeyl]

Not all viewers are lazy, just viewers like you.

Maybe I just think the whole prophecy stuff was added so that Lucas could solidify Star Wars being more about Anakin and less about Luke. Since Anakin is in every movie and the prophecy is all a build up to the big toss at the end, Luke is now pretty much just a plot device. We're no longer watching the conflict of the galaxy unfold through his perspective or seeing him learn how completely screwed up the ways of the Force are. We know everything by the time we get to his character where everything turns into a waiting game for him to get Anakin to turn good so that the prophecy can be fulfilled.

And it's not even a well told prophecy either. The force being out of balance is an issue that is never understood and is marred with problematic development. If the Force is out of balance, what have the Jedi lost? If the Force comes back into balance, what do the Jedi gain? Why do the Jedi choose to teach other Jedi about this prophecy when there are elements to it*like the Sith that the Jedi believe are no longer a factor? Why do the Jedi, the guardians of peace and justice believe in something that involves killing a group of people? I don't believe these are unreasonable questions because the whole prophecy schtick is now the whole entire point why the Star Wars stories exists now. So don't call me a lazy viewer for calling this storytelling gimmick out for being poorly tacked on and executed.

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Dang, is RPF bugged all of a sudden?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

George's contention -- what he had in mind whilst writing the Prequels and the Father/Son/Daughter arc of Clone Wars -- was that the Light Side is the true aspect of the Force, and the Dark Side just a shadowy corruption of what the Force is. No Daoist dualism. For the Force to be brought back in "balance", those who promulgate and draw on the Dark Side need to cease to exist. Even though he's gone, I doubt the Story Group are going to throw that out.

I'll agree with what was said earlier, though -- if, in Episode I, Anakin was purported to be the Chosen One, and the Chosen One was supposed to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Dark Side/Sith, then the Sith couldn't have been wiped out a millennium ago, as Ki-Adi Mundi said. I'm siding with the "weak writing" argument, for this and many other reasons through the Prequels. Prophecy is always a weak mechanic, and I have rarely seen it pulled off well.

There's a part of me that wants to see a scene between Yoda and Obi-Wan, sometime after ROTS, where Yoda mumblingly sells Ben, "Um... Embarrassed I am to say this. About the Prophecy of the Chosen One... Made that up four hundred years ago I did... A joke it was. Expect it to be taken seriously I did not..."

--Jonah

 

[Bryancd]

George's contention -- what he had in mind whilst writing the Prequels and the Father/Son/Daughter arc of Clone Wars -- was that the Light Side is the true aspect of the Force, and the Dark Side just a shadowy corruption of what the Force is. No Daoist dualism. For the Force to be brought back in "balance", those who promulgate and draw on the Dark Side need to cease to exist. Even though he's gone, I doubt the Story Group are going to throw that out.

--Jonah

Yeah, no doubt this will prevail going forward. I also think George in the final CW Yoda arc backed away from the midiclorine concept and left room for a reinterpretation of how the Force functions through individuals.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

George's contention -- what he had in mind whilst writing the Prequels and the Father/Son/Daughter arc of Clone Wars -- was that the Light Side is the true aspect of the Force, and the Dark Side just a shadowy corruption of what the Force is. No Daoist dualism. For the Force to be brought back in "balance", those who promulgate and draw on the Dark Side need to cease to exist. Even though he's gone, I doubt the Story Group are going to throw that out.

In an interview (The Mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas and Bill Moyers), GL compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.

In the commentary for Star Wars: The Clone Wars: The Complete Season Three, GL indicated that the concept of bringing balance to the Force involved keeping the selfless (which he referred to as the light side) and the selfish (referred to by him as the dark side) in check.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

The two pretty much go together hand in hand, especially when you conclude that the prophecy ties in to Vader tossing that cane walker off a catwalk. Destroying the Sith brings balance. However, in Episode One, Qui-Gon brings two very important topics when he meets the Jedi Council.

Qui-Gon: My only conclusion was that it was a Sith Lord.
Ki-Adi: Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millennium.​

This is odd because the prophecy in Episode III said that the destruction of the Sith was part of the Chosen One's path, meaning that the Sith would have to exist. So if the Jedi still believe in this prophecy, why are they so dismissive about the concept of the Sith returning? And when Qui-Gon brings up Anakin, why do the Jedi not put the two together when that is exactly what the prophecy says?

Sith returning + boy who fits the Chosen One ≠ It's the prophecy in action

Their reactions are contradicting to what the Jedi believe the prophecy means in Episode III. Nobody associates the Sith with the prophecy until Episode III yet their connection was never established even when they were brought up in the same meeting. Having no canon source telling us what the prophecy says to begin with is lazy writing because you can have the prophecy mean ANYTHING as long as you keep it vague. And Lucas takes it a step further by not telling us what it actually says. It's easy to say it could have been misread, but if we as an audience don't know what was written, how can we know that is really the case?

It's been awhile since I've seen TPM, but I think you're taking things out of order. Qui Gon and Obi Wan go before the Council first to tell them about their encounter with Darth Maul. Later on they bring Anakin before the Council and that's when they discuss the prophecy. Either that or it's right after the Maul discussion. The Prophecy still existed even if the Jedi believed the Sith to be extinct. It could have been a thousand years old prophecy for all we know.

It's also not hard to figure out the prophecy. The Force will create a being who will end up being the Chosen One, who will destroy the Sith. They give you the parts of it in the story.

 

[Jeyl]

It's been awhile since I've seen TPM, but I think you're taking things out of order.

Nope. It's brought up in the same first meeting. And if the prophecy was a thousand years old and the Sith were extinct, why does bringing the Force back into balance still an issue?

It's also not hard to figure out the prophecy. The Force will create a being who will end up being the Chosen One, who will destroy the Sith. They give you the parts of it in the story.

Again, how can the Jedi continue to believe the Force is not balanced if they believe the Sith are extinct? Why is balance so important? Why do the Jedi, who have a mandate to settle things peacefully and only use their abilities for defense have a prophecy where they destroy something? It's hard to validate your cause is for peace and justice when you're hoping for destruction. The prophecy went out of character for the moment they added the Sith bit in Revenge of the Sith. Until that point when Obi-Wan mentioned it, the Sith were never a part of the prophecy. If it was, the meeting between Qui-Gon and the Council would been much different.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Nope. It's brought up in the same first meeting. And if the prophecy was a thousand years old and the Sith were extinct, why does bringing the Force back into balance still an issue?


Again, how can the Jedi continue to believe the Force is not balanced if they believe the Sith are extinct? Why is balance so important? Why do the Jedi, who have a mandate to settle things peacefully and only use their abilities for defense have a prophecy where they destroy something? It's hard to validate your cause is for peace and justice when you're hoping for destruction. The prophecy went out of character for the moment they added the Sith bit in Revenge of the Sith. Until that point when Obi-Wan mentioned it, the Sith were never a part of the prophecy. If it was, the meeting between Qui-Gon and the Council would been much different.

All your questions about why balance is important have been already answered in previous post from the last few days. Stop being lazy and enlighten yourself.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Nope. It's brought up in the same first meeting. And if the prophecy was a thousand years old and the Sith were extinct, why does bringing the Force back into balance still an issue?

It's an issue because a kid, created by the Force, with an unbelievably high midi-whatever count was found, and the Sith returned. George Lucas, creator of Star Wars, said that the prophecy, a JEDI PROPHECY, says that when the Sith are present and the Dark Side has influence in the galaxy, the Force is out of balance. Absence of the Dark Side puts the Force in balance. So when Vader chucks the Emperor down the shaft in ROTJ, the Force is back in balance. I keep explaining it and no on ever listens. This doesn't mean everyone believes that, but the Jedi do.

Again, how can the Jedi continue to believe the Force is not balanced if they believe the Sith are extinct? Why is balance so important? Why do the Jedi, who have a mandate to settle things peacefully and only use their abilities for defense have a prophecy where they destroy something? It's hard to validate your cause is for peace and justice when you're hoping for destruction. The prophecy went out of character for the moment they added the Sith bit in Revenge of the Sith. Until that point when Obi-Wan mentioned it, the Sith were never a part of the prophecy. If it was, the meeting between Qui-Gon and the Council would been much different.

That's like saying the U.S. is a peaceful country so why do we have a military going out and destroying the bad guys? You can be peaceful, but you don't let people kill other innocent people and not intervene. They have a lightsaber for a reason.

 

[Jeyl]

George Lucas, creator of Star Wars,

I'm going to stop you right there. Using George Lucas as a valid source is a losing battle since what he usually says are things he never stands by. Biggest example? His own work! THX-1138, American Graffiti, Star Wars, all went through some post-release modifications per his instructions. The original trilogy of Star Wars have had drastic changes in almost every home video format they've been released on. He even has his own studio lie to the fans about the condition of the original versions of the film, going so far as to say they no longer exist. And if you listen to his prequel commentaries, he makes these set ups about how the next movie is going to explore new areas*that the current movie brought up. Episode II will delve into the prophecy (It only got one mention) and Episode III will uncover who was behind the deletion of Kamino and Sifo Dias (Never brought up).

Now I'm not trying to say that a person can't change their mind about something, but in the case of George Lucas, it's obvious even he doesn't know what he wants even when he tries.

 

[Halliwax]

My hope is to help my fellow Star Wars fans understand why or how certain things have or might play out in Rebels and why it does follow in with the rest of the story.

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you sure are helping me, i love this thread! full of allot of great info