STAR WARS Rebels new animated series!

[Solo4114]

I agree that Vader's previous injuries and added technology is not a proven liability. My point was if you are going to be looking for a liability, age would be at the top of my list. He'd probably be in what... his late thirties, early forties in Rebels then by the end of the OT? I mean he is not an old man but I think he is outside of his prime. Which would also support the idea that the Emperor would not hesitate to replace him with Luke once turned due to Vader's best days now behind him.

But the films also show that age is irrelevant. Yoda at age, what, 870(?) is able to flip around the room like a lunatic, and can life starships through his use of the Force. Ditto Palpatine who is, at least, in his 60s in the PT. And Dooku is in his 80s or so. Age isn't really a factor, I don't think. Mechanical skill isn't really a factor either, I don't think. I can see, rather, where fighting style is an issue, though, and it MIGHT be the one thing that would explain the Vader/Obi-Wan fight.

By this I mean that their earlier more flashy fighting styles were designed primarily to combat different techniques, and that one-on-one duels changed. In the Vader/Obi-Wan duel, it is entirely about an economy of motion and balance. Not overextending and leaving yourself open to a counterstrike. That sort of thing. It's more tactical and deliberate. And I'd bet that Obi-Wan sets the terms of that duel. Maybe Vader figured "If he's using that style, I have to match it, rather than use a more flamboyant style." The reason being that a flamboyant style will leave Vader wide open. Kinda like the old "Why didn't Vader just stick him in the back?" question about the Luke/Vader ESB fight when Luke does that goofy, flashy spin move. In that fight, the answer is "Because he doesn't actually want to kill him," but it's the kind of thing where if Vader's doing that sort of move, Obi-Wan will just poke him in the back and zip away on the Falcon.

I don't think that age factored into the Emperor's thinking as far as Luke vs. Vader was concerned, it seems to me that he was simply following the Sith philosophy of survival of the fittest. I don't think that he cared that much who won or lost, or more to say, whether Vader lost and Luke turned to the Dark Side, or Vader killed Luke, either way he would end up winning because he would end up getting the strongest fighter as his new right hand man.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I mean, the Emperor is betting Luke is exceptionally strong in the Force, but realistically, the Emperor just wants whoever is the strongest and doesn't care who wins.

I think we can also suggest his ability to command the Force is somewhat diminished by being less real living tissue. The Force is an energy field created by living being so it stands to reason that our living selves allows us to focus it's energies. Vader is maybe 50% human, so without his anger and rage he may not be a powerful in the Force as he was before the suit.

See, that theory makes more sense to me. It also explains Vader's approach to all three OT fights -- in that he might be emotionally conflicted in all 3 and less able to draw on his rage. Although, I suppose the Obi-Wan fight would still need explanation. Maybe his anger was less fresh, and tinged with "Whoa...you're still alive?! What are you, like, Yoda's age now, old man?!"

We know it's a liability because the Emperor tries to replace Vader with Luke. If Vader was so great and powerful, why would he even bother with Luke? It's because Vader is not how the Emperor saw his apprentice. He's flawed. Oh and Vader can't even use Force lightning with mechanical arms. That's like the Sith's trademark.

I don't think you can assume that. I think it's more that the Emperor's just always looking for more power. If Luke proves more powerful, he wants him. If Luke proves not quite powerful enough, he wants him dead. Any outcome (other than being thrown down a bottomless pit) is a win for the Emperor in a Vader vs. Luke contest.

i know im late, but ive always hated how lucas said obiwan and vader are old wash ups, thats why they lightsaber fighting wasnt that great. dooku was old and he could hang with obiwan and anikan when they were in their "prime" idk... never liked how he said that about vader being handicap and obiwan being old.. hell i think old obiwan was younger then dooku before dooku died..

It's rubbish, anyway. Realistically, the ANH fight is probably the most dangerous of the series, because it's the most about practical swordsmanship and the least about flashy acrobatics. It doesn't look as cool, but that misses the point.

There's a Japanese movie that came out about a year after Star Wars, called Yagyū Ichizoku no Inbō (released in the U.S. on DVD as "Shogun's Samurai"). It features a duel between these two master swordsmen towards the end of it, and the fight is mostly just them circling each other, positioning themselves to find an opening, followed by a SINGLE strike and one of them falls. Visually, it's not what modern audiences would consider impressive, but the point of it is that these guys get literally one shot at each other, because each is SUCH a master that there will be no second strike. One will fall, one will live, and it's all down to a single move. It's a terrific, tense scene, and given that Lucas was influenced by jidaigeki films, it makes more sense that, visually, the fight in the first film is far more contained.

Ah, found it. Skip to about 1:56:00 here and you'll see what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gjd5op8LWo

The (subtitled, if you don't speak Japanese) version is well worth it, in my opinion. But I digress.


Basically, I still think it's an open question as to just how badass Vader really is, both in the OT and in the Rebels era. I can see where one might argue any number of factors that'd affect his performance down the line, but I think there's no reason why he can't be depicted as a badass.

 

[drcraig13]

We know it's a liability because the Emperor tries to replace Vader with Luke. If Vader was so great and powerful, why would he even bother with Luke? It's because Vader is not how the Emperor saw his apprentice. He's flawed. Oh and Vader can't even use Force lightning with mechanical arms. That's like the Sith's trademark.

Sorry I will have to disagree with that. Just because we never saw him do it doesn't mean he can't. Also in ESB when look is training with Yoda, Yoda tells him the force flows through everything, the rocks, the ship ect.

 

[astroboy]

I'd like to take this moment to reflect on how truly badass the duel between Obi Wan and Anakin was in ROTS

 

[Kylash]

i know im late, but ive always hated how lucas said obiwan and vader are old wash ups, thats why they lightsaber fighting wasnt that great. dooku was old and he could hang with obiwan and anikan when they were in their "prime" idk... never liked how he said that about vader being handicap and obiwan being old.. hell i think old obiwan was younger then dooku before dooku died..

Agreed. Sure doesnt look handicapped to me.

 

[Bryancd]

Considering you have an older actor wearing a long, heavy robe and another in a bulky suit wearing a mask with limited visibility, is this really so hard to understand? There is no real in universe explanation, there is simply a real world explanation.,

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

But the films also show that age is irrelevant. Yoda at age, what, 870(?) is able to flip around the room like a lunatic, and can life starships through his use of the Force. Ditto Palpatine who is, at least, in his 60s in the PT. And Dooku is in his 80s or so. Age isn't really a factor, I don't think. Mechanical skill isn't really a factor either, I don't think. I can see, rather, where fighting style is an issue, though, and it MIGHT be the one thing that would explain the Vader/Obi-Wan fight.

You're just kind of making my argument for me.

Yes, Yoda is twirling all over the place in Attack of the Clones but now consider how badass he was in his prime. Remember that Yoda (older) and Dooku (younger) fought to a stalemate. But once Anakin (younger) became a Jedi and was entering his prime, Anakin kicked Dooku's (older) ass. Now consider a Mace (younger) considered to Yoda (older). Mace may not have been in his prime but he was closer to it than Yoda. Mace (younger) in all respect beat the Emperor (older). Yoda (older) later faced the Emperor (younger). And even though the Emperor has just gone through a terrific attack earlier that day, he sent Yoda packing.

Not sure why people are thinking "not in their prime" and "washed up" to mean the same thing. when I say out of their prime, I do not mean they are not great warriors or should be underestimated.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, why is it that Anakin becomes a cyborg, he is handicapped but you guys go and watch Robocop and he is basically a superhero? :rolleyes

 

[Solo4114]

I don't know that Mace beat the emperor per se. It can be argued that the emperor waited for Anakin to save him and make him turn to the dark side, and could've taken Mace out at any time. But we'll never really know.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that age isn't the only distinguishing factor here. Strength in the Force is probably more important. And in the end, for all of their prowess at fighting, tons of Jedi in their prime still ended up getting taken out by Vader, clones, bounty hunters, inquisitors, etc.


All I'm really getting at is that I think it's really open territory for Rebels to do what they want with Vader and his combat abilities. I don't think there's any reason he has to be more or less powerful one way or the other. I don't think the films show any true consistency in terms of the characters' combat abilities, at least not by design. I think it's more a factor of "Sir Alec Guinness was old and not really into sword fighting for the film," and "Mark Hamill and other younger actors were willing to be a lot more dynamic in their movements." And the thing about Anakin's cyborg body being a liability, I don't know if it will be one way or the other, and the one scene that suggests it would be comes at the moment his cyborg body is first connected to him. But even that is more down to Lucas' whims in the moment, wanting him to look like Frankenstein's monster as he rises, rather than wanting that to also mean "Oh, and so, Vader was weaker as a fighter because he was a cyborg."

I can see an argument where the more machine you are, the less connected to the Force you are, but who knows. Again, I think the Rebels writers have a pretty open playing field here to do what they like, and I'm fine with that.

 

[cboath]

I think a part of it is execution of the director to be honest.

Dooku was old in AOTC and ROTS. Time difference there was what? 5 years? Don't think he'd have deteriorated much more over that timespan to be honest. Unless he was dying.

Anakin on the other hand had 5 more years of experience and 5 more years getting TO his prime working in his advantage there. I'm pretty sure that's what they were trying to convey there. His improvement and his darkside leaning with the end of the fight. Found it a load of BS though that Obi gets KO'd in both fights way to easily though.

Dooku/Yoda fought to a draw, though, without resorting to trying to crush the defeated obi/ani Yoda likely wins. I think GL failed to realize that by having Anakin kick dooku's but like that in ROTS he's essentially saying he'd take Yoda pretty easily as well. Yoda and the emperor then fight to a draw. If you write it up as a mathematical proof, Anakin is better than everyone because yoda fights the other 2 to draw, therefore you can draw the conclusion they're equal. If they're equal and Anakin school's one, he should therefore be able to take them all - individually of course.

So, either Anakin is better then all of them - handily - or dooku took a giant nosedive in ability between 2 and 3. No reference was made to that however. Better direction in AOTC solves that if Yoda is shown to be toying with dooku like the emporer most likely was with Mace.

If the emporer all of sudden had the ability to zap mace and throw him 200ft out a window - no way he gets beat down like a chump in the 2 minutes prior to that and only survives by using Anakin to distract him. It's a ploy to paint the jedi as evil and wanting to destroy the only way Anakin has to save his girlfriend. It serves it's point in getting him to the dark side for good, but the execution was not done very well.

 

[Bryancd]

I believe Dave Filloni ascribes to the idea that "he's more machine than man" dimishes Vader's connection to the Force but that is somewhat curtailed by his huge reservoir of hate.

 

[Solo4114]

I believe Dave Fillini ascribes to the idea that "he's more machine than man" dimishes Vader's connection to the Force but that is somewhat curtailed by his huge reservoir of hate.

Yep. That makes sense to me, if your principle for the Force is that it is, first and foremost, created by life itself. Machine un-life, therefore, would weaken Force ability, which in turn would create more of a draw towards using the "quick and easy" path of the Dark Side.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I don't know that Mace beat the emperor per se. It can be argued that the emperor waited for Anakin to save him and make him turn to the dark side, and could've taken Mace out at any time. But we'll never really know.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that age isn't the only distinguishing factor here. Strength in the Force is probably more important. And in the end, for all of their prowess at fighting, tons of Jedi in their prime still ended up getting taken out by Vader, clones, bounty hunters, inquisitors, etc.


All I'm really getting at is that I think it's really open territory for Rebels to do what they want with Vader and his combat abilities. I don't think there's any reason he has to be more or less powerful one way or the other. I don't think the films show any true consistency in terms of the characters' combat abilities, at least not by design. I think it's more a factor of "Sir Alec Guinness was old and not really into sword fighting for the film," and "Mark Hamill and other younger actors were willing to be a lot more dynamic in their movements." And the thing about Anakin's cyborg body being a liability, I don't know if it will be one way or the other, and the one scene that suggests it would be comes at the moment his cyborg body is first connected to him. But even that is more down to Lucas' whims in the moment, wanting him to look like Frankenstein's monster as he rises, rather than wanting that to also mean "Oh, and so, Vader was weaker as a fighter because he was a cyborg."

I can see an argument where the more machine you are, the less connected to the Force you are, but who knows. Again, I think the Rebels writers have a pretty open playing field here to do what they like, and I'm fine with that.

I think we are pretty much on the same page. My argument for age was more to detract from his suit or injuries being a factor for weakness. Like a said earlier, if I were to make a list of issues that would be a weakness to Vader, age would be the top of mine. But that doesn't make him weak or an easy target. Even if we were to agree that Vader was not in his prime, it still doesn't prove he is still not a match for all contenders.

I would also argue the possibility that his suit may be a benefit. He's constantly getting oxygen and most likely it adjusts to his activity. His mechanical parts do not feel pain or fatigue. He may also give him stronger and faster abilities or even hear and see better (The Sith Million Dollar Man.... see what i did there?).

But basically like you I feel it is all open to all possibilities.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Sorry I will have to disagree with that. Just because we never saw him do it doesn't mean he can't. Also in ESB when look is training with Yoda, Yoda tells him the force flows through everything, the rocks, the ship ect.

Lucas said that Vader can't use Force Lightning because it requires physical arms to use it. What the Force flows through is irrelevant if the actual power requires arms to shoot it. It requires a living conduit I guess. So unless everyone is just going to completely ignore the ground rules Lucas set up for this universe now that he's gone, then that's how Force Lightning works. Not to mention that he also said that Anakin cannot fill out his full potential as Vader because he has less physical body and that's why he tries to get Luke instead.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

New clip featuring space battle: http://video.disney.com/watch/disneyxd-star-wars-rebels-epic-battle-5183015257f1bc20a49cf123

 

[drcraig13]

@sluis I can't argue with what your saying except Lucas has a history of changing the "rules" based on what day of the week it is. One day he says this the next he says that. Agree to disagree I suppose.

 

[Solo4114]

Lucas said that Vader can't use Force Lightning because it requires physical arms to use it. What the Force flows through is irrelevant if the actual power requires arms to shoot it. It requires a living conduit I guess. So unless everyone is just going to completely ignore the ground rules Lucas set up for this universe now that he's gone, then that's how Force Lightning works. Not to mention that he also said that Anakin cannot fill out his full potential as Vader because he has less physical body and that's why he tries to get Luke instead.

As I've said before, while I expect the story group to give Lucas' statements some credence "Lucas said..." doesn't carry a lot of weight for me, given that he's contradicted himself on multiple occasions, and whatever thing he dreamed up in the moment shouldn't hamstring future stories if the non-Lucas idea actually works better for the story. I'm not saying it works to have Vader shoot lighting, necessarily, but rather that the mere fact that Lucas said "Oh, he can't because...uh....robot arms." Hell, he probably said it in response to some question posed by a fan, just to explain away why he didn't want Vader shooting lighting from his hands, when the truth is "I just...um...never really wanted him to? I wanted the Emperor to do that because he was really powerful. I dunno. It's just a movie. I don't have an answer for literally everything."

I'll put it this way. What Lucas said outside of the films I give about as much credence as I do green bipedal space rabbits and the endless supply of superweapon projects the Empire was working on according to the EU books. Put simply, if it ain't in the films or the Clone Wars cartoon, it ain't official. Yes, even if Lucas said it. Lucas' comments in interviews throughout the years have been all over the place, and I can't imagine the story group is going to allow itself to be hemmed in by some errant statement he made to a South Korean newspaper in 1994 or whathaveyou. It's nice to have George's ideas as touchstones for further development, and it helps to explain his general vision. But at the same time, the mere fact that he once said somethingorother about suchandsuch shouldn't leave the story group saying "Well, crap. I guess we can't do that, then. Too bad. It would've been really great..."

To be clear, I'm not saying it's a good idea to have Vader shoot lightning. I actually think it's kind of silly. I think you can also make a plausible argument that, hey, channeling a large electrical current through MECHANICAL LIMBS POWERED BY ELECTRICAL CURRENTS probably...isn't such a hot idea, and that you don't really need Lucas' statement to see the inherent logic in the idea. But you can also just say "Because the Emperor never taught him how," and it works just as well. Maybe better, even, because it could highlight tension between master and apprentice, etc. And, again, Lucas' statements should not be seen as binding on the franchise in such a way that keeps it from telling good stories. They be more like...guidelines.

 

[cboath]

Lucas said that Vader can't use Force Lightning because it requires physical arms to use it. What the Force flows through is irrelevant if the actual power requires arms to shoot it. It requires a living conduit I guess. So unless everyone is just going to completely ignore the ground rules Lucas set up for this universe now that he's gone, then that's how Force Lightning works. Not to mention that he also said that Anakin cannot fill out his full potential as Vader because he has less physical body and that's why he tries to get Luke instead.

I think you have to work a little reality in there. Force lighting may not require living arms, however, you shoot force lighting (or any lightning really) through mechanical arms that run off any sort of current and one jolt of lighting is likely to shut down the whole system. No arms, legs, breathing, etc...

 

[Solo4114]

This discussion has gotten me thinking about just how much of the stuff we take as "given" in the Star Wars universe comes from the films themselves, and how much comes from material outside the films. I honestly think that a LOT of my background knowledge of Star Wars comes from external stuff that just seeped into my understanding of the films, but which isn't actually depicted in the films themselves or directly addressed in them. While I think it's mostly safe to assume (until told otherwise) that general concepts are the same or similar, it really is a whole new world with the entirety of the EU no longer being really binding or needing to be worked around at all.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

While I agree that information from Lucas isn't canon, I do not think it can just be out right dismissed. Such information has the possibility and the plausibility to later be proved as canon. It would seem from past interviews that Dave F. has and has have a lot of conversations with Lucas about Star Wars universe details. While there is nothing that keeps the new LFL from doing a 180, I think there is still a respect for GL and his vision.

My personal belief about Vader and Sith lightning. As mentioned previously, I think his prosthetics hinders his ability to execute it properly. I don't see a reason why he could not utilize it from bare stumps if he chose to.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

This discussion has gotten me thinking about just how much of the stuff we take as "given" in the Star Wars universe comes from the films themselves, and how much comes from material outside the films. I honestly think that a LOT of my background knowledge of Star Wars comes from external stuff that just seeped into my understanding of the films, but which isn't actually depicted in the films themselves or directly addressed in them. While I think it's mostly safe to assume (until told otherwise) that general concepts are the same or similar, it really is a whole new world with the entirety of the EU no longer being really binding or needing to be worked around at all.

I agree. a big pet peeve of mine is people who refer to the X-Wings in Return of the Jedi and even A New Hope as Rogue Squadron. Rogue Squadron was invented by Timothy Zahn for use in his books and in the old EU canon did not exist until after the OT. It was an homage to Rogue Group as seen in The Empire Strikes Back. For all we know Rogue may just have been the call sign for the group at Hoth and they changed it at every base. Also, the group may have been of pilots from several different existing Squadrons based at Hoth. Also because the T-47 are not spacecraft but instead air speeders. You basically could argue airspeeds are like Star Wars Universe's version of automobiles (as seen in Attack of the Clones). So essentially it is like the T-47s are Humvees. So a group might be more like a calvary unit than a squadron.

 

[Bryancd]

It makes him more interesting as well, as sort of a partial failure of Palpatines plans. The Vader comics and Lords of the Sith book is doing a great job fleshing out their relationship and how they feel about each other. And no Vader Force lightning in either with plenty from the Emperor, so it it seems Vader doesn't have the ability, is considered flawed, and that is canon.