STAR WARS Rebels new animated series!

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Another tidbit to remember. Vader's forces in Empire -- a good dozen (or more) Star Destroyers and his command ship -- were called the Death Squadron. Squadron, for pity's sake. That's roughly how many ships we saw on the Imperial side at Endor. Heck, given the Executor was there, it may even have been the same fleet. Mon Mothma did say that the Imperial fleet was scattered in "a vain attempt to engage us".

Granted, George has apparently had issues visualizing the sheer numbers that would be required to fight galactic-scale wars or hold galaxy-spanning republics or empires...

Which reminds me... In the season two trailer, Rex refers to the "five hundred and first clone battalion". Um. Last I knew, it was the 501st Legion in ROTS. And as far as I know military protocols, a unit organized at a particular size retains that name even if the numbers grow or shrink. Still. A battalion is around 600 troopers, while a legion is close to ten thousand. That's a bit of a disparity, there. Think they're trying to shoehorn George's numbers into the number of units we saw? After all, we only had a couple hundred thousand clone troopers ready to go as of AOTC and ROTS. The rest were still maturing and being trained, up to the full order of (a measly) one million.

--Jonah

 

[Riceball]

Granted, George has apparently had issues visualizing the sheer numbers that would be required to fight galactic-scale wars or hold galaxy-spanning republics or empires...

Which reminds me... In the season two trailer, Rex refers to the "five hundred and first clone battalion". Um. Last I knew, it was the 501st Legion in ROTS. And as far as I know military protocols, a unit organized at a particular size retains that name even if the numbers grow or shrink. Still. A battalion is around 600 troopers, while a legion is close to ten thousand. That's a bit of a disparity, there. Think they're trying to shoehorn George's numbers into the number of units we saw? After all, we only had a couple hundred thousand clone troopers ready to go as of AOTC and ROTS. The rest were still maturing and being trained, up to the full order of (a measly) one million.

--Jonah

You are correct, a unit always maintains its unit size designation regardless of whether it's lost or gained personnel, a company is always a company, a battalion is always a battalion, and so on up, this is, of course, barring any major reorganizing of the military as a whole.

As far as the 501st goes, it's really the only unit we ever hear named (I think) and I believe that the Legion designation is not a canon name but something that the 501st club came up with themselves before it was canonized in the prequels. So by calling the 501st a battalion in the PT may be accurate, regardless of how many clones may have been in the 501st. Besides, we really don't what officially constitutes and Imperial battalion or a legion so the numbers can range from 200 to 20,000 or anywhere in between, not to mention that a legion is a unit size that's not in use with any modern military. During the Roman period a legion was around 5,000 men and during the Revolutionary War the US did, apparently, have a legion of 4 regiments making it a division in everything but name, however, I couldn't find anything on the exact size but it's safe to say that it was almost certainly smaller than a modern US division and probably closer to a modern regiment or brigade in size.

 

[MooCriket]

So any guesses on how they escape Vader? I'm betting that Ahsoka someone distracts Vader, and Kanan and Ezra are able to get away. He will likely pursue Ahsoka himself, and send the two new Inquisitors after Kanan/Ezra?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

It's kinda backy-forthy. 501st is a nice-sounding number, and they wanted a unit designation that didn't feel too Earthy, and luckily the Emperor had said he had an entire Legion of his best troops on Endor, so there ya go. George likes the organization, so they got incorporated into Episode III as the troops Anakin was leading into the Jedi temple. it's in the script, the production art, the instructions/info given to Hasbro for the action figures, etc. As far as Lucasfilm is concerned, those blue-trimmed Clonetroopers in ROTS are the 501st Legion.

And I go by what's seen in AOTC for unit breakdown. The mustering yards on Coruscant do a pretty good job. Each block of troops we see is twenty-four files across and twenty-six ranks deep, for 624, which is a decent size for a Battalion. We see one of those blocks forming up across the Company Street (the wider space along which vehicles and command groups are moving), from four smaller blocks. That's twelve files across by thirteen ranks deep, or 156 -- good Company size. Some math gives us a good breakdown of four Platoons of three Squads of 13 each (twelve troopers plus a Sergeant). Going the other way, the clearest larger formation we see is a group of fifteen of those Battalion-sized blocks, which is likely either five Regiments of three Battalions or three of five -- but equals 9,360 troops, which is a good Brigade size, and the real-world analogue of Star Wars' "Legion". We have Battalions and Regiments and Corps in ROTS, so those fit in the T.O., and legion slots nicely in the Brigade position between Regiment and Corps.

The problem comes when we do math. Regardless of attrition, if it was organized at optimal size, 501 Legions (minimum) gives us a low end of over 4.6 million troops in the GAR. Which I would still consider to be too low to fight a war on a galactic scale.

--Jonah

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

As far as the 501st goes, it's really the only unit we ever hear named (I think) and I believe that the Legion designation is not a canon name but something that the 501st club came up with themselves before it was canonized in the prequels. So by calling the 501st a battalion in the PT may be accurate, regardless of how many clones may have been in the 501st. Besides, we really don't what officially constitutes and Imperial battalion or a legion so the numbers can range from 200 to 20,000 or anywhere in between, not to mention that a legion is a unit size that's not in use with any modern military. During the Roman period a legion was around 5,000 men and during the Revolutionary War the US did, apparently, have a legion of 4 regiments making it a division in everything but name, however, I couldn't find anything on the exact size but it's safe to say that it was almost certainly smaller than a modern US division and probably closer to a modern regiment or brigade in size.

And I go by what's seen in AOTC for unit breakdown. The mustering yards on Coruscant do a pretty good job. Each block of troops we see is twenty-four files across and twenty-six ranks deep, for 624, which is a decent size for a Battalion. We see one of those blocks forming up across the Company Street (the wider space along which vehicles and command groups are moving), from four smaller blocks. That's twelve files across by thirteen ranks deep, or 156 -- good Company size. Some math gives us a good breakdown of four Platoons of three Squads of 13 each (twelve troopers plus a Sergeant). Going the other way, the clearest larger formation we see is a group of fifteen of those Battalion-sized blocks, which is likely either five Regiments of three Battalions or three of five -- but equals 9,360 troops, which is a good Brigade size, and the real-world analogue of Star Wars' "Legion". We have Battalions and Regiments and Corps in ROTS, so those fit in the T.O., and legion slots nicely in the Brigade position between Regiment and Corps.

The problem comes when we do math. Regardless of attrition, if it was organized at optimal size, 501 Legions (minimum) gives us a low end of over 4.6 million troops in the GAR. Which I would still consider to be too low to fight a war on a galactic scale.

--Jonah

 

[Wolfsburg]

Well I agree that there were almost certainly numerous other Rebel Alliance cells operating throughout the GFFA however, whether it makes sense or not, it appears the Alliance decided to adopt a strategy of having one primary base, which the Empire was continuously looking for. Just from the OT, we know they were on Dantooine, Yavin IV and Hoth at some point or another. The point being, it would stand to reason that the Alliance would have the best they could muster centered around their main base. This is doubly true in their effort to destroy the first Death Star, a pivotal battle for them and they knew it. Canonically, it just makes no sense why A-wings and B-wings are no where to be seen now that they exist 5 years prior to ANH. If we were only seeing less important Rebel bases in the movies, it might make some sense, but we're not. We're seeing the most important bases the Alliance has. Unless canon has now dictated otherwise, A-wings were fast interceptors and B-wings were basically "better" Y-wings. They would've been quite useful. Here's hoping Rebels explains all this because it seems like such an unnecessary thing to change up.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

However, some or all the rebel craft could be new to heavily used but recent technology. The ship's could be donated by various planetary systems, such as the Mon Cal provided the capital ships. I always felt that different military groups from other systems donated weapons, uniforms, flight gears, etc.. which is why uniformity varies. I would imagine that rebels might have a hard time otherwise getting a ship manufacture to provide them ships directly for fear of the wrath of the empire. Of course there might be manufactures in the outer rim in Hutt controlled space. But that could mean higher costs as well. I would image that the rebels might have some funding from secret supports such as struggling systems under empire control. Maybe even the Hutts if they believe it is worth the cost to keep the Empire to busy to worry about coming into their space.

Basically what I am trying to say is that fans need to keep an open mind. If the story unfolds in a way different that what you think it should be... that doesn't make it wrong.

That's one thing I hope they don't change. In fact I hope all these writers don't all jump in hoping to make their mark and change things just because they can now. I liked the fact that the X-Wings supposedly came from the engineers of Incom defecting to the Rebels with their ships. I liked that the Mon Cal brought in their ships. It visually illustrates how all kinds of species are fed up with the Empire. I'm just going to assume, for my own sanity, that the A-Wings and B-Wings were relatively new or they only had small numbers at the time of ANH.

Exactly, just like the Imperial fleet we saw at the Battle of Endor can't possibly have represented the entirety of the Imperial Fleet. Although a lot of fans like to point to the defeat of the Imperial Fleet over Endor as the destruction of the entire Imperial Fleet it just doesn't track for a number of reasons. For one thing, we know that the Empire is huge and and an empire as large as the Empire would certainly have many more ships than what we saw over Endor.

Secondly, it's even mentioned in dialogue that the Executor isn't the only SSD out there and that the Empire has lots of them and presumably each one is in command of a fleet along the same lines as we at Endor. This strongly suggests that the Emperor did not commit the entirety of the Imperial Fleet to battle the Rebels over Endor.

I assume the same for the Rebels. I always though that the Rebel fleet at Endor was a kind of "what we could get together on short notice" kind of thing and that there are other fleets. Otherwise if you go solely by the movies, up until ROTJ, we (at least I did as a kid) thought that Leia was the leader of the Rebels. The Hoth base in ESB was just one cell.

 

[Riceball]

Well I agree that there were almost certainly numerous other Rebel Alliance cells operating throughout the GFFA however, whether it makes sense or not, it appears the Alliance decided to adopt a strategy of having one primary base, which the Empire was continuously looking for. Just from the OT, we know they were on Dantooine, Yavin IV and Hoth at some point or another. The point being, it would stand to reason that the Alliance would have the best they could muster centered around their main base. This is doubly true in their effort to destroy the first Death Star, a pivotal battle for them and they knew it. Canonically, it just makes no sense why A-wings and B-wings are no where to be seen now that they exist 5 years prior to ANH. If we were only seeing less important Rebel bases in the movies, it might make some sense, but we're not. We're seeing the most important bases the Alliance has. Unless canon has now dictated otherwise, A-wings were fast interceptors and B-wings were basically "better" Y-wings. They would've been quite useful. Here's hoping Rebels explains all this because it seems like such an unnecessary thing to change up.

We don't know how important the bases Leia was at were, they probably aren't weren't completely trivial but they could be just the most active and/or troublesome. By RotJ we know that Leia's cell wasn't the main or headquarters cell since we that Mon Mothma, not Leia, is the head of the Rebellion. It's even possible that Leia was in charge of a decoy cell, a cell whose job was to make the Empire believe that they represented the leadership of the Rebellion when the actual leadership was much more hidden.

As for A & B-Wings at the Battle of Yavin, I'm not sure that they'd have been that useful when you think of their roles and, in the case of the B-Wing, their size. In assaulting the Death Star their would have been little to no need for an interceptor, what they needed more was a space superiority fighter to escort and cover the Y-Wings as well as provide backup strike capability in case the Y-Wings failed. B-Wings might have been useful because of their heavy firepower but they probably would have been too large for the Death Star's trench and would likely have been vulnerable to TIEs outside the trench which meant the X-Wings would have had to split their attention between the Bs and the Ys.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I think Leia was second tier, and that Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were the main political leaders. Leia would have inherited a lot of her father's influence, and I have a feeling the folks at Yavin were part of that faction, but that Mothma was "seniormost" and thus Leia yielded to her when the cells came together. I don't know how much weight it has any more, but the radio drama gives a nice glimpse into what sorts of activities and roles Bail and Leia were/could have been up to at the time leading up to ANH.

Similarly, I have a feeling they had already started evacuating the Yavin base after they got word of Alderaan. Rogue Group (what I am fine calling the air group composed of Gold, Red, and Blue Squadrons) would have, as with Hoth, been the ones who stayed behind to guard the evacuation of the command staff, who would have left last. Three partial-strength squadrons of X- and Y-Wings (for reasons we can have lots of fun speculating on, and I have), but lots more personnel than could fly them -- hence all the pilots in the award ceremony. It's entirely possible there never were A- or B-Wings at Yavin, that the B-Wings went to Mon Mothma's cell, that the A-Wings accompanied the Rebel starships as escort... Or just that they sent off their newest starfighters first.

--Jonah

 

[Wolfsburg]

It's all possible. I would say the Yavin and Hoth bases were very important, considering it was clearly the Empire's priority to find them in particular. In fact, the movies frankly make it seem like they were the primary bases of the Alliance. Of course, where Mon Mothma was all this time is anyone's guess. Honestly, I never really liked that such an apparently important character that had never even been hinted at before was just thrown in, shown for 5 minutes in the last movie, and then never seen again. Just seems unnecessary when Leia pretty much already filled that role. It's a moot point now.

As for the ships, I'd think the A-wings would've been useful in intercepting the few TIEs that flew out to respond to the DS attack long before they reached the ships on their bombing run and I don't think B-wings are much bigger than Y-wings? Regardless, I just hope Rebels can offer an explanation, though I still think the KISS explanation was best-which was they were never seen because they simply didn't exist yet. I guess we're beyond that now though.

 

[glunark]

Rebels has provided an explanation.

The rebels are in different cells, so if one is captured and tortured it can't give up the location or personnel of another cell.

Yavin and Hoth base were part of Liea's cell, the A wings and B wings part of a different one.

Mon Mothma would probably have had a code name and operated from the sidelines before the entire rebel alliance got together to attack the 2nd death star.

There was no time to gather the full fleet the first time since the Yavin group wasn't going to the death star, the death star was going to them.

 

[NormanF]

According to common sense. It takes ten years to create an adult 35ish-year-old clone, which means you only get 5 or 6 years out of one clone. That's an awful monetary waste if your war goes past that. Why would they continue to grow them acceleratedly past that point?

Putting aside my general hate of the term "common sense", how can you apply it to something pulled out of a writers butt? Until they explain somewhere on screen how the clones are forced to grow fast we will never now. Maybe they put a chemical in the tanks to speed up their development but when they are taken out of the tanks they age at a normal rate? In the trailer Rex has white hair. Is he aging faster or did Jango just have a gene that causes premature graying and the Kiminoans did not think it important enough to fix?

501st battalion vs legion

There were several posts about battalion size and legion size and whether the names ever change etc. The short answer is the writers probably didn't know so they just went with what sounded good. But if you have to put some sort of spin on thing, look at it this way: It was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. They didn't have a Greek or Roman military structure to base their sizes on. So maybe in Star Wars "battalion" and "legion" mean something else.

Folks, it's just a TV show. Go play outside and get some sun and fresh air.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Putting aside my general hate of the term "common sense", how can you apply it to something pulled out of a writers butt? Until they explain somewhere on screen how the clones are forced to grow fast we will never now. Maybe they put a chemical in the tanks to speed up their development but when they are taken out of the tanks they age at a normal rate? In the trailer Rex has white hair. Is he aging faster or did Jango just have a gene that causes premature graying and the Kiminoans did not think it important enough to fix?

This is all speculation of course but these are my thoughts...

The advanced growth is not a chemical they are soaking in but due to the engineering of their DNA. I also do not think they leave them in the tank till a certain age is reached. I believe that once the fetus has matured to survive on its own, it is "born" as a baby and the accelerated growth continues. Of course, like any being's development, there are birth defects. Such was the case with 99.

I would guess that since the clone army was contracted 10 years prior to the first wave, it probably takes around 9 years for the individual to reach adulthood.

Also something to consider. There is nothing that states the growth rate is consistent throughout the clone's lifespan. Each stage of development (infant, toddler, child, teen, adult) may incrementally get slower along each stage. Sort of like a dog's lifespan but stretched out more.

There were several posts about battalion size and legion size and whether the names ever change etc. The short answer is the writers probably didn't know so they just went with what sounded good. But if you have to put some sort of spin on thing, look at it this way: It was a long time ago in a galaxy far away. They didn't have a Greek or Roman military structure to base their sizes on. So maybe in Star Wars "battalion" and "legion" mean something else.

I never expect that terms mean the same in another fictional world. That's why I never considered the term Parsec as the parsec we use for distance. I always considered it as maybe a slang term for unit of speed like Parakilons per Second. What's a Parakilon you ask? I don't know but Han Solo knows and doing the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs is fast. And yes... I do know the explanation used in the old EU.... which is just one of so many reasons I am glad the old EU is gone

In the navy, I was once part of a Navy Expeditionary Logistics Regiment... it was staffed by about 15 people and made up of 4 Cargo Handling Battalions which I estimate at about 500 members total. And that number could easily change if the Navy decided to add or cut battalions to a regiments. Also, the Battalion numbers could change if their core mission was altered to add or cut responsibilities. So basically the terms as to what the numbers mean can change from different organizations and also over time.

 

[Wolfsburg]

@ glunark...All we know is that's true 5 years before ANH, with the fledgeling Rebellion being in an even more delicate state. A lot can change in that time and frankly the finale made it seem like they might start consolidating, at least in my mind. When Fulcrum decides to stick her neck out to come save the day, I got the impression things were changing. The movies certainly never gave the impression that Yavin or even Hoth weren't THE Rebel base, albeit at different times. My impression was there was the primary "HQ", with perhaps little splinter cells spread throughout.

If that really is the explanation they go with, Yavin IV and Hoth being reduced to merely "Leia's cell", so be it, but it seems like such an unnecessary thing for Filoni to fiddle with.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Here is a report from the Rebels panel at Celebration:
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/2015/04/18/star-wars-rebels-season-two-press-conference/

and here is a report of the Season 2 premiere screened at Celebration:
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/2015/04/19/star-wars-rebels-season-2-premiere-at-sw-celebration/

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

This was recently posted on the Rebels Fb page:

The stolen TIE fighter seen in "Fire Across the Galaxy", which dates back to the episode "Fighter Flight," was originally going to be seen a few times throughout the series as a background project secretly undertaken by Ezra and Sabine.

I mention this because it was brought up earlier. I had remarked that because every moment of time is accounted for in season one, it is possible for Ezra and Sabine to have taken time to work on it. It would seem the the original story concept supports my claim.

On a related note, I thought this was a cool picture.

 

[Bryancd]

Listening to the Rebels press conference from this weekend and Dave said that the character design for Ezra was one he created and it was mostly based on Ralph Macchio and NOT Aladdin. So that crazed hysteria of Rebels and Disney bashing was completely ill informed as usual.

 

[Riceball]

On a related note, I thought this was a cool picture.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDSam4YUMAEAgHo.jpg

Someone so needs to release a toy, or even a decent model, of that TIE.

On the subject of TIEs, is it just me or does anyone else feel that the interiors of the TIEs on Rebels are way too large? From what I remember seeing in the OT they never looked to be all that spacious on the inside, maybe not as cramped as an X-Wing or Snowspeeder, enough room for just a single pilot with a bit room to spare but the ones on Rebels look big enough inside for 3 - 4 people with a bit of room to spare.

 

[MooCriket]

Listening to the Rebels press conference from this weekend and Dave said that the character design for Ezra was one he created and it was mostly based on Ralph Macchio and NOT Aladdin. So that crazed hysteria of Rebels and Disney bashing was completely ill informed as usual.

Ha! I can see that now. He needs to work in a wax on, wax off joke now.

 

[Riceball]

Ha! I can see that now. He needs to work in a wax on, wax off joke now.

Better yet, have him do a crane kick stance from the first Karate Kid movie.