Star Wars Obi-Wan Kenobi (tv series)

[Psab keel]

I agree. This would seem to be the crux of what could make this confrontation in the show work. I think that speaks to a failing on the part of George with ROTS that Obi-Wan came across as heartless when he left Anakin to die there. I think it would have been far more effective if Anakin attacked him first. All the while Obi-Wan tried to reason with his friend. Despite what Obi-Wan witnessed he could maintain his nobility and express love for his brother by refusing to be provoked into fighting. Obi's position in the duel could be completely defensive, trying to maintain control and de-escalate it, only striking Anakin down when he had no other choice.

If I recall the ROTJ novelization correctly there was a passage of time between when the two fought and Obi-Wan saw what Anakin had become in the form of Vader in the suit because as of the end of their duel, Obi-Wan didn't leave Anakin for dead, he honestly thought Anakin was dead. Whether that was Anakin fell into a lava pit or however it was described by that old canon. As it stands now Obi-Wan drew his weapon first and he walked away from him screaming in agony. I guess it could be argued though that after seeing Padme choked out, Obi had cause to draw first. Idk. It's just such a delicate balance for this upcoming "match" to work.

I do like the idea that Obi-Wan sees what Anakin has become in the suit and the realization of the monster he's become. I'm still highly concerned how they will handle this and not keen on a physical confrontation, but that utter shock at seeing Anakin as this mechanical being could be really amazing to watch if handled right. I just don't know if I trust the writing to be able to handle subtleties though. I would be more than happy to eat crow and be totally wrong for being concerned, but until then, I'm holding on to my reservations.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Well I think that when Obi-Wan confronted Anakin, he had just seen his entire life destroyed and his student was the cause. I think he had resigned himself that if Anakin couldn't be turned, he had to be killed. I don't think it was out of any malice. I think Obi-Wan did it in complete Jedi serenity. It had to be done. I also think he was sure Anakin was dead, because after all he WAS ON FIRE. Not to mention that Padme was injured and he had to help her rather than help a possible lost cause. He may have figured the fire would finish Anakin off, where he actually didn't have the heart to walk over and finish him off like he should have.

 

[HeartBlade]

Well I think that when Obi-Wan confronted Anakin, he had just seen his entire life destroyed and his student was the cause. I think he had resigned himself that if Anakin couldn't be turned, he had to be killed. I don't think it was out of any malice. I think Obi-Wan did it in complete Jedi serenity. It had to be done. I also think he was sure Anakin was dead, because after all he WAS ON FIRE. Not to mention that Padme was injured and he had to help her rather than help a possible lost cause. He may have figured the fire would finish Anakin off, where he actually didn't have the heart to walk over and finish him off like he should have.

Well Anakin had 3 limbs cut off and was edges from lava burning to death. Would have been more humane to cut him down there but that would kill off Vader so no dice.

There is the fan theory that Anakin only survived because he used his connection with Padme to essentially suck life force from her to keep himself alive, killing her in the process (which is a better explanation than dying from a “broken heart” which would be cool if confirmed in Kenobi) so if that were true, it could be that Obi Wan sensed Anakin was dead and he really only survived through unnatural means thanks to the dark side of the force and being the one.

I do feel that everything was kind of achieved in the RotS duel though. Obi Wan did ignite his saber first but that could be because he sensed Anakin was going to attack. He is very defensive throughout the fight with Anakin being the one pressing him during most of the duel (although how much of that is Obi Wan’s style vs unwillingness to attack is debatable). I dont think it would have been a good duel if Obi Wan was constantly trying to beg Anakin to come back to the light but the I have failed you, from my point of view the jedi are evil was the speech that Obi Wan determined that Anakin was couldnt come back to the light.

The duel also has Anakin call Obi Wan his master so him still being the learner still makes sense (with the armored Vader being the “new master” being a mockery of the concept now that he is a monstrous being more machine than man).

I dont disagree with the proposals people have raised here or the fact that this is an “exciting” match since it is likley going to be Vader in his near prime as “Vader” vs Obi Wan in his near prime compared to ANH when both were old men but I just dont think Disney can pull it off. If Dominos kept serving me lasagna when I ordered pizza, why should I expect they will deliver pizza, let alone gourmet pizza, this time?

 

[Psab keel]

I also like the theory that what kept Anakin alive after getting burned was his hatred for Kenobi. We all know that hate can be a powerful motivator and I'd imagine it's what bought him enough time until Palpatine showed up (not that he was aware that Palpatine was coming to rescue him). Can we acknowledge that for the flaws of ROTS, that shot of Palpatine kneeling down to Anakin on the lava bank is still one of the coolest shots in the entire saga.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

I also like the theory that what kept Anakin alive after getting burned was his hatred for Kenobi. We all know that hate can be a powerful motivator and I'd imagine it's what bought him enough time until Palpatine showed up (not that he was aware that Palpatine was coming to rescue him). Can we acknowledge that for the flaws of ROTS, that shot of Palpatine kneeling down to Anakin on the lava bank is still one of the coolest shots in the entire saga.

I completely agree with every word of this, but his hatred for Kenobi is also what kept Maul alive & folks believe that was insanely ridiculous.

I get that being bisected is different than what happened to Anakin, but even there, we're talking about a triple amputation & at least 3rd degree burns over probably 98% of his remaining body.

 

[Jamesfett]

I get that being bisected is different than what happened to Anakin, but even there, we're talking about a triple amputation & at least 3rd degree burns over probably 98% of his remaining body.

When your friend and mentor slices off your three remaining limbs and turn you into a toasty smore marshmallow, don't forget the Neosporin. It works wonders.

 

[Jamesfett]

It's good for slices, dices, bisection, amputation, burns, and bug bites.

 

[Psab keel]

In the case of Maul there are three factors where I object to his survival. Getting bisected, falling down a seemingly endless pit, and not witnessing how he survived either incident. If it had been a matter of watching him fall alone I might buy that he could have grabbed onto something, but the bisection was sort of the clincher in selling the idea that he was a goner.

Anakin, despite having limbs amputated is honestly nowhere near as traumatic as being sliced in half where your vital organs are damaged. It's kind of hard to excuse that Maul's physiology differed all that greatly from humans. Its obvious his species is humanoid and it stands to reason that he bears enough similarity to what we know of human anatomy otherwise he would look like an animal or some other creature, having key organs placed in different areas of the body.

Anakin also didn't fall hundreds of feet but hit the ground and rolled 20 feet at most. He burned but Palpatine also came to his aid shortly after the incident, having life saving measures applied immediately. Had Palpatine showed up any later and Anakin would have died. The fact that the Emperor saved his life also implies Anakin would have a certain amount of loyalty to him as well, which I'd imagine is part of Vader's hesitation to turn on him in ROTJ.

It's the same logic that would keep me from believing in the survival of Mace Windu if they ever decided to bring him back. It's one thing to have his hand cut off but that's minor by comparison to being thrown out a window hundreds of feet up. The biggest factor in that case is him being electrocuted before being thrown and that would stop his heart with the amount of energy being pumped into his body.

Thematically I think the idea of hatred keeping a character alive works and if the circumstances of Maul's death were different I would agree with you. Personally I think Maul should not have been killed in TPM and escaped to fight another day, which would have allowed George to develop him into a fully realized character that was a true antagonist throughout the PT until he is finally killed by Ep.3. Though in typical fashion George killed him off too early and fans were so attached to him because he looked cool so George brought him back in the Clone Wars cartoon.

George had a habit in the PT of "creating a new icon" in the form of Maul, Dooku, and Grevious, rather that take a single one and develop them over the course of that trilogy. From a marketing perspective it's brilliant to have a new face to sell merchandise but from a story perspective it can also crowd the areas that needed time to breathe.

 

[Laspector]

I no more believe in hate keeping you alive than I do dying from a broken heart.

 

[Psab keel]

Debbie Reynolds is the only example I can think of where that may be true.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I no more believe in hate keeping you alive than I do dying from a broken heart.

That's fine, but mainlining the Dark Side gives the former an edge. And pining is a thing, but it takes longer than George portrayed things in his hyper-compressed Empire Day. Usually a grieving partner will hang on for months or years, but definitely fading until they succumb. In dialogue from ROTJ, Padmé is implied to have survived for several years, give or take -- since I reject the notion newborns can remember how anything looks when they can't focus their eyes yet.

I don't think Vader drew from Padmé. For as much as people like to say it, having rewatched that portion specifically to see, no he does not take his first breath in the suit as she dies on the table. Plus, I feel if he did that, he'd've also drained the life-force from any life she was carrying equally.

I am personally fine with Obi-Wan encountering Vader once between ROTS and ANH. It's still awkward because at the time the original film was made, Anakin and Vader were separate characters. The one being an established Jedi Knight and friend of Obi-Wan's, the other being a student of Obi-Wan's who was co-opted by the Emperor. The "When I left you, I was but the Learner" line doesn't work for Anakin. By the time they were merged into the same character, Ben's ROTJ dialogue comes into play. Specifically, the "I once thought as you did" part, and the "He's more machine now than man -- twisted and evil" part. The implication there, to me, is that he made probably an attempt to bring Vader back over once he realized he'd survived the lava, it didn't go well, and he left that encounter with the impression he relays to Luke.

 

[HeartBlade]

Thematically I think the idea of hatred keeping a character alive works and if the circumstances of Maul's death were different I would agree with you. Personally I think Maul should not have been killed in TPM and escaped to fight another day, which would have allowed George to develop him into a fully realized character that was a true antagonist throughout the PT until he is finally killed by Ep.3. Though in typical fashion George killed him off too early and fans were so attached to him because he looked cool so George brought him back in the Clone Wars cartoon.

Agreed. I did think the interesting thing the comics did was make Anakin's source of hatred being himself (for killing Padme). Anakin's hatred then arguably helped hinder Vader since whenever Anakin used his hatred to being healing his body, he would get a little happy and that would halt the hatred.

George had a habit in the PT of "creating a new icon" in the form of Maul, Dooku, and Grevious, rather that take a single one and develop them over the course of that trilogy. From a marketing perspective it's brilliant to have a new face to sell merchandise but from a story perspective it can also crowd the areas that needed time to breathe.

Yeah, maybe this was due to a desire to sell more toys but the lack of a central main villain hurt the narrative.

It could be spun as the 3 villains represent/foreshadow aspects of Vader (Maul represents anger and Vader's eventual role as an assassin that hunts the jedi down, Dooku is Anakin's skill and the fact that even a master can fall, and Grevious the body modifications and early experiments as a cyborg). The changing villains could also have been a source of confusion for the jedi since they believe they are the masterminds behind the seperatists when in reality its Palpatine sitting right under their noses.

Not sure if this is what Lucas wanted but if he did, it was executed poorly.

 

[joberg]

It's good for slices, dices, bisection, amputation, burns, and bug bites.

...and flesh wounds of course

 

[joberg]

I no more believe in hate keeping you alive than I do dying from a broken heart.

Seems the "dying from a broken heart" is a recognized subject by the medical profession...

 

[Psab keel]

The fact that we need a limited series almost twenty years after the fact to explain away that Obi-Wan was trying to save his friend shows how ROTS was flawed in it's execution. We all know Lucas has a habit of condensing down essential dramatic elements to it's bare bones while wasting precious screen time on subplots or characters that interest him but ones who have nothing to do with the main story. What should have taken place in AOTC and ROTS had to be addressed in Clone Wars, namely establishing that Anakin and Obi-Wan were friends.

Obi-Wan should have tried to reason with Anakin to come back to the light, but he never indicates that he wants him to come back, only that Anakin must die and this reflects a failure to develop Anakin as conflicted just as much as it conveys Obi-Wan as somewhat compassionless. I think that has to do with George not knowing how to convey that as a writer than anything else. We're also running on the assumption that this series is going to address this idea at all, when it's entirely possible it will never be a factor.

It's natural to assume that any continuity issues would be addressed but experience has shown us that more issues are created in the attempt. This is the heart of the problem when they create stories to fill in time gaps between trilogies. The EU faced the same problem and not only did the continuity suffer but so did the quality of the writing because the authors were constrained by established events. Instead of venturing elsewhere and not having to rely on certain benchmarks, it only eroded the credibility of the existing material by creating problems that needed constant correction.

Right after I typed this I saw this post by Prop Store:

 

[Lightning]

"When I left you, I was but the Learner" line doesn't work for Anakin.

It works if Vader if referring to the Dark Side

"When I left you, I was but the Learner (of the Dark Side, and that's why you beat me). Now I am the Master (of the Dark Side)."

"Only a Master of Evil, Darth". Obi-Wan referencing the dark side as well.

 

[CT1138]

Debbie Reynolds is the only example I can think of where that may be true.

It is sadly poetic. :'(

 

[Psab keel]

To lose two icons within such a short span. It's just awful.

 

[Jamesfett]

Darth Sloth. He is slow, but hardcore.

No reason.


.

 

[HeartBlade]

The fact that we need a limited series almost twenty years after the fact to explain away that Obi-Wan was trying to save his friend shows how ROTS was flawed in it's execution. We all know Lucas has a habit of condensing down essential dramatic elements to it's bare bones while wasting precious screen time on subplots or characters that interest him but ones who have nothing to do with the main story. What should have taken place in AOTC and ROTS had to be addressed in Clone Wars, namely establishing that Anakin and Obi-Wan were friends.

I agree. It might be because Lucas wanted to cover a more complex story in PT compared to OT (OT is arguably a simple good vs evil story with clear sides while PT has subterfuge, prophecy, and politics to deal with) but that resulted in a scope was too big with a poorly told story with not enough character development among the main cast. Hell, Anakin and Padme's love, which is the crux of the trilogy, feels rushed and underdeveloped and I still dont know why Padme fell for Anakin.

Once big difference seems to be that script writing for OT was done by others while Lucas did almost all the writing for PT so lack of diverse thinking and his writing weaknesses were on full display with PT. As a story, PT is really disjointed and feels both bloated and underdeveloped. Really could have used another set of eyes and rewrites before being produced. PT was very unique in terms of the varied worlds and newly introduced aliens and concepts but falters in terms of telling a coherent story.