Jedi mind tricks for free food
OWK turning tricks to survive is now perilously close to becoming head canon.
Why'd you do that to me, man, why?!?
Star Wars Obi-Wan Kenobi (tv series)
- Thread starter ghostryder
- Start date
OWK turning tricks to survive is now perilously close to becoming head canon.
Why'd you do that to me, man, why?!?
LOL
sbaxter
Sr Member
I don't know; it seems to me that they could come up with a good story reason for Obi-Wan to leave Tatooine temporarily. Obi-Wan was already not keeping tabs on Luke 24/7 (or however long days and weeks are on Tatooine); he wasn't right there at the Lars Homestead, where he could respond to any threat at a moment's notice. I think that if they come up with a story point by which Obi-Wan is reasonably convinced that keeping Luke safe somehow depends on him going off-world for something (whether to intercept a threat, to draw a threat away, or something along those lines), that could work.
I recall during the prequel era that some fans insisted Lucas somehow got the whole concept of the clone army wrong because the clones were somehow "supposed" to be the enemy of the Republic that the Jedi would fight against from the outset. I never understood that (at least not the deep disapproval of it; I could understand the expectation itself because I had shared it) because it wasn't based on anything except audience assumption, and I felt what we actually got was much more interesting. This could be the same type of thing, just an assumption that Obi-Wan could not and never would leave Tatooine under any circumstances until the events of A New Hope. There are ways around that idea that could work. I don't think they'll have him leave just for a vacation.
SSB
I recall during the prequel era that some fans insisted Lucas somehow got the whole concept of the clone army wrong because the clones were somehow "supposed" to be the enemy of the Republic that the Jedi would fight against from the outset. I never understood that (at least not the deep disapproval of it; I could understand the expectation itself because I had shared it) because it wasn't based on anything except audience assumption, and I felt what we actually got was much more interesting. This could be the same type of thing, just an assumption that Obi-Wan could not and never would leave Tatooine under any circumstances until the events of A New Hope. There are ways around that idea that could work. I don't think they'll have him leave just for a vacation.
SSB
There's a couple of inherent problems with that idea though. I've already explained at length how it would undo Obi-Wan's character arc and undermine the nobility of the Jedi who sacrificed everything to protect A New Hope (ie. Luke), but setting that aside for a moment let's consider the logistics of how this would play out.
If we're assuming that the existing saga films are considered canon then it automatically breaks key elements of those established stories. At the end of Revenge of the Sith Vader is told he killed Padme. Luke's existence is unknown to Vader until the attack on the first Death Star in the original film and between that event and the beginning of the Empire Strikes Back he learns that this rebel pilot is his son. Having Vader seek out his offspring between ROTS and ANH would make no logical sense since as far as he knows Padme is dead and the baby died with her. The timeline just doesn't add up. How can Vader or the Empire seek out Vader's offspring who to their knowledge, don't exist?
By hiding Luke and Leia away from the eyes of the Empire (or at the least the knowledge of their lineage in Leia's case) Obi-Wan, Bail Organa, and Yoda by default have the tactical advantage. Now in order to explain this discrepancy, we could assume the writers would have to explain a scenario in which knowledge of Luke existence or Leia's parentage could be divulged to the Empire, but then they have to explain who knows it and more importantly how do they know it?
There were few eye witnesses to their birth and there were hundreds of people who attended Padme's funeral who saw her body with a swollen belly so the reasonable assumption was that the child died with her. Plus only Obi-Wan, Bail, Yoda, and some droids even knew there were twins, so that knowledge was even more limited in terms of who was privvy to it. Unless R2 is some sort of snitch..... Vader didn't even learn of Leia's lineage until the climax of ROTJ, so you can't even factor her into that part of it realistically.
You can't make the excuse that Palpatine knew about the twins either because if he did then he would have sent Vader out to kill them. Even making the claim Palpatine would send others to kill the twins makes even less sense when Vader was his right hand man. Plus having Inquisitors rather than Vader murdering Jedi and Rebels really brings Vader down in stature as Palpatine's apprentice and subdues him as a villain.
Secondly, even if we disregard these factors you still have to consider that by the time news that someone was after Luke reached Obi-Wan, it would be too late. Tatooine is then compromised as an effective hiding place and they would be on the run from the Empire or whoever was after them. I mean it's clear that he lives in isolation and keeping direct contact with key figures in the Rebellion would make him a target so how could anyone warn Obi-Wan? Besides, if Luke's location wasn't that important then why didn't Obi-Wan spend the 20 years between ROTS and ANH helping build the Rebellion? Why did Leia have to seek him out?
It just raises too many questions and breaks too many key story components that would ruin the established works, all for the excuse to have more lightsaber fights and planet hopping. I mean those are fun elements to a story, but if you have to break that much canon to just to have a few flashy elements then I'm not on board with that. At all. Again all of this runs on the assumption that existing canon is actually going to be honored, which we know for a fact is mutable given the way these stories are always handled now.
If we're assuming that the existing saga films are considered canon then it automatically breaks key elements of those established stories. At the end of Revenge of the Sith Vader is told he killed Padme. Luke's existence is unknown to Vader until the attack on the first Death Star in the original film and between that event and the beginning of the Empire Strikes Back he learns that this rebel pilot is his son. Having Vader seek out his offspring between ROTS and ANH would make no logical sense since as far as he knows Padme is dead and the baby died with her. The timeline just doesn't add up. How can Vader or the Empire seek out Vader's offspring who to their knowledge, don't exist?
By hiding Luke and Leia away from the eyes of the Empire (or at the least the knowledge of their lineage in Leia's case) Obi-Wan, Bail Organa, and Yoda by default have the tactical advantage. Now in order to explain this discrepancy, we could assume the writers would have to explain a scenario in which knowledge of Luke existence or Leia's parentage could be divulged to the Empire, but then they have to explain who knows it and more importantly how do they know it?
There were few eye witnesses to their birth and there were hundreds of people who attended Padme's funeral who saw her body with a swollen belly so the reasonable assumption was that the child died with her. Plus only Obi-Wan, Bail, Yoda, and some droids even knew there were twins, so that knowledge was even more limited in terms of who was privvy to it. Unless R2 is some sort of snitch.....
Vader didn't even learn of Leia's lineage until the climax of ROTJ, so you can't even factor her into that part of it realistically.You can't make the excuse that Palpatine knew about the twins either because if he did then he would have sent Vader out to kill them. Even making the claim Palpatine would send others to kill the twins makes even less sense when Vader was his right hand man. Plus having Inquisitors rather than Vader murdering Jedi and Rebels really brings Vader down in stature as Palpatine's apprentice and subdues him as a villain.
Secondly, even if we disregard these factors you still have to consider that by the time news that someone was after Luke reached Obi-Wan, it would be too late. Tatooine is then compromised as an effective hiding place and they would be on the run from the Empire or whoever was after them. I mean it's clear that he lives in isolation and keeping direct contact with key figures in the Rebellion would make him a target so how could anyone warn Obi-Wan? Besides, if Luke's location wasn't that important then why didn't Obi-Wan spend the 20 years between ROTS and ANH helping build the Rebellion? Why did Leia have to seek him out?
It just raises too many questions and breaks too many key story components that would ruin the established works, all for the excuse to have more lightsaber fights and planet hopping. I mean those are fun elements to a story, but if you have to break that much canon to just to have a few flashy elements then I'm not on board with that. At all. Again all of this runs on the assumption that existing canon is actually going to be honored, which we know for a fact is mutable given the way these stories are always handled now.
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
Anyway...I just finished re-reading Kenobi by John Jackson Miller. I know it's been mentioned a few times before but what a great book. It was better than I remembered. Very entertaining. If you haven't read it, you should give it a chance.
I can't realistically see a scenario where it's of paramount importance for him to leave. The galaxy is already in turmoil and the Empire rules. How much worse can it get? Having him go off world diminishes everything and there's not likely a more viable threat that would plunge things even deeper into chaos. Dramatically speaking the story is already at its lowest point, no?
But I guess continuity doesn't really matter to a lot of fans. Oh well. I know I'm in the minority on this. It seems to me that if you have to constantly break the continuity in order to tell more stories, by default you devalue the existing work and it's difficult to stay invested because it treats any of it as disposable.
It's like reading your favorite novel only to have a new author step in every few years to rewrite the same story when you've already enjoyed it for all that time. You know the only reason for the change is to bank on your emotional attachment to the story and make a few bucks rather than because it's what best serves the narrative.
At the very least if they were more deft with the of handling of it something viable could be done, but I'm far past trusting it can be done competently and there's decades of proof to warrant my suspicions.
I would love to be proven wrong.
But I guess continuity doesn't really matter to a lot of fans. Oh well. I know I'm in the minority on this. It seems to me that if you have to constantly break the continuity in order to tell more stories, by default you devalue the existing work and it's difficult to stay invested because it treats any of it as disposable.
It's like reading your favorite novel only to have a new author step in every few years to rewrite the same story when you've already enjoyed it for all that time. You know the only reason for the change is to bank on your emotional attachment to the story and make a few bucks rather than because it's what best serves the narrative.
At the very least if they were more deft with the of handling of it something viable could be done, but I'm far past trusting it can be done competently and there's decades of proof to warrant my suspicions.
I would love to be proven wrong.
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I don't think it's fair to assume & assert that a story we know no details of, is going to break any sort of ASSUMED continuity, nor is it fair to characterize fans that could enjoy that story as lesser because they are more accepting that there are things that we simply don't know about that time period.
Ben is a character that was introduced being deceptive. He impersonated a dragon to get the Tusken Raiders off Luke in a genius move, but then straight up lied to Luke. He manipulated Luke's innocence to build him into the hero that Ben felt like was needed, discouraging him from following his own path at every turn. When he was called out on it, he hid behind the 'certain point of view' curtain to justify straight up lies. His Jedi era title of 'The Negotiator' even hints at his ability to be manipulating.
Don't get me wrong, Obi Wan is probably one of my favorite characters across the board, but I personally think he saw Luke as a tool to be used & little else.
Those are the reasons I'M willing to watch this & see what else he could've been lying about.
Yet by that logic Obi-Wan isn't a noble character at all, but a master manipulator. It seems to me that's a pretty cynical view of a character who's supposed to be heroic. I really don't get how he sounds appealing at all in that light, but you're entitled to your view, even if I strongly disagree.
The details I listed as for why it could potentially be problematic for this series are not assumed, they're immutable. These are established story elements that exist in the films and if we can't find common ground on the basics then why are we having the discussion at all? They're not derived from any other source other than watching those movies alone. I'm not referencing anything else. So to claim I'm only making assumptions is deflecting and trying to frame my concerns as invalid when they have merit because my points are grounded in what has been presented to the audience.
Do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they won't address the potential story conflicts? No. Which is why any assumptions I did make were to try and posit solutions for these issues, but those ideas only presented me with more problems and raised more questions than they answered.
Fans can like whatever they want so I'm not saying they're lesser than anyone else. I'm just saying that continuity is important if you value story and to reiterate my thoughts are based solely on what has been presented by watching the saga films. Nothing more.
I also did say I hope I'm proven wrong but then again I was in the process of clarifying my post when you replied. My apprehension could be completely unfounded and they might knock this out of the park and weave this new story seemlessly into the existing ones.
I just have my doubts given the way the series has been handled for decades now. I'll repeat I would be thrilled to be wrong. Besides all of this is merely speculation and until the final product is delivered none of us can say concretely one way or the other.
The details I listed as for why it could potentially be problematic for this series are not assumed, they're immutable. These are established story elements that exist in the films and if we can't find common ground on the basics then why are we having the discussion at all? They're not derived from any other source other than watching those movies alone. I'm not referencing anything else. So to claim I'm only making assumptions is deflecting and trying to frame my concerns as invalid when they have merit because my points are grounded in what has been presented to the audience.
Do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they won't address the potential story conflicts? No. Which is why any assumptions I did make were to try and posit solutions for these issues, but those ideas only presented me with more problems and raised more questions than they answered.
Fans can like whatever they want so I'm not saying they're lesser than anyone else. I'm just saying that continuity is important if you value story and to reiterate my thoughts are based solely on what has been presented by watching the saga films. Nothing more.
I also did say I hope I'm proven wrong but then again I was in the process of clarifying my post when you replied. My apprehension could be completely unfounded and they might knock this out of the park and weave this new story seemlessly into the existing ones.
I just have my doubts given the way the series has been handled for decades now. I'll repeat I would be thrilled to be wrong. Besides all of this is merely speculation and until the final product is delivered none of us can say concretely one way or the other.
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joberg
Legendary Member
Sure; Obi-Wan is trying to coerce Luke to join the Rebellion in NH without success. It only becomes personal when his Uncle/Ant are killed and for the fact that there isn't any attachments to anything anymore (the Farm, Tatooine, etc).
And, for the sake of the argument, how would Luke have reacted if Obi-Wan had said, from the beginning, that his Father was Darth? Was Luke ready to hear the truth? That is, strong enough mentally, to take that news...and to finally fight Darth Vader in ESB knowing full well that it was his Father?
And, for the sake of the argument, how would Luke have reacted if Obi-Wan had said, from the beginning, that his Father was Darth? Was Luke ready to hear the truth? That is, strong enough mentally, to take that news...and to finally fight Darth Vader in ESB knowing full well that it was his Father?
Wolfsburg
Master Member
I honestly kinda wonder how aware Luke even was of Darth Vader. He didn’t seem to obviously know him when Obi-wan was telling him about a “young Jedi named Darth Vader”.
As far as the nature of Obi-wan’s escapades while hiding, for me it’s a clear matter of: just because they can, doesn’t mean they should. Technically they can have Obi-wan bouncing around the galaxy on a giant pogo stick for 20 years, only returning to Tatooine in time to rescue Luke from the sand people…but that doesn’t mean they should.
As far as the nature of Obi-wan’s escapades while hiding, for me it’s a clear matter of: just because they can, doesn’t mean they should. Technically they can have Obi-wan bouncing around the galaxy on a giant pogo stick for 20 years, only returning to Tatooine in time to rescue Luke from the sand people…but that doesn’t mean they should.
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
I share a few of those doubts and have some of my own. They aren't enough to dissuade or prevent watching with an open mind (I truly don't think that's the intent). There are a lot of good things that could come out of this show as well but for some reason this thread seems to come back to the same issues/topics again and again.
When it comes down to it this discussion is opinion and interpretation which are not absolute. Why the events in the OT happened the way they did and characters motivations depend entirely on whose viewing it and how they interpret what they saw. For example Obi-Wan is a liar, a manipulator at times and even a failure but yet he's still a noble hero. Everyone, even the best of humanity has flaws, sometimes tragic. It's one of the amazing aspects of his character. This is my interpretation of him. It really doesn't matter if others agree or not. My point is no one is trying to invalidate your concerns, they're yours. No one can take that from you. But on the same token no one has to agree with them either.
When this comes out no one is going to care or even remember who was right or wrong about the show (except the few self important who try to bring it to everyone's attention). All that's going to matter is whether or not the show was enjoyable. Hopefully it will be.
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I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's potential enjoyment of the show either, I'm just musing on the story possibilities and the challenges it faces. Any post here until it's release is speculation no matter what your position and no matter what all that counts is the end product.
As someone pointed out before the new comics and/or books have already had Vader back on Tatooine after Lucas has said, numerous times, that Vader would NEVER go back to Tatooine. That's THE reason they hid Luke there. Vader knows that it would make him think of his mom and Anakin would surface and he's trying to kill off Anakin permanently. So I think parts of Lucasfilm are fine with ignoring canon (and fans by default) to make whatever cockamamie story they come up with.
My guess is that Satine (from TCW) sends Obi-Wan a text saying "You up....?" and he leaves for an intergalactic booty call. There's no much to do on Tatooine.
My guess is that Satine (from TCW) sends Obi-Wan a text saying "You up....?" and he leaves for an intergalactic booty call. There's no much to do on Tatooine.
OddballFett
Active Member
There's a couple of inherent problems with that idea though. I've already explained at length how it would undo Obi-Wan's character arc and undermine the nobility of the Jedi who sacrificed everything to protect A New Hope (ie. Luke), but setting that aside for a moment let's consider the logistics of how this would play out.
If we're assuming that the existing saga films are considered canon then it automatically breaks key elements of those established stories. At the end of Revenge of the Sith Vader is told he killed Padme. Luke's existence is unknown to Vader until the attack on the first Death Star in the original film and between that event and the beginning of the Empire Strikes Back he learns that this rebel pilot is his son. Having Vader seek out his offspring between ROTS and ANH would make no logical sense since as far as he knows Padme is dead and the baby died with her. The timeline just doesn't add up. How can Vader or the Empire seek out Vader's offspring who to their knowledge, don't exist?
By hiding Luke and Leia away from the eyes of the Empire (or at the least the knowledge of their lineage in Leia's case) Obi-Wan, Bail Organa, and Yoda by default have the tactical advantage. Now in order to explain this discrepancy, we could assume the writers would have to explain a scenario in which knowledge of Luke existence or Leia's parentage could be divulged to the Empire, but then they have to explain who knows it and more importantly how do they know it?
There were few eye witnesses to their birth and there were hundreds of people who attended Padme's funeral who saw her body with a swollen belly so the reasonable assumption was that the child died with her. Plus only Obi-Wan, Bail, Yoda, and some droids even knew there were twins, so that knowledge was even more limited in terms of who was privvy to it. Unless R2 is some sort of snitch.....
You can't make the excuse that Palpatine knew about the twins either because if he did then he would have sent Vader out to kill them. Even making the claim Palpatine would send others to kill the twins makes even less sense when Vader was his right hand man. Plus having Inquisitors rather than Vader murdering Jedi and Rebels really brings Vader down in stature as Palpatine's apprentice and subdues him as a villain.
Secondly, even if we disregard these factors you still have to consider that by the time news that someone was after Luke reached Obi-Wan, it would be too late. Tatooine is then compromised as an effective hiding place and they would be on the run from the Empire or whoever was after them. I mean it's clear that he lives in isolation and keeping direct contact with key figures in the Rebellion would make him a target so how could anyone warn Obi-Wan? Besides, if Luke's location wasn't that important then why didn't Obi-Wan spend the 20 years between ROTS and ANH helping build the Rebellion? Why did Leia have to seek him out?
It just raises too many questions and breaks too many key story components that would ruin the established works, all for the excuse to have more lightsaber fights and planet hopping. I mean those are fun elements to a story, but if you have to break that much canon to just to have a few flashy elements then I'm not on board with that. At all. Again all of this runs on the assumption that existing canon is actually going to be honored, which we know for a fact is mutable given the way these stories are always handled now.
The prequels themselves did introduce, maybe not outright story contradictions, but certainly a few plausibility problems. EU stuff (novels, etc) can often try to rationalise (and sometimes fail spectacularly) And true that new movies or shows also have a bad habit of roughshodding what went before (if Palpatine new he had a son who could make lots of baby sprogs who could come back and kick his wrinkly behind then he wouldn't care less about Luke and Leia, Vader be dammed - I mean seriously they gotta be kidding) I'm certainly no fan of Inquisitors either.
While I'm looking forward to the show, I'm still very concerned about how they can handle the idea of meeting up Obi-Wan and Darth Vader again without reducing the impact of ANH, not to mention the complexity of keeping the kids secret. If it was done with Hayden playing Anakin in flashbacks with Obi-Wan during the Clone Wars then that would be okay. Even have Anakin in scenes as Darth Vader while one (or both of them) reminice about the good old days. But the idea that they actually have another saber duel between ROTS and ANH is not only completely superfluous (and implying Vader got beat - again) but potentially undermine the impact of their meeting in the very first ever Star Wars movie.
OddballFett
Active Member
LAME! Vader's scared of Tatooine. May as well just say it's because he doesn't like sand. Seriously, even that's a better explanation than he's gonna cry over his mom. This is why I don't read the books.
He can't call up Satine though. The Clone Wars were too much for her...
I agree whole heartedly. I can more or less brush off certain inconsistencies as long as they aren't critically flawed in terms of their contradiction. What I mean by that is an easter egg that doesn't really effect the broad strokes of a story or a weird character choice or line of dialog can be excused or mostly ignored (a nitpick if you will) but a change that effects the previous key events is always a red flag for me. My concern is the preservation of the story integrity that has already been established and this is specific to this series because it's been told out of chronological order. It might be a bit more palatable if it was told sequentially and then the likelyhood of inconsistency would be less than trying to fill in the gaps. Which is why I tend to identify with the Mad Libs analogy at times.
Why is it lame? Are you seriously saying you would be totally emotionless if your mom was tortured and then died in your arms? I doubt it. I think it's a pretty good explanation for why he wouldn't go back.
Vader is trying really hard in those 20 years to totally kill off any trace of Anakin. We see it in the OT when he's struggling with finding Luke. If you're that big on thinking he's a wuss for missing his mom, you must really hate that he went back to the Light Side because he loved his son!
I think too many fans want Vader to be Michael Myers, just brainlessly slaughtering everyone, where I think after the Prequels, him being a tragic figure is a heck of a lot more interesting.
His mother was tortured and possibly rapped by the tuskins…
I wouldn’t want to visit the place any time soon
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