Star Wars Obi-Wan Kenobi (tv series)
- Thread starter ghostryder
- Start date
CopperRevan
Master Member
That might be the funniest post i've seen yet on here...lol 40 yr-old padawan...hahah
Paul Andrew
Master Member
When I see the message she put into R2 I see her speaking as a professional adult, to another professional adult, and it doesn't need any implication of what happened in this series to be effective. She's not 10 when she leaves that message, and this series doesn't need to have any bearing on it at all.
Last edited:
HMSwolfe
Master Member
CopperRevan
Master Member
Right...because that's what happens when 2 people who have supposedly known each each as a child to an adult(who saved her life) speak to one another if they've had such an intimate connection and experience together...relate him to her father, not to herself? Talk as professionals to one another? If someone you were friends with saved your life is that how you would refer to them?Come on guys...If you all(you're all entitled to believe as you want) can convince yourselves of that hogwash then you should equally be able to convince yourselves that SHE NEVER KNEW HIM TO BEGIN WITH. Search your feelings and someone atleast be honest here and admit....for the last 45 years you all thought the same thing as most fans, probably all. Just because Disney writes something, automatically its believable? I honestly get the feeling like (I'll use a Disney reference) on BAD BATCH how the clones couldn't help themselves once order 66 was given. Even in the PT.
Disney: "Carry out order 66"
clones:"what is order 66?"
Disney: "Did you forget? we are reversing all logic and you must believe everything we are doing makes sense or you're not a real team player"
clones:"Yes master...we will obey...your ideas always make sense and we will further your kingdom by blurring the lines of truth and saying hot is cold and cold is hot"
Disney:"Kenobi left Luke to watch Leia"
clones: "agreed"
Disney:"Vader met Kenobi 3 times in between ROTS and ANH"
clones:"great idea, my Lord"
Disney:"The Emperor lived after ROTJ"
clones: "What the...!!...yes, Lord, whatever you say"
Disney:"This is the best one of all, we will create the Kenobi series but it will be actually about Reva. We know this will cause division and division is great for business because we can get both camps to watch it and debate about it endlessly as we keep raking in the millions and destroying the OT at the same time".
Clones:" Yes...i see, and we will always be right in our own eyes because you said we are"
If this series doesn't have ANY bearing on ANH at all then why even have it? If we all have to "not think" or think like a naive child in order for it to be believable then what does that actually say about the writing? At the very least it should line up...it doesn't.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
I work retail, for the same company my dad worked for, and often run into people he worked with that had met me as a child.
Despite the fact that my dad passed, on no occasion has any of them made reference to the 10 year old I used to be, nor have I spoken to them in any fashion except what would be considered professional at work.
I'll clarify my final statement, for what it's worth. This series doesn't need to have any bearing on that recorded message from Leia in order to work. It barely recontextualizes it as far as on screen canon is concerned.
Leia's childhood interaction with Kenobi might have been deeply important to her, but not to him. She knew him very briefly, and would naturally not assume that he remembers her in the same way that she remembers him.
If you met a celebrity once, when you were a child, and then encountered them as an adult, would you expect that celebrity to remember you because they briefly held your hand? Would you expect them to remember you like you are their long-time bestie?
Leia is not a self-absorbed child in ANH. She is a 19 year old Imperial Senator, and part of the Royal family on Alderaan. I would find it jarring, not to mention out of character, for Leia to address Kenobi any other way. Why would this famous Jedi Master from the clone wars, before Leia was ever born, single out this one little girl he once rescued at the behest of her adopted father?
Of course, WE know Leia's importance to Kenobi, but ANH Leia most certainly did not. To Leia, she must be one of countless people that the great Jedi rescued over the decades, before and after she ever existed. Hence, she addresses him like the politician that she is. Her father knew him first and longest, and presumably had much more of a relationship with Kenobi than she ever had. Even if they never held hands.
Not sure why this would be confusing or difficult to understand... except maybe to the younger generations that are too self-absorbed to get how grown-ups used to act, before the dark times...
Poor writing choices made in the ST have nothing to do with these interactions between Leia and Kenobi between the Kenobi show and ANH.
The bearing that this show has on ANH is simply filling in the blanks and further developing the characters, and in this case, those blanks were NOT created by Disney. They were created long before, when Lucas retconned Leia into being Luke's sister, and Vader/Anakin being their father.
So far, I think the show has done a pretty decent job of that. I don't think they messed with the canon concerning Leia's ANH message to Kenobi at all, and think people are grasping at straws to say that it is somehow contradictory.
I'm more concerned about the ANH Vader lines that need to be tied up, and hoping for something in Kenobi ep. 6 to address Vader's ROTJ line "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", which is still a blank that could use filling in. Presumably, in their final pre-ANH encounter, Kenobi will plea to Vader to turn away from the dark side, which is all we need.
I have my criticisms of the show, like pretty much all of Star Wars, but this just isn't one of them.
I was happy to see that the Red Letter Media guys had more positive things to say about Kenobi, as opposed to Doomcock and his outraged ilk:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Episodes 1-4 - re:View
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
If Disney were wiser, respectful of George Lucas's vision, history and spirit of the characters established in the OT they would not re-contextualize any aspect of the OT to any degree as it's completely unnecessary. It's especially unnecessary to do so to tell a captivating story about Obi-Wan during this time. Instead of displaying moderation in good tase their method is generally to go way overboard in an attempt to appeal to base levels of fandom in place of taking creative risks.
NakedMoleRat
Legendary Member
And yet we tune in every week…
CopperRevan
Master Member
Wait...now Kenobi is a celebrity to a 10yr old child? She ran from him...He gained her trust...he saved her...twice, once from a fall, once from storm troopers ( all in the context of this show). She ended up helping him and others to safety. Not to mention, comforted him through his " lack of faith " moments. He reprimanded that guy to get her a ladder to fix the problems of the hatch right in front of her due to " trust".
You're telling me after all that , if a " celebrity " did that for you , you would refer to them 9 yrs down the road as a title and not as a friend?
I highly doubt it. But like I said before. Before the thought of this show ever came out, did you believe Leia had a previous encounter with Obi-Wan after 1977's ANH? I heard NO fan clamoring for a plot hole to be examined further indicating that Leia met Obi at any point, nor did anyone question Vaders line to Obi-Wan about being the learner until ROTS( that was Lucas fault) because Obi-Wan actually left him not the other way around. We only knew that Obi-Wan was watching over Luke.
Anyways...I appreciate the discussion from everyone. We are just at an impasse with this...that's ok, hopefully all this debating will eventually lead to a better product...I just think at this point that is Disney's current plan but at some point its going to hurt them. What a shame.
Wolfsburg
Master Member
Looks like I've missed some stuff.
As mentioned above, I too have noticed the seams on Vader's tusk tubes. Pretty odd as from a production standpoint, they would only be necessary if the face plate needed to be separated from the neckpiece. When Vader is just walking around being Vader, there's no need for them. Lol!
If I had to rate the show thus far, it would probably be a 5ish for me. There's been nothing as bad as the Vespa hipsters but overall the show has felt pretty phoned-in and milquetoast. It has yet to justify its existence and has added nothing worthwhile to the canon, as far as I'm concerned. If they just had to do this show, I would've been more on board with Obi-wan leaving to go on a mission of redemption for Anakin, trying his best to bring him back over the course of several encounters, perhaps with flashbacks interspersed throughout. That would've jibed better with Vader's dialogue in RoTJ but sadly they decided to go in the bizarre and far less interesting direction they did, just rehashing the "Lone Wolf and Cub" formula they had already used for The Mandalorian.
As for Leia knowing Obi-wan, she clearly did not. Yes, nothing is spelled out but she is clearly not talking to an old friend but just some guy her dad knows. As for her "Ben Kenobi?!" exclamation on the Death Star, I always read that as her being confused, ie: "who is that?!" or "is that the same guy I was looking for?". On the tangent of the show having done the existing canon no favors, it now really makes no sense now why Bail sent Leia to go pick Obi-wan up when it is now clear Bail had multiple means to communicate directly with Obi-wan himself. All he had to do is tell him to book a transport and come to Alderaan. Unfortunately, Bail has now been portrayed as incompetent at best.
As mentioned above, I too have noticed the seams on Vader's tusk tubes. Pretty odd as from a production standpoint, they would only be necessary if the face plate needed to be separated from the neckpiece. When Vader is just walking around being Vader, there's no need for them. Lol!
If I had to rate the show thus far, it would probably be a 5ish for me. There's been nothing as bad as the Vespa hipsters but overall the show has felt pretty phoned-in and milquetoast. It has yet to justify its existence and has added nothing worthwhile to the canon, as far as I'm concerned. If they just had to do this show, I would've been more on board with Obi-wan leaving to go on a mission of redemption for Anakin, trying his best to bring him back over the course of several encounters, perhaps with flashbacks interspersed throughout. That would've jibed better with Vader's dialogue in RoTJ but sadly they decided to go in the bizarre and far less interesting direction they did, just rehashing the "Lone Wolf and Cub" formula they had already used for The Mandalorian.
As for Leia knowing Obi-wan, she clearly did not. Yes, nothing is spelled out but she is clearly not talking to an old friend but just some guy her dad knows. As for her "Ben Kenobi?!" exclamation on the Death Star, I always read that as her being confused, ie: "who is that?!" or "is that the same guy I was looking for?". On the tangent of the show having done the existing canon no favors, it now really makes no sense now why Bail sent Leia to go pick Obi-wan up when it is now clear Bail had multiple means to communicate directly with Obi-wan himself. All he had to do is tell him to book a transport and come to Alderaan. Unfortunately, Bail has now been portrayed as incompetent at best.
Last edited:
Paul Andrew
Master Member
There is definitely a part of my brain that played the varactyl call right after Reva's line lol
The celebrity analogy was an attempt to find a real life scenario that would be somewhat comparable to this fictional space fantasy scenario, involving a princess and a master space wizard. It was meant to be relatable, because you may have met a celebrity or two in your youth, but I'm pretty damn sure that you were never a princess who was rescued by a wizard. I could be wrong...
But sure, if this mythical celebrity was also a superhero who showed up out of nowhere to save me, and their celebrity was based upon their decades of famously doing such deeds, I would have to be pretty arrogant to think that this celebrity hero and I had some special relationship compared to the countless others for whom he is similarly a hero.
If I were to encounter said celebrity/hero again, I would not presume to be like "Yo Ben, it's me, your boy, SpyderDan" immediately before embracing him. I would absolutely assume that he does not remember me, and address him as respectfully as possible. If I'm lucky, I'll get the opportunity to find out whether he actually remembers me, but I would loathe actually pushing the point, and certainly would not want to impose upon the man.
Let's use a real world example, like Sully Sullenberger. 155 people who were aboard his aircraft are alive today, 13 years later, due to his heroic actions. If one of those survivors has the opportunity to meet him today, how would you expect them to address their savior? Like dear old friends, or "Capt. Sullenberger"? Anything other than the latter would be totally cringeworthy, unless they actually had kept in touch for the last 13 years and developed a friendly relationship that would warrant a more familiar rapport.
In the show, Leia did not believe Obi-wan was really a Jedi until he actually used the Force to catch her from her fall. She had been kidnapped, and was naturally suspicious, especially after seeing his face on a wanted poster holo.
Of course, Kenobi does end up proving himself to be the mythical Jedi hero. Even after that point, when Leia is captured the second time, and interrogated by Reva, child Leia is still going on about her father and the army he is going to send after her, rather than claiming to be besties with a surviving Jedi Master.
To Leia, Obi-wan is the hero that her father has sent to save her, and also just happens to be a genuine Jedi, just like the ones she has heard stories about, from a time before she was born.
Again, WE know the importance of Luke and Leia to Kenobi, but Leia does not understand any of that, and she still doesn't in ANH either. As the audience, WE make the connections with Obi-wan's references to Leia's mother, but Leia does not. WE know that Obi-wan was present for her birth, but she does not. WE know the significance of her parentage, but she does not, and Obi-wan does not give any of that away to her either.
All that ANH Leia knows of Kenobi is what she remembers from the short time they met when she was a child (maybe hours, over the course of a few days at most), and whatever her adopted father told her about him in the years since. And that is why I found it puzzling that some people think the show has somehow invalidated ANH Leia's lines, based on an interpretation of those lines meaning that they could never have previously met.
ANH Leia's "Ben Kenobi!" reaction in the Death Star detention block always seemed to me to be about her recognizing the name. That is the point where she springs up into action, when she was previously lounging in her cell, striking a pose, and being sassy with Luke. That's not a reaction of puzzlement, but then she immediately just dismisses it and jumps into action with no further questions.
And yes, this specific point has been up for debate between myself and my old childhood friends for 45 years now. I was always on the side of referring to the character as Obi-Wan, and it irked me as a kid that some of my friends insisted on calling him Ben. It was always their argument that Leia clearly recognized him as "Ben Kenobi" based on that one line, even back in the '70s.
As for Bail having a method to contact Kenobi again, we've already seen that holo comlink was wrecked and lost by Kenobi. What is Bail going to do, other than show up in person at the cave, looking for Obi-wan? Perhaps this is part of why ANH Old Ben no longer lives in the cave, but ends up with his place that we see in ANH instead.
There are still some blanks like that to be filled in the final episode. If it plays out the way it seems like it might, I hope we see Kenobi's renewed sense of his mission and destiny, watching over Luke. If there is an encounter with Reva and little Luke, that might be just what accomplishes that. Perhaps from that point on, Obi-wan will never leave Tatooine again, until he and Luke leave together in ANH.
All that said, I can still nitpick this show plenty.
- I don't care for the Reva character, at all. Hopefully she dies.
- Obi-wan doesn't look old enough. He seemed to have more gray in his hair in ROTS, and should have been a lot grayer by this point.
- Hayden looked WAY too old to portray AOTC-era Anakin, and Obi-wan's ***** hair looked like a bad wig in those flashbacks.
- I don't like that Bail just showed up at Obi-wan's secret cave, unannounced. Guess he can track that holo comlink? Did we miss the Tantive IV, parked outside the cave, or did he catch a speeder taxi from Anchorhead?
- Not a fan of the lightsabers as glow-bats, that take multiple swings to take out a stormtrooper. Looks like they played too much Jedi: Fallen Order. Would have been cool to see a bunch of limbs flying and decapitations, but all we got was the one stormtrooper who bisected himself by falling on the laser gate.
- Don't like the general ineffectiveness of multitudes of stormtroopers with blasters drawn at point-blank range, especially in context with clonetroopers having successfully surprised and murdered so many Jedi in similar circumstances after order 66.
- Vader's weird blue marble throne could have been a lot better.
None of that ruins the show for me, though. I'm still happy to have it, and it scratches a lifelong itch for me.
Personally, I like this story, and what it does to tie together the other movies and shows. I really like the portrayal of Vader. The show isn't perfect, by any means, but I'm glad to have it. My whole family is. Just today, my 11 year old was sad to hear that it was only Sunday, because she wishes it was Wednesday, so we could all watch Kenobi together. That's priceless, to me. Oh, to be 11 again...
I think it is the other way around. At least how it is presented in ANH. She is the celebrity (being a princess and a senator) , and he's just someone who served her father (as a general).
She does not seem to know that he is/was a jedi in ANH ... if they wanted his help because of his jedi abilities she should have addressed him as a jedi instead of as a general.
Still, because of the circumstances she's begging him for help desperately. She's basically betting on his loyalty and compassion, mentioning how he served her father, how this is very important for the rebellion, etc. I really find it hard to believe that if he saved her life 9 years ago she won't use that to strengthen her message. Like "You saved me from the empire when I was kidnapped, now I need your help again. .. blah .. blah... Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you are my only hope"
ScourgiousJinx
Master Member
So not caring about a main antagonist/character (who has a lot of screen time and who arguably the show is actually about) to the point of hoping she dies is a "nitpick?" WOW. I mean good god what would have to be wrong with the show for it to be a legit criticism?
robstyle
Master Member
Did anyone see Executive Decision in the theater, and when Steven Segal went the way of the dodo, did the entire theater pop with applause? The theater popped when I was there, and that's the same reaction I heard in my mind when Reva was run through. But we all know she will be back to end the series...
Point taken. Call it a legitimate criticism instead of a nitpick if you want. I don't see the terms being mutually exclusive. Hard to think of anything I like that I could not also legitimately criticize. Top Gun: Maverick immediately comes to mind, and I enjoyed it quite a bit, despite it being easy to criticize on multiple levels.
If it was Disney's intention for Reva to be some exciting new character, it fell completely flat with me.
However, I was never in it because of any interest in that character in the first place. I'm there for Kenobi and Vader. If she just ends up being a throwaway plot device for this one series, that's fine by me. The character hasn't ruined the show for me yet, though.
If they re-edited Kenobi at the last minute, as has been rumored, to have her survive for either her own spin-off or extending Kenobi to a "second season", that could be a travesty. I doubt any of that is actually the case, but we'll see. I'll reserve my judgement until such an unlikelihood actually occurs.
Getting more screen time does not a "main antagonist" make, however. I find it hard to argue that Vader is not the main antagonist here, and Vader is getting much more screen time than I dared to hope for anyway, and is being handled brilliantly, in my opinion. Reva is just a disposable tool, being played by both sides, and that fits my disinterest in the character just fine.
Nobody in my household seems to like her either, but it isn't causing any outrage or loss of interest in the show. My 10 year old pumped his fists and exclaimed "Yes!" when Vader stabbed her with her own lightsaber. Was he supposed to get attached to the character, and expect her to defeat Vader somehow? Is his sister supposed to want to dress up as Reva for Halloween? Is that a requirement for a "good" show or movie, to have all antagonists, primary or not, be likeable characters that you care about?
Regardless of any Disney agenda for the Reva character, the show seems to be working just fine anyway. That character's unlikability might wreck Disney's merchandizing efforts to sell Reva action figures, but I'm still getting the Obi-Wan Kenobi show that I hoped for despite her, if not because of her.
