Star Wars EU - the things it got really wrong

[KrangPrime]

Countless comic and novel stories of good jedi trying out the dark side just to see what it's like. "Know your enemy, right? It's cool, I can come back". I say again, please.


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I also wasn't sure what to make of the whole 'there is no light side, dark side....just the force' concept that vergere tried to instil in jacen.

it's an interesting idea.....but not sure if I really buy it ;o).

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I actually think Vergere was on the right track. I know what George was getting at with "the Light Side is the only true aspect of the Force -- the Dark Side is just a corruption of that", but he kinda sucked at elaborating on that. The Force seems to be a bit like the Phoenix in Marvel Comics -- a manifestation of life-energy. As such, it is anentropic -- power of creation and building. To twist it upon itself to accelerate entropy, to destroy and tear down and harm, is certainly a debasement of what it is, but the whole Light Side/Dark Side thing I call out as a false dichotomy. Passion isn't bad. Anger isn't bad. Love isn't bad. I've said before the Jedi and Sith were each so focused on not being the other, they went to unhealthy and unsustainable extremes away from what they perceived the other to be. Jedi shouldn't have been afraid to feel -- they just needed to be mindful of their feelings and not let them control them. Meanwhile, wallowing so deep in rage and passion and lust could have no outcome but to warp the values and perceptions of the Sith. Excess and asceticism are equally "bad" ways to approach interaction with the Force. One thing the EU did right, I think, was its portrayal of Jedi of thousands of years ago who elt and laughed and loved and married and had families, etc.

One thing that always bugged me about the Prequels is how no one seemed to bat an eye at Luke's Force ability being a family trait, when apparently Jedi aren't supposed to have families. Funny. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan mentioned that when discussing Luke's dad...

--Jonah

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Out of the five comic series and three novels that are out so far, none of them are anywhere near as bad as the even the mediocre offerings in the EU. I find the Princess Leia comic and the Tarkin novel much more readable than most of the New Jedi Order, let alone the Black Fleet Crisis, The Crystal Star, or the Dark Nest Trilogy.

--Jonah

Those are pretty much some of the worst of the EU novels though. I'm still not sure if I will read any of the new stuff. It depends on whether TFA is good or not. I'm still holding them to something as good as the X-Wing novels (Rogue Squadron! - sorry had to :lol ), Republic Commando, and Darth Bane novels. Those are the only ones I really liked.

Why? Just because they're canon doesn't mean you can't just ignore them if you want, just like people are free to include the old EU in their own head canon if they want to. Is there some sort of rule that states that just because it's canon you have to read it? Chances are that most, if not all, of the novels won't have any real effect on any of the movies and all they'll do is fill things out and fill in the blanks left by the movies.

I meant that before you could ignore them in what you think of as canon. Now they will be on the same level of canon as the movies. So yeah you don't have to read it, but it's part of the universe.

that was the whole tragic time and reign of Kevin J Anderson terror. his works always read like 'what fans want to happen' fan fiction.

I've read EVERY book in the EU. minus the horror novels, and the really really young reader novels.

The young jedi knight books where a bit goofy.

The Crystal star is generally regarded as the worst star wars novel written, I think.

The whole plot point of lea's kids getting constantly kidnapped wore thin fast.

The killing of Mara Jade was un needed. poor luke couldn't get any hapiness.

I only quoted part, but I agree with all of that post!

 

[Solo4114]

Those are pretty much some of the worst of the EU novels though. I'm still not sure if I will read any of the new stuff. It depends on whether TFA is good or not. I'm still holding them to something as good as the X-Wing novels (Rogue Squadron! - sorry had to :lol ), Republic Commando, and Darth Bane novels. Those are the only ones I really liked.



I meant that before you could ignore them in what you think of as canon. Now they will be on the same level of canon as the movies. So yeah you don't have to read it, but it's part of the universe.



I only quoted part, but I agree with all of that post!

"Officially" it's part of the universe.

But "Head Canon" trumps all. I learned this the hard way with the prequels. My "head canon" version of the prequels is friggin' awesome.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

TI'm still holding them to something as good as the X-Wing novels (Rogue Squadron! - sorry had to :lol ),

Jerk.

Republic Commando, and Darth Bane novels. Those are the only ones I really liked.

How many of the old EU did you read? I do strongly recommend Brian Daley's Han Solo books, Matt Stover's books (Shatterpoint and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor), Tatooine Ghost, Kenobi, Planet of Twilight, and Arron Allston's and Karen Traviss' offerings in the Legacy of the Force series. Not to mention the very Old Republic comics -- the various Tales of the Jedi comics and Knights of the Old Republic. Plus a few from the movie era -- Jango Fett: Open Seasons and the Marvel comics involving Fenn Shysa (#68 mainly, but also #s 99 and 100).

--Jonah

 

[AJTaliesen]

"Officially" it's part of the universe.

But "Head Canon" trumps all. I learned this the hard way with the prequels. My "head canon" version of the prequels is friggin' awesome.

I was going to post almost this exact sentiment using the same example. In any case, I agree. Head Canon beats all.

 

[Riceball]

I meant that before you could ignore them in what you think of as canon. Now they will be on the same level of canon as the movies. So yeah you don't have to read it, but it's part of the universe.

So what's really changed, aside from that there's no varying levels canon? You can still choose to ignore whatever you don't like just as before, there's nothing forcing you to acknowledge that any of the ancillary material even exists much less accept what happens in them. It's not like the movies are going to have a narrator or subtitles saying, "Please see such and such book by so and so to see more details or what led up to this event". Things that happen in the additional products like books and TV shows may or may not show up in any of the movies but unless you don't read them or watch the show(s) you won't know that they originate from there so it won't matter.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Like how Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the One-Shots are canon, but the films don't reference any of the characters or events therein (except in the most oblique ways). There's too much to spend screen time on without having to sidebar for ten minutes to explain, for instance, how Coulson' s alive again. Ditto Star Wars. There's a lot of stuff to fill in and expand on that you can skip if it's something you don't care about. The main beats will be covered in the films. Likely there will be references to stuff from Rebels and the comics and the books, but they won't be "put the movie on pause and go check this source so you know what the hell they're talking about" sorts of references. I mean, we made it through the OT without knowing anything about Kessel apart from smugglers go there and they mine "spice", no idea what gundarks or nerfs or Bothans look like, and so on.

--Jonah

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Jerk.

How many of the old EU did you read? I do strongly recommend Brian Daley's Han Solo books, Matt Stover's books (Shatterpoint and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor), Tatooine Ghost, Kenobi, Planet of Twilight, and Arron Allston's and Karen Traviss' offerings in the Legacy of the Force series. Not to mention the very Old Republic comics -- the various Tales of the Jedi comics and Knights of the Old Republic. Plus a few from the movie era -- Jango Fett: Open Seasons and the Marvel comics involving Fenn Shysa (#68 mainly, but also #s 99 and 100).

--Jonah

I think I read almost all of them. I wasn't into the comics as much so aside from the Rogue Squadron comics (seriously :lol), Jango comic, and the Mara Jade TPB I missed most of them. I love Aaron Allston, but he lost me with the dude with lightsabers coming out of his knees in the NJO book he wrote.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Yeah, I read the first three or four NJO books, got bored, came back for Dark Journey, couldn't be bothered with the rest until The Unifying Force. I do also like the e-book Boba Fett: A Practical Man, which is set right before.

I do highly recommend snagging some of the Tales of the Jedi and Knights of the Old Republic TPBs. And Tag & Bink.

And for what it's worth, I love the X-Wing novels and comics. I just hate the concept of Rogue Squadron.

--Jonah

 

[KrangPrime]

I just got done with heir to the jedi. Only 4 or so more booksto go.

The problem with luke is that the writers don't seem to want him to have happiness. if this is one of the books under the new regime and not the classics moniker...Nakari would have been a great substitute to Mara Jade if she no longer exists in this universe. yet.....what do they do? they kill her off in the last few pages. all just to give luke a taste of the dark side.

that was a relationship I wouldn't have mind seeing continue... sigh.

Hope Razors edge is a little more uplifting.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Heir to the Jedi is canon, yes. It's also set right after Star Wars, so the time frame is off for him to have a relationship with anyone but Leia (I know, I know). Plus, George himself seems to have been against him having a "happily ever after". It is George's assertion that, post-Jedi, "Luke doesn't get married".

--Jonah

 

[KrangPrime]

huh.. never heard that before. in that case, it kind of makes you NOT want to root for luke as a character. if his jedi are supposed to be different than the jedi of old, where they CAN have relationships and show emotion and focus on family......wtfudge is the point of doing that if luke can't have any of it?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

We don't know yet for sure... All the new post-Jedi stuff is going to start coming out soon. We have thirty years to fill in. It just seems from TFA that he's unattached. Given what George said, it seems likely he has been for the duration, but we don't have all the data yet.

--Jonah

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

So was that the reason everyone says he hated Mara because he didn't want Luke to get married? I hope they don't have Luke following the same path as the Old Republic Jedi and not marrying.

 

[Solo4114]

Heir to the Jedi is canon, yes. It's also set right after Star Wars, so the time frame is off for him to have a relationship with anyone but Leia (I know, I know). Plus, George himself seems to have been against him having a "happily ever after". It is George's assertion that, post-Jedi, "Luke doesn't get married".

--Jonah

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: particularly after the Disney sale, I do not care what George Lucas says or said. The man has been so inconsistent in his statements and what he put on the screen over the years that I don't think he has a true, coherent vision of his own universe. I think the story was a living thing for him, that he changed his mind about periodically, and frankly I don't think he's quite the master storyteller he's been held up as. I think he's a good core idea guy, but he needs other people to rein him in.

More to the point, I don't think what George said or thought or even wrote down once on a yellow legal pad is what's best for Star Wars as a story anymore. I'm glad he's basically out of the creative process. Fine to generally respect what he did before (as in, not retcon/reboot it -- never mind that the man is infamous for, himself, retconning various points), but beyond a general respect for what already exists....screw what George says. It doesn't mean spit.

So was that the reason everyone says he hated Mara because he didn't want Luke to get married? I hope they don't have Luke following the same path as the Old Republic Jedi and not marrying.

In my opinion, he didn't like her for probably the same reason he didn't like most of what Zahn wrote: because he didn't think of it himself.

The man spent his life trying to exert total control over his artistic works, I think, to the point where even good ideas from other people were dismissed because they were from other people. I'm not saying Mara is the best thing from the EU (I don't think she is), but I don't think George wanted or was interested in anyone telling him what to do, even if it was a good idea. He had his own sense of what he wanted (which, again, could change from moment to moment), and he'd be damned if he'd let anyone else suggest he do otherwise.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: particularly after the Disney sale, I do not care what George Lucas says or said.

Hell, I didn't care about a lot of what George said after about the mid-'90s. But what matters is what the folks LFL care about. The fact that they're keeping the Prequels and Clone Wars in the canon shows that they care more about what George thought than I do. They've shown a desire to "do right" by him and generally respect his [most recent] vision of Star Wars. This includes the fan challenging his generally well-known lack of concern for EU facts by asking him who Luke's wife was, only to receive that answer. So given what we've seen of Luke so far in the TFA stuff, I'm going to presume that's what LFL went with unless and until they show me something different.

The man has been so inconsistent in his statements and what he put on the screen over the years that I don't think he has a true, coherent vision of his own universe. I think the story was a living thing for him, that he changed his mind about periodically, and frankly I don't think he's quite the master storyteller he's been held up as. I think he's a good core idea guy, but he needs other people to rein him in.

That's exactly, almost word for word, what I've been saying for years. Hell, Star Wars and Empire were only as good as they were because he deferred to others' opinions. Jedi is the first one where he exerted full creative control, and the director and writer ultimately deferred to him.

More to the point, I don't think what George said or thought or even wrote down once on a yellow legal pad is what's best for Star Wars as a story anymore.

Ironically, it's what he wrote down on yellow legal pads back in the early '70s that I think he should have stuck with, barring the most minor of revisions. The more he tweaked, the less organic it's felt.

Fine to generally respect what he did before (as in, not retcon/reboot it -- never mind that the man is infamous for, himself, retconning various points), but beyond a general respect for what already exists....screw what George says. It doesn't mean spit.

Enh... I'd go so far as to say it's fine to re-edit/re-make everything from Jedi on, due to contradictions in those later works to the content of the first two films. And use as the excuse to retcon "George did it, too." Actually, it could justifiably be called a correction or restoration -- ironing out the contradictions that crept in in Jedi and then charged in in the Prequels, uncompressing the timeline to what it was when the OT was being made, etc.

The man spent his life trying to exert total control over his artistic works, I think, to the point where even good ideas from other people were dismissed because they were from other people. I'm not saying Mara is the best thing from the EU (I don't think she is), but I don't think George wanted or was interested in anyone telling him what to do, even if it was a good idea. He had his own sense of what he wanted (which, again, could change from moment to moment), and he'd be damned if he'd let anyone else suggest he do otherwise.

Given the entirety of the EU (which I've been present for every step as it's unfolded), I think Mara Jade is one of the better elements... Not always handled right, but then neither were the canon characters always. But yeah, he always reserved the right to overwrite anything in the EU. Frankly, it's kind of amazing that he included Coruscant and Aayla Secura.

--Jonah

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I did like Mara, I just wished they kept her as a Jedi and not Luke's wife. The two Zahn books (Choices of One, forget the name of the other) were pretty good.

 

[KrangPrime]

the other thing that bothered me about Heir to the Jedi was all the earthly references... dogs, toast... and one or two other things. it's like the author didn't want to bother coming up with new names.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

You mean like the horses and hounds and falcons and hawks and slugs and bats and manticores and chimaerae and gorgons and...?

--Jonah