Star Wars EU - the things it got really wrong

[Solo4114]

I agree somewhat, but my take is that the Force was behind all of these things and that's why things played out. I wouldn't mind seeing Coruscant pop up in the new movies because that's a planet that is really interesting in my opinion.

I'll give you "It was the Force" but only up to a point. There's a whole lot in the PT that ends up being due to "the Force" which seems...silly. The Force shouldn't be independently moving 3PO and R2 back to Luke in ANH when Anakin freaking built them. That's not "the Force" unless "the Force" is a lazy, bearded be-flanneled writer... The stuff with, like, Yoda and Chewie being buds, or the written-but-cut scene with young Greedo, that's not "The Force." That's just lame fan service.

Yeah it's a totally different planet. I posted way earlier in one of these threads that when the SW Battlefront game details were coming out that they said Jakku was the scene of a massive battle right after Endor. That's why there are crashed ships all over the surface.

...

I agree and I hope some of people doing the new SW projects look through the old EU if they are looking for a certain kind of location. There are a lot of interesting places rather than just deciding they have the ability to make something up so they'd do that.

As for the covers, that is the one and only thing I think the New Jedi Order series did well, particularly the Japanese covers. They actually aged the characters and have them look different.

Glad to know it's a different planet (although I don't want to know anything else. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some locations, technology, and concepts transfer over from the EU. As a kind of "sourcebook" or a "campaign setting," the EU had some decent stuff. As actual stories...there's a lot of chaff with a few specs of wheat.

*snip*

Well said. Superpowers and superweapons cheapen the tale. It's similar to Bond having a "get out of predicament" gadget in his movies. Like, this aerosol can of spider pheromones is totally useless under virtually all circumstances...except for when you get thrown into a pit of spiders in the villain's lair. Ultimately, it's just lazy writing and a lack of understanding of what makes for real drama and excitement.

The "size matters not" isn't the point. Some force users are more powerful than others, but their power isn't unlimited. More to the point, in the end, their power is entirely beside the point. I mean, Yoda can toss starships and heavy machinery around, as can Palpatine. But in the end, it wasn't Luke's strength in the force that wins the day. Its his faith in the goodness lying dormant within his father and his forgiveness that opens just small enough of a window to let Vader find that spark of goodness and do something important with it. The force doesn't solve the central problem in the OT. Love, hope, and optimism do.

I'm annoyed I can only 'like' this post once...



Except go back further. "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force". I like to think -- whatever limitations one does have -- that he was talking about more than telekinetically choking Motti out from across the room.

--Jonah

Yeah, I mean, the force does make you powerful. But I also think Vader's statement is, to some extent, his own "devotion to that ancient religion." It doesn't mean you can rip planets apart with the force if you really believe you can.

 

[dbuck]

Many great posts in this thread.

Despite many problems with the books I read most of the EU, even the incredibly stupid Vong war which lasted something like 25 books. Finally I got to Coruscant Nights, and that stopped me cold. Haven't read an EU book since.

I always held out hope there were little gems hidden in the mass quantities of the EU. There were some here and there, but overall the great majority are utterly forgettable, mental bubble gum to occupy some idle time.

 

[Solo4114]

Many great posts in this thread.

Despite many problems with the books I read most of the EU, even the incredibly stupid Vong war which lasted something like 25 books. Finally I got to Coruscant Nights, and that stopped me cold. Haven't read an EU book since.

I always held out hope there were little gems hidden in the mass quantities of the EU. There were some here and there, but overall the great majority are utterly forgettable, mental bubble gum to occupy some idle time.

Yeah, but they're, like, mental bubblegum at the same level of quality as Bazooka Joe, and their stories are generally about as engaging as a Bazooka Joe wrapper.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

For those who miss it, Luke visits Nar Shaddaa in the current issue of the Star Wars comic.

--Jonah

 

[Riceball]

I'm thinking now that part of the problem with the EU is that it was a shared universe with many different authors writing books, possibly too many. So what happens is you get authors competing against each other (whether consciously or subconsciously) and constantly trying to top and outdo each other. So if one author has Jedi doing something rather outlandish in one of their books then another author then feels that it's not only ok for a Jedi, or Jedis, doing outlandish things in their book but not to be outdone by another author they have their Jedi doing even more outlandish things. It also probably didn't help that there was no central control or leadership in the EU and so authors could write all sorts of dren with no one to tell them that they're really pushing things too far.

 

[Solo4114]

That's probably part of it, but I think much of it also can be attributed to trying to "recreate" rather than "create." In other words, too many authors wanted to hit too many touchstones for what they were writing that would harken back to the films everyone loved, and it ended up recycling similar points and character beats and such, instead of progressing the characters or exploring them in more depth. Although, to be fair, the books were often fairly light on characterization, and far more plot driven in the worst way.

To me, it ended up coming across as just so much myopia, which is a shame because of how much interesting, inventive stuff was introduced.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I agree about the Force powers. I would have actually liked to have seen the document Lucas made for the Prequels that would show animators and others the limits of a Jedi power. I remember reading that it detailed how high they could jump/fall, the amount of distance they could use Force speed, how many of a type of enemy (Battledroid, Superbattledroid, human, etc.) one Jedi could handle, etc.

I agree with a lot of points, I just don't think that we're going to see a change just because it's a new EU. Well other than now the bad stories will have the same weight as the movies.

 

[JediG60racer]

I'm still waiting for the EU/BSG/ST crossover, where the Jedi encounter Janeway traveling back in time (AGAIN!?!?!) to stop the Cylons from meeting the Borg and enslaving the human race, and the Empire ends up intercepting the Pegasus before it reunited with Galactica and the ragtag fugitive fleet but strangely enough, because it's an alternate universe, the Narada intervenes to repel a fleet of Star Destroyers before encountering the Klingons, and Admiral Cain is murdered by Baltar, who convinces Caprica Six to lure Han Solo to a Base Star and ....

...oh never mind. Most of these EU books are just well funded fan fiction at this point. I can imagine my own.

 

[Solo4114]

I agree with a lot of points, I just don't think that we're going to see a change just because it's a new EU. Well other than now the bad stories will have the same weight as the movies.

I wouldn't be so sure. The story group is in charge now. There's a LOT more centralized direction now, instead of just random authors doing what they want. Ultimately, I think that's for the best, since it'll maintain a level of consistency that was sorely lacking.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

That's not new though. Ever since they did the New Jedi Order (at least, maybe earlier) novels that were doing the exact same thing, and that series sucked.

 

[Solo4114]

That's not new though. Ever since they did the New Jedi Order (at least, maybe earlier) novels that were doing the exact same thing, and that series sucked.

Different story group, though. Honestly, if Rebels has been an indication of what we can expect quality-wise, I think we're in for some generally solid stuff. At worst, it'll be mediocre. That's a damnsight better than the pre-Disney EU.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo, both members of the group, were there for years. If the preview of Aftermath is any indication it's worse because it was bad and showed the author had little knowledge of the SW universe.

With the new storygroup, you're just going to have very well coordinated bad stories that will now be canon. Just like the NJO and the stupid Vong story.

 

[Solo4114]

Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo, both members of the group, were there for years. If the preview of Aftermath is any indication it's worse because it was bad and showed the author had little knowledge of the SW universe.

With the new storygroup, you're just going to have very well coordinated bad stories that will now be canon. Just like the NJO and the stupid Vong story.

So, here's the thing. You say it was written by someone who clearly doesn't understand Star Wars. I say we probably aren't in a good position to judge, given the purpose of the novel itself as a tie-in to The Force Awakens. I haven't read the preview, so I can't really say one way or the other, but I'd bet that the goal is more to act as a ramp into the new stuff than a bridge back to the old, if that makes sense. When the new film comes out, I expect we'll be in a better place to judge how well the book captures the feel of Star Wars, given that Star Wars will include the OT, the PT, Clone Wars, Rebels, and TFA.

And let's not forget that the Story Group is also at least partially responsible for Rebels, which in my opinion has been absolutely top-notch and captured a vibe that's been missing from the franchise for years. So, we've got one confirmed success and one question-mark.

Lastly, at least for the hardest of the hardcore fans (folks like us), I think it's really easy to lose sight of how much the old EU/Legends brand has affected our collective sense of what "is" Star Wars. And that's part of the reason why it had to go. The old EU was scattershot both in quality and in terms of concepts and stories and such. That inconsistency meant that people could (and likely did) disregard this or that bit of the story just because they didn't like it and didn't want to incorporate it into their "head canon." The goal of the new Story Group and LFL in general is to avoid that, I think. They want everyone incorporating everything, because if we do, that means they're doing a good job overall.

But like I said, we had 30+ years of Legends/old EU to seep into our brains. Even if we can logically say "Right. None of that happened," there's still the underlying feeling of the old stuff that we may want to hold on to. So, new stuff will necessarily not "fit" that old "feeling."

I think what we can expect moving forward is a general level of quality or at least consistency in terms of the storytelling, and that'll be because they're tying all of this stuff in to continually-produced films and TV shows. With the Legends brand, that was less of a concern, given that there was less product being made. What I expect is that the new films will be a hell of a lot better than the old EU stuff, and that, in turn, will force the new books, comics, etc. into a much more limited continuity.

That doesn't mean every story will be written well, nor that it will all capture the characters' voices as effectively, but what you won't see is something like Dorsk-81 shoving an entire fleet into another star system through the power of the Force and then exploding because he burned himself out. Why? Simple: the films will dictate the limits of the universe, and the extra stuff will have to color inside those lines.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I'm not saying all that might be true. I just mean that just because this is all new, it doesn't get rid of bad SW novels/games/etc. It's just now the bad are official and you can't just ignore it like the old EU.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Out of the five comic series and three novels that are out so far, none of them are anywhere near as bad as the even the mediocre offerings in the EU. I find the Princess Leia comic and the Tarkin novel much more readable than most of the New Jedi Order, let alone the Black Fleet Crisis, The Crystal Star, or the Dark Nest Trilogy.

--Jonah

 

[AJTaliesen]

I've been rereading some of the good (IMO) SW novels and there's a couple of things that bugged me because they don't seem realistic (even for SW...). So this would not necessarily be plotlines, but technology, weapons, etc.

Okay the things bugging me are the authors talking about Stormtroopers (or people in the armor) sweating profusely. I guess they think that talking to Stormtrooper costumers is equivalent to real armor. It's not. Real armor would have temperature controls to keep them cool in the bodysuit and armor. Yeah you would probably sweat if you were really exerting yourself, but not from just standing around in it. Republic Commando got this right when they said the armor did in fact have that system and saying they were in a self contained environment in their armor.

The next is the stupid, ridiculous tongue switch to activate the helmet mic. Really. That is so dumb that I can't even believe that was the first thing someone came up with when they were trying to figure out how Stormtroopers activate their external mic to talk. It would most likely be activated when you started talking. It's even dumber that Mike Stackpole (which is one of the better SW authors) said TIE pilot helmets have this. You have a ton of controls in a fighter to turn on a mic to transmit.

I had another, but totally forgot so I'll have to try and remember. Add your own.

Never read any of the books, but ever since I was a kid I just assumed that storm trooper armor had environmental controls. Otherwise, there's really no point to even wearing them. They obviously don't protect from weapons fire.

 

[Solo4114]

I'm not saying all that might be true. I just mean that just because this is all new, it doesn't get rid of bad SW novels/games/etc. It's just now the bad are official and you can't just ignore it like the old EU.

That's a fair point. Mine is more that, based on what I've seen so far, I think we're in for generally better quality, and certainly better consistency with the films. But that doesn't mean it'll all be guaranteed to be objectively good.

 

[Riceball]

I'm not saying all that might be true. I just mean that just because this is all new, it doesn't get rid of bad SW novels/games/etc. It's just now the bad are official and you can't just ignore it like the old EU.

Why? Just because they're canon doesn't mean you can't just ignore them if you want, just like people are free to include the old EU in their own head canon if they want to. Is there some sort of rule that states that just because it's canon you have to read it? Chances are that most, if not all, of the novels won't have any real effect on any of the movies and all they'll do is fill things out and fill in the blanks left by the movies.

 

[Solo4114]

Why? Just because they're canon doesn't mean you can't just ignore them if you want, just like people are free to include the old EU in their own head canon if they want to. Is there some sort of rule that states that just because it's canon you have to read it? Chances are that most, if not all, of the novels won't have any real effect on any of the movies and all they'll do is fill things out and fill in the blanks left by the movies.

Yeah, and that's the real thing to remember. In the past, the EU almost existed instead of there being movies or because there were no movies. It was able to do what it liked because nothing said it couldn't. Now you have a commitment to keep producing films, which will in turn circumscribe what authors and other creators can do with their own "EU" material. The movies will likely cover a lot more ground, as will things like the Rebels cartoon. That, in turn, will limit what's possible in the comic books and novels. Authors may still write poor or unentertaining books here and there, but the way the universe works within those books will (or should) be consistent with what we see on screen, rather than deviating wildly from it.

 

[KrangPrime]

I forgot which book or series of books it was in, but that whole Sun Crusher thing was just incredibly stupid.

that was the whole tragic time and reign of Kevin J Anderson terror. his works always read like 'what fans want to happen' fan fiction.

I've read EVERY book in the EU. minus the horror novels, and the really really young reader novels.

The young jedi knight books where a bit goofy.

The Crystal star is generally regarded as the worst star wars novel written, I think.

The whole plot point of lea's kids getting constantly kidnapped wore thin fast.

The killing of Mara Jade was un needed. poor luke couldn't get any hapiness.

The killing of anakin (a character you hardly got to know) was un needed.... and quite frankly, any book after Chewbacca's death was just a testament to darkness and depression. it went from being a fun action adventure series to terminator 2; judgment day in a never ending series of books where just about everyone died. killing off two of the solo kids to boot and giving jaina that stupid sword of the jedi monicker that meant nothing and never had any real follow through.

one bright spot was jaina and jagged fel having a relationship. luke and mara evolving into a couple. talon kardde being introduced. thrawn. the X Wind Series of novels and Admiral Dalla (who ended in a really stupid plotline with her as the head of the reborn alliance government, exiling luke skywalker for no reason at all)...

And Abeloth was the worst STAR WARS VILLAIN EVER. she had no set powers...and basically was whatever the writer wanted her to be at the moment. even bringing a forgotten luke skywalker love interest, callista out of nowhere.


I'd say about 50% of the EU was good and worth reading again... Other books, like the Dark Nest Trilogy are just plain weird and easily forgotten.


right now i'm reading the last of the 'classic' eu universe. I'm on heir to the jedi now. tarkin, scoundrels, rebels, and one or two others are also in my to read list. just havn't gotten around to them. after that, I think i'm done for a while.

I invested way too much in the classic EU universe to start all over again...