Star Trek Voyager

[Jeyl]

Screw the people who died when Voyager was pulled into the Delta Quadrant or who died along the way, Seven of Nine was more important to Janeway.

When I saw a teaser with that clip inserted, I thought oh, my god. They finally made them a couple! No freaking way Janeway would put so much emphasis on just one of her crew over so many others. Especially when she doesn't even wear a bloody uniform. But nope. In fact, I think they threw in that very "OUT OF NOWHERE" Chakotay/Seven nonsense in just to quell any ideas that this could happen. It's a time travel cliché of someone going back in time to save a loved one.

Ugh. 9 times out of 10 Voyager, you always played it safe. Endgame is an almost perfect example on playing it safe 10 out of 10 times for the ending.

Also, what a god awful ending. We made it back home. Hooray! Now we're returning to Earth, THE END. What... that's it? You're going to end this seven year long journey with no closure? What about the ceremony? What about the funeral reception to all those who lost their lives? What about the Federation inquiry?

Oh, yeah. Now I remember. This was a vague rehash of "All Good Things". You see, All Good Things was an episode that killed two birds with one stone by not technically doing anything. Instead of ending a show with our characters coming to some grand closure and possibly showcasing what comes after it, they write these series finals that involve time travel so that we already see what the future will be like yet we can still end with a reset switch. We don't need to see what happens to them afterwards because we already have. Sure, it will leave with a sense that everything might be different, but there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the crew behind the show didn't just didn't care.

I remember when startrek.com was still the place to go to for Trek info that they would have a frequent FAQ session with writers, producers and the actors. One fan asked why they ended it on such a literal note and not follow up with what happened later. The answer was the part typcial "We're proud of the final product" but with a most telling detail. They said that if they were to continue the story, that would require several episodes more in order to do so. Yes, the idea of finding out what happened to our crew we have been together with for seven years was thrown out because it would have involved more work. And coming from the group who greenlit an episode where an individual person evolves into a reptile, it makes sense.

 

[AJK001]

Oh, yeah. Now I remember. This was a vague rehash of "All Good Things". You see, All Good Things was an episode that killed two birds with one stone by not technically doing anything. Instead of ending a show with our characters coming to some grand closure and possibly showcasing what comes after it, they write these series finals that involve time travel so that we already see what the future will be like yet we can still end with a reset switch. We don't need to see what happens to them afterwards because we already have. Sure, it will leave with a sense that everything might be different, but there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the crew behind the show didn't just didn't care.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you about "All Good Things", even though I did like it, but part of the reason they didn't do any real closure was that they were already working on Generations. If you read some of the actor interviews about it, they said they had a couple of days off between shooting the last episode of TNG and starting the movie.

 

[Jeyl]

I'm not completely disagreeing with you about "All Good Things", even though I did like it, but part of the reason they didn't do any real closure was that they were already working on Generations. If you read some of the actor interviews about it, they said they had a couple of days off between shooting the last episode of TNG and starting the movie.

I should have been more careful when talking about All Good Things, because for what it is, it is a fantastic episode. I like that even though it's primarily Picard focused, you can tell his admiration and care for his crew grows, especially at the end. I only wish Generations showed more of that instead of having Picard shouting to his first officer on the bridge barely five minutes of the crew's introduction.

The problem I have isn't so much the episode, but the formula that the creators used again and again as the series final for everything. Well, except for Deep Space Nine (I <3 You DS9!). Endgame was terrible at this since they used the exact same props, ships and even costumes from All Good Things. It was like they couldn't think of a comprehensive way to end the series so they just lifted stuff from All Good Things thinking that would make a great final. No thank you.

Even with a lukewarm ending like that, THEY DID IT AGAIN WITH ENTERPRISE! I still remember Brannon Braga openly saying "This is going to be a valentine's gift to the fans" all over the net like this was going to be an ending that all Star Trek fans would be proud of. You want to know how bad this ending was? I never liked Enterprise and only watched four whole episodes, and even I hated "These are the Voyages" with a passion. I actually felt sorry for the fans who enjoyed Enterprise for being given such an insult of an ending. It's like if Joss Whedon made an episode of Firefly for his fans, but instead made a new episode of Buffy that just references the TV show Firefly. So you get a new episode of Buffy, but it's still billed as "Firefly's Final Episode!".

 

[AJK001]

I should have been more careful when talking about All Good Things, because for what it is, it is a fantastic episode. I like that even though it's primarily Picard focused, you can tell his admiration and care for his crew grows, especially at the end. I only wish Generations showed more of that instead of having Picard shouting to his first officer on the bridge barely five minutes of the crew's introduction.

The problem I have isn't so much the episode, but the formula that the creators used again and again as the series final for everything. Well, except for Deep Space Nine (I <3 You DS9!). Endgame was terrible at this since they used the exact same props, ships and even costumes from All Good Things. It was like they couldn't think of a comprehensive way to end the series so they just lifted stuff from All Good Things thinking that would make a great final. No thank you.

At least with "All Good Things", it was the first time they used the formula, so it was something new at the time as they had never ended a series without being cancelled.

I agree about Picard shouting at Ryker, I never liked that and really thought the way he reacted to the news of the deaths was completely out of character for the Picard they had shown us through the years. But, they had to establish that he was upset for the rest of the movie to work.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

I should have been more careful when talking about All Good Things, because for what it is, it is a fantastic episode. I like that even though it's primarily Picard focused, you can tell his admiration and care for his crew grows, especially at the end. I only wish Generations showed more of that instead of having Picard shouting to his first officer on the bridge barely five minutes of the crew's introduction.

The problem I have isn't so much the episode, but the formula that the creators used again and again as the series final for everything. Well, except for Deep Space Nine (I <3 You DS9!). Endgame was terrible at this since they used the exact same props, ships and even costumes from All Good Things. It was like they couldn't think of a comprehensive way to end the series so they just lifted stuff from All Good Things thinking that would make a great final. No thank you.

TNG's finale worked because it was the first of the series to do it. Voyager's & Enterprise's failed because they were obvious rehash (Enterprise's really bugged me but I did like the last "these are the voyages" bit).

DS9 had the luxury of knowing that cast didn't have a future in film or spin offs etc. so they used it to their advantage in the finale. Voyager should have done the same.

 

[CessnaDriver]

TOS Kirk let Khan off the hook and remember the shrink you to foam cubes and crush you from Andromeda guys? they got to walk too.

That last one always bugged me. Sure they became "human" but there wasn't even a mention of crushing that poor woman's cube.

I think one of the best examples of Janeway proving her profound dedication to protecting her crew comes from the episode "Phage". The crew find a planet with Dilithium on it and decide that since we can't have replicated food BUT non-stop use of the holodeck, it's worth checking out. Once inside, Neelix gets attacked, his lungs stolen and is left to die.

Was this attacker a creature that instinctively shoots beams at other creatures and removes their organs out of pure instinct? No, that would actually be the only way we would have any kind of sympathy towards what we're about to get. No, this was an intelligent being with a ray gun designed to harvest organs and transplant them into themselves, meaning we have just witnessed an attempted murder towards Neelix and a declaration of war on Voyager. How does our fiercely dedicated Captain react after the bad guys are caught?

Janeway: So I see no alternative......... but to let you go.

:facepalm But it gets better.

Janeway: Take a message to your people. If I ever encounter your kind again, I will do whatever is necessary to protect MY people from this.... harvesting of yours.

Now you're probably thinking "Oh, Janeway just got real! Her bad side is a horrible place to be!" But her dumb side is an even better place because...
the organ stealing Vidiians come back, play all sorts of nasty expirements on the crew with one killing a bona fide Voyager crew member and grafting his face onto his to make him more 'appealing' to a full klingon Torres. And what does Janeway do after hearing about this atrocious act from a race she gave a clear warning to?

NOTHING

They simply grab Torres, beam out and leave. All the Vidiians including the one with that one guy's face are still there with that member's organs ready for pillaging. And in a surprise that shocks no one, they still go after Voyager!

 

[Riceball]

Quick google search came up with Voyager covering about 45k lightyears from the free rides and their conventional warp drive before future Janeway violated the Temporal Prime Directive to keep Seven alive.

Sadly that little snarky comment reminded me of another reason to hate the finale. Screw the people who died when Voyager was pulled into the Delta Quadrant or who died along the way, Seven of Nine was more important to Janeway.

A little less than I had expected but still not insignificant and probably a lot closer to home than the writers/producers thought they were or made them out to be.

 

[Jeyl]

TOS Kirk let Khan off the hook

Yeah, but who's the more sympathetic? A powerful ruler who simply wished to find a new world from which he could build build his empire, or a species that goes around killing random innocent people for their organs and leaves them to die? Where as Kirk was the one who interfered with Khan's journey, those organ stealers surprised and attacked a member of Voyager's crew with the intent of killing him.

But I'll agree with you on those cube crushers. That was cold blooded as it was pointless. I think seeing as they are the only ones with the ability to transform them back would be enough to prove your point.

 

[Jeyl]

I actually liked Voyager

There ARE things to enjoy and appreciate about Voyager. Make no mistake. I respect some of the stories they did and the show did introduce some pretty iconic characters like the Doctor and Seven. The problem is that you actually have to 'look' for those episodes because they are few and far in between. It also doesn't help that the show started with a dud and ended with a dud, which made me wish we focused on an entirely different ship so that we could have characters who were competent and didn't make morally questionable decisions based on absolutes. Example:

*Janeway and Paris are on a planet that will soon be destroyed*
Janeway: You have no idea what the consequences will be once you involve yourself-
Paris: The consequences would have to be better than mass destruction.
Janeway: You are not to warn these people. That's an order.

Janeway just told Paris not to warn these people of their impending doom because.... they don't know what the consequences will be. Yet when Tom brings up the point that I would find hard to argue with, she simply shuts him up by making it an order. She honestly believes that letting everyone on the planet die is a better course of action than actually trying to save any of them.

 

[Riceball]

There ARE things to enjoy and appreciate about Voyager. Make no mistake. I respect some of the stories they did and the show did introduce some pretty iconic characters like the Doctor and Seven. The problem is that you actually have to 'look' for those episodes because they are few and far in between. It also doesn't help that the show started with a dud and ended with a dud, which made me wish we focused on an entirely different ship so that we could have characters who were competent and didn't make morally questionable decisions based on absolutes. Example:

*Janeway and Paris are on a planet that will soon be destroyed*
Janeway: You have no idea what the consequences will be once you involve yourself-
Paris: The consequences would have to be better than mass destruction.
Janeway: You are not to warn these people. That's an order.

Janeway just told Paris not to warn these people of their impending doom because.... they don't know what the consequences will be. Yet when Tom brings up the point that I would find hard to argue with, she simply shuts him up by making it an order. She honestly believes that letting everyone on the planet die is a better course of action than actually trying to save any of them.

I guess that's what you get when you get a captain who feels that the Prime Directive is inviolate no matter the situation or circumstances. As bad as it seems it's not entirely unrealistic, there are officers out there who really have no imagination and are absolute sticklers for rules and regulations, typically these people are that way because all they care about is their career and everything they say and do is with their career in mind and they'll do everything in their power to make sure that nothing gets in the way of their career. By the end of Voyager I think that it's probably safe to say that Janeway was one of those type of officers, everything by the book because actually using her initiative and/or doing something unconventional or outside the box might not work and that one mistake might have kept her from making Admiral

 

[The Mad Professor]

By the end of Voyager I think that it's probably safe to say that Janeway was one of those type of officers, everything by the book because actually using her initiative and/or doing something unconventional or outside the box might not work and that one mistake might have kept her from making Admiral

No, because look how big of a risk-taker Kirk was, and he made Admiral (relatively early, too). The only reason Janeway became an Admiral was because they looked at the Voyager logs and realized "We have GOT to get her out of the field before she royally screws something up."

 

[Michael Bergeron]

No, because look how big of a risk-taker Kirk was, and he made Admiral (relatively early, too). The only reason Janeway became an Admiral was because they looked at the Voyager logs and realized "We have GOT to get her out of the field before she royally screws something up."

thumbsup

 

[Riceball]

No, because look how big of a risk-taker Kirk was, and he made Admiral (relatively early, too). The only reason Janeway became an Admiral was because they looked at the Voyager logs and realized "We have GOT to get her out of the field before she royally screws something up."

I didn't say that only cautious, by the book officers make flag rank, just that some take that approach, I'd argue that it's the ones with no real command talent but manage to do all the right things and not **** anybody off along the way.

I do agree that it could easily argued that Janeway was promoted to get her out of the field and out of the center chair. After everything that happened they couldn't very well ask her to resign her commission, that would make Stargfleet look bad and be bad for morale, but at the same time they couldn't allow her to continue to command a starship and put more lives needlessly at risk so the only solution is to promote her to a desk.

Speaking of crew, that's one other thing that I strongly suspect that the production staff and show runner never kept track of, how many people were aboard the Voyager after the pilot and how many people they lost along the way. I remember reading that the crew compliment was supposed to have only been 150 but they lost a lot after the whole Caretaker incident and consequently took on Maquis members to bolster their numbers. However, I seem to remember that even with the addition of the Maquis the Voyager was undermanned which begs the question, just how many crew members should they really have had left by the end of the show? According to one thing I read they suffered something like 30% casualties but I'm thinking that's probably a bit on the light side.

 

[Treadwell]

Yes, the idea of finding out what happened to our crew we have been together with for seven years was thrown out because it would have involved more work.

That's not entirely fair...it wouldn't have been a case of "eh, that sounds hard", but rather, the season schedule gave them two hours to wrap up, not six or seven. It's not like they could go to Paramount and ask for the season to be extended.

 

[The Mad Professor]

I remember reading that the crew compliment was supposed to have only been 150 but they lost a lot after the whole Caretaker incident and consequently took on Maquis members to bolster their numbers.

Star Trek: Voyager: Voyager crew - TV.com

 

[Jeyl]

That's not entirely fair...it wouldn't have been a case of "eh, that sounds hard", but rather, the season schedule gave them two hours to wrap up, not six or seven. It's not like they could go to Paramount and ask for the season to be extended.

Here's an idea. Why don't they just cut one or two episodes planned for the season, and make the "post return" episodes after the final? That way they still have their episode quota and we get an epilogue. They don't have to add anything.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

A little less than I had expected but still not insignificant and probably a lot closer to home than the writers/producers thought they were or made them out to be.

Actually the show was referencing them being only 30k lightyears away from Earth in the last season. To their credit they managed to keep decent track of the distance travelled.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

Here's an idea. Why don't they just cut one or two episodes planned for the season, and make the "post return" episodes after the final? That way they still have their episode quota and we get an epilogue. They don't have to add anything.

Might not have worked, since Voyager smashed the reset button at the end of every episode. Not having them reach Earth as the last shot may have led to getting home being reset :lol

 

[Riceball]

Might not have worked, since Voyager smashed the reset button at the end of every episode. Not having them reach Earth as the last shot may have led to getting home being reset :lol

That's where, in my opinion, the producers blew a really good opportunity to wrap up the show in a decent. What they should have done was write the finale as a multi-episode story arc with each episode leading to the finale. I was seriously expecting that too but instead we got the usual stand alone episode until the very end and it really even that good of an episode either.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Might not have worked, since Voyager smashed the reset button at the end of every episode. Not having them reach Earth as the last shot may have led to getting home being reset :lol

I can picture it now, Voyager arrives back at Earth, they have a party, and then they're sent on a mission to capture a Maquis ship... :lol