TheDoctor
Sr Member
Nice. Make a judgement on the entire society based one scene showing their Soilent Green facility. :lol
Star Trek Voyager
- Thread starter Luke Skyvader
- Start date
Nice. Make a judgement on the entire society based one scene showing their Soilent Green facility. :lol
Zombie_61
Master Member
You tell 'em! If it weren't for the original series being such a success there wouldn't have been any spinoffs.Waddaya mean "even" TOS?
TOS rocked!
Kevin
TheDoctor
Sr Member
A lot of people give Voyager a hard time, and, to be fair, it's not undeserved. Much of the first three seasons are un-watchable. There are diamonds in the rough, but when Voyager was bad.... it was pretty bad. It's not like, say, the X-Files where even the worst episodes are still better than anything else on TV. No, Voyager did have it's low points.
Through the first three seasons, the low points vastly outnumbered the high points. In season four, however, things began to turn around and the high points started to out number the low points. There are even Voyager episodes that I would count among the finest Trek episodes ever produced.
When Voyager first started, people wanted the show to take DS9's darker spin. A Starfleet ship stranded on the other side of the galaxy, slowly running out of supplies having to make tough choices, always on the run and on the verge of blowing up. Instead we returned to the more hopeful vision of the future, taking on more of a TNG feeling instead of DS9 - and I was okay with that. DS9 is some of the finest television ever written, but after seven years of dark and gritty (five of which were spent in conflict with the Dominion), I was ready for a return to TNG.
What made Voyager special was the focus on community. Sure, other Trek series touched on it, but Voyager was the first to make the focus truly on the characters themselves and NOT the universe around them (TOS was more focused on the Wagon Train element, TNG touched on characterization but it stopped with Picard and Data, DS9 explored characterization a great deal but it had more to do with how the external story affected the characters - though DS9's characters were by FAR the most well written/acted/explored - Worf had more character in half a season of DS9 than all seven seasons of TNG).
The theme of the early seasons seemed to take us back to the Pulp tradition - Trek for the lowest-common-denominator (I think they spoofed their own early series pretty well with the Captain Proton episodes). The latter seasons seemed to give us a more Victorian approach - Exploring the unknown without leaving home (the continuing theme of the ship being "home" - which, itself, is a representation of the "ideal" Alpha Quadrant). These stories seemed like Verne's stories (20K Leagues and Around the World in 80 days, etc.).
In the end, Voyager did "play it safe" more than it took risks, but that's part of why I liked it. It was much closer to TNG's vision of the future - something more hopeful.
I have a friend who says that a lot of the strife, political tension, and problems we have today is due to the lack of new, hopeful visions of the future on our TV set each week (in the form of New Trek). I think he's right.
Through the first three seasons, the low points vastly outnumbered the high points. In season four, however, things began to turn around and the high points started to out number the low points. There are even Voyager episodes that I would count among the finest Trek episodes ever produced.
When Voyager first started, people wanted the show to take DS9's darker spin. A Starfleet ship stranded on the other side of the galaxy, slowly running out of supplies having to make tough choices, always on the run and on the verge of blowing up. Instead we returned to the more hopeful vision of the future, taking on more of a TNG feeling instead of DS9 - and I was okay with that. DS9 is some of the finest television ever written, but after seven years of dark and gritty (five of which were spent in conflict with the Dominion), I was ready for a return to TNG.
What made Voyager special was the focus on community. Sure, other Trek series touched on it, but Voyager was the first to make the focus truly on the characters themselves and NOT the universe around them (TOS was more focused on the Wagon Train element, TNG touched on characterization but it stopped with Picard and Data, DS9 explored characterization a great deal but it had more to do with how the external story affected the characters - though DS9's characters were by FAR the most well written/acted/explored - Worf had more character in half a season of DS9 than all seven seasons of TNG).
The theme of the early seasons seemed to take us back to the Pulp tradition - Trek for the lowest-common-denominator (I think they spoofed their own early series pretty well with the Captain Proton episodes). The latter seasons seemed to give us a more Victorian approach - Exploring the unknown without leaving home (the continuing theme of the ship being "home" - which, itself, is a representation of the "ideal" Alpha Quadrant). These stories seemed like Verne's stories (20K Leagues and Around the World in 80 days, etc.).
In the end, Voyager did "play it safe" more than it took risks, but that's part of why I liked it. It was much closer to TNG's vision of the future - something more hopeful.
I have a friend who says that a lot of the strife, political tension, and problems we have today is due to the lack of new, hopeful visions of the future on our TV set each week (in the form of New Trek). I think he's right.
You know I wanted to love and even like it but Man I could'nt stand it in the end.
It should have worked but I thought a lot of the scripts were lame.
Had one helluva cast that I feel sorry for.
Case in point, I got to know Garret Wang, who is a great guy and at the Cons I worked he was getting NO love from the fans, had to intercede one time because the 2 fans were just ripping him and he was very gracious about it.
It should have worked but I thought a lot of the scripts were lame.
Had one helluva cast that I feel sorry for.
Case in point, I got to know Garret Wang, who is a great guy and at the Cons I worked he was getting NO love from the fans, had to intercede one time because the 2 fans were just ripping him and he was very gracious about it.
PotionMistress
Sr Member
Yes, each of the series had good and bad episodes; no doubt about it. But the overall show ideas, the 'world' of that time, and the characters themselves are what were always compelling in Trek.
I agree with TheDoctor in that Voyager's persective was much more optimistic than DS9 or Enterprize, and settled in the same hopeful range as TOS and TNG. It had an additional draw for me in that, as they were essentially alone in the Delta Quatrant, it conveyed the feel of real adventure and uncertainty which lead to a much closer unity among the 145 or so crewmembers. A smaller crew, a survivalist's determination, and humanistic storylines are what keep me coming back for repeated viewing with Voyager.
I agree with TheDoctor in that Voyager's persective was much more optimistic than DS9 or Enterprize, and settled in the same hopeful range as TOS and TNG. It had an additional draw for me in that, as they were essentially alone in the Delta Quatrant, it conveyed the feel of real adventure and uncertainty which lead to a much closer unity among the 145 or so crewmembers. A smaller crew, a survivalist's determination, and humanistic storylines are what keep me coming back for repeated viewing with Voyager.
Jannix Quinn
Sr Member
Voyager was ok except for when they ruined the Borg forever.
DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
I went through all of Voyager recently on Netflix, and it held up a bit better than I recall. It would have been nice to see more of the conflict between the Maquis and the Starfleet personnel, or see them wait more than two episodes to introduce time travel, or wait more than seven to blatantly ripoff TNG, or give Janeway some 24th-century lithium so she wasn't so freaking bipolar, but it wasn't horrible.
I don't like that the last four seasons were basically just "The Adventures of Seven of Nine and the Doctor." It's also a bummer for Jennifer Lein that she got fired instead of Garret Wang because People magazine thought he was sexier, especially given how little characterization and screen-time Harry got. Too bad we didn't get to see anything after they got home either.
It was nice to have a ship-based show with sets that didn't look like a hotel though. Tuvok was awesome. The first Q episode they did was fantastic, and Year of Hell was some of the best Trek we got.
Just too bad that it also gave us Theshold and 11:59. I can't ever forgive Voyager for those two episodes.
I don't like that the last four seasons were basically just "The Adventures of Seven of Nine and the Doctor." It's also a bummer for Jennifer Lein that she got fired instead of Garret Wang because People magazine thought he was sexier, especially given how little characterization and screen-time Harry got. Too bad we didn't get to see anything after they got home either.
It was nice to have a ship-based show with sets that didn't look like a hotel though. Tuvok was awesome. The first Q episode they did was fantastic, and Year of Hell was some of the best Trek we got.
Just too bad that it also gave us Theshold and 11:59. I can't ever forgive Voyager for those two episodes.
I'm slowly making my way through VOY on Netflix as well, and it's hard for me to keep coming back to it given it's not holding my interest.
Not to sound stereotypical, but I think Seven's character is one of the more of the interesting ones, along with the Doctor. I would presume this is why later episodes focused so much on the two of them as they were the only characters to have any actual development.
I just watched Pathfinder, the episode where Voyager establishes communication with the Alpha quadrant. I thought it was a great episode and really tugged on the emotional strings of the crew being so far from home for such a long time.
Then they follow it up with Fair Haven, where Janeway falls in love with a holodeck character. It took me four separate sittings to make it through the whole thing because I honestly didn't care about what was going on. It's hard to stay committed to a show that's so hit-and-miss...
Sean
Not to sound stereotypical, but I think Seven's character is one of the more of the interesting ones, along with the Doctor. I would presume this is why later episodes focused so much on the two of them as they were the only characters to have any actual development.
I just watched Pathfinder, the episode where Voyager establishes communication with the Alpha quadrant. I thought it was a great episode and really tugged on the emotional strings of the crew being so far from home for such a long time.
Then they follow it up with Fair Haven, where Janeway falls in love with a holodeck character. It took me four separate sittings to make it through the whole thing because I honestly didn't care about what was going on. It's hard to stay committed to a show that's so hit-and-miss...
Sean
PotionMistress
Sr Member
Sean, I have a completely different take on some of what you said. I absolutely LOVE the holodeck stuff, especially Fairhaven and Spiritfolk. I thought they really showed how immersive a holodeck experience could be, and how much fun/dangerous it could also be. I definately wanted to see more of the Janeway/Michael Sullivan romance and I just loved how they allowed the program to be 'conscience' of what they actually were...so cool. Much better than the Moriarity evil of TNG.
I agree that Threshold sucked bigtime, and a few others were not so good, but I did like the 11:59 episode. It gets better with a few extra viewings and had a good point about how we can distort and romanticize our ancestors.
I don't understand people saying that the Harry Kim character never got any time...he's in practically every episode...don't get that at all.
Many characters were developed well. Belana Torres for example. They did a fantastic job by gradually showing her growing anger and outbursts which eventually led to her confrontation with it in Barge of the Dead and Lineage. It was masterfully done and very well fleshed out.
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The issue I have with Harry Kim is not his lack of presence, but his lack of promotion. Throughout the course of the entire series, Harry Kim has done a heck of a lot to save the ship, but never got one promotion.
Now, compare that to the character of Nog, a ferengi kid who literally started out as a petty thief at the start of Deep Space Nine. In season four, he attended Starfleet Academy and by the end of the series earned the rank of Lieutenant. Yes, Harry Kim started out as an ensign in the first year of Voyager and remained an ensign to the very end. It's pretty sad when a character like Harry who has been through more deaths than any of the Voyager crew will soon be taking orders from a young Ferengi after all Harry's been through. That is sad.
Voyager was also plagued with writers who, despite the premise of Voyager, did not want to let go of their "comfort zones" that the previous series offered. For example, early on in season one we have this little gem.
Janeway: Have you had any luck getting power from the holodeck reactors?
For a franchise that has had many "Divert all power to ____!" moments, you would think that asking this kind of question would be silly. But no, this is a case of Voyager literally saying that water from one super soaker cannot work in other super soakers. Yes, the reactors that power the holodeck are INCOMPATIBLE with the rest of the ship.
:eek
Here is what the Holodeck can do. We can recreate any kind of world, simulate any kind of war scenario and travel to various different time periods with flawless lifelike environments and characters, but we can't replicate a simple cup of coffee. This is why I call this a comfort zone for the writers. They don't want to worry about the struggles of the ship so they come up with one of the lamest explanations about the holodeck so they can continue to write episodes that in the long run will hardly matter, like spending time in a mid 20th century bar or watching Janeway indulge herself in one of her god awful costume dramas.
What makes this explanation even worse is that throughout the course of the series, Voyager has incorporated vast amounts of alien technology into it's systems all the way from Cardassians to the freaking Borg, and even future super duper technology as seen in End Game. But they can't get one part of the ship to work with another part of the same freaking ship.
Janeway: Have you had any luck getting power from the holodeck reactors?
For a franchise that has had many "Divert all power to ____!" moments, you would think that asking this kind of question would be silly. But no, this is a case of Voyager literally saying that water from one super soaker cannot work in other super soakers. Yes, the reactors that power the holodeck are INCOMPATIBLE with the rest of the ship.
:eek
Here is what the Holodeck can do. We can recreate any kind of world, simulate any kind of war scenario and travel to various different time periods with flawless lifelike environments and characters, but we can't replicate a simple cup of coffee. This is why I call this a comfort zone for the writers. They don't want to worry about the struggles of the ship so they come up with one of the lamest explanations about the holodeck so they can continue to write episodes that in the long run will hardly matter, like spending time in a mid 20th century bar or watching Janeway indulge herself in one of her god awful costume dramas.
What makes this explanation even worse is that throughout the course of the series, Voyager has incorporated vast amounts of alien technology into it's systems all the way from Cardassians to the freaking Borg, and even future super duper technology as seen in End Game. But they can't get one part of the ship to work with another part of the same freaking ship.
TheDoctor
Sr Member
I give the writers a bit of a pass on this one - only because the unique situation the ship is in. I suppose that Janeway needed Kim in his current position without trying to worm his way into Chief Engineer or transfer to another department. In ideal circumstances, Harry is right - he would have been promoted several times over. The only upside is that only one person received a promotion - and that's Paris (and only because he was demoted).
The one I can't forgive as readily is Seven. She should have been in a Starfleet uniform (or by her second year anyway). Think it was unfair to the Maquis to let Seven parade around in civilian clothes while forcing the Maquis to wear the uniform of a former enemy (more or less).
TheDoctor
Sr Member
Again, I give them a pass for at least addressing it. It would have been worse if they never even mentioned it. I just pinned it on Voyager being a new ship with new systems. Janeway and crew probably had three months worth of engineering meetings with Starfleet when they got back!
TheDoctor
Sr Member
The problem here is that TNG created an invincible enemy and even TNG had to back-peddle on how powerful they were. There's only so many stories you can tell before asking yourself how the Borg haven't over-run the entire Galaxy yet. Even TNG's "Best of Both Worlds" final solution was a cop-out.
PotionMistress
Sr Member
Well, I thought the Harry Kim rank position that Voyager took was much more realistic than Nog in DS9. First, as they mention in an episode, Voyager is alone and there are only so many positions available among 145 equally working-hard people. Secondly, Harry is fresh out of Starfleet when they get lost in the first episode. Seven years is not that long to be an Ensign, and I'm sure he would have been promoted several stations above that when they arrived home. In several episodes, they even address his own trepidations about the huge responsibility of being in charge of large decision positions, especially in their solo condition in the Delta Quadrant. And Captain Janeway DOES let him test his metal as captain on the night shift.
I always got the feeling that Nog was really only promoted because he was the first Ferengi in Starfleet and because he lost a leg in a battle showing bravery far beyond that of 99% of most Ferengi!
TheDoctor
Sr Member
That, and there was a war that was taking the lives of thousands of people weekly, so there was a need to backfill leadership positions left open by dead officers.
Wartime promotions happen fast while peacetime promotions happen at a slower, more progressive rate. Battlefield promotions happen as needed. If something happened to B'Elanna, Kim might get that promotion.
As has been said, Voyager had its share of EXCELLENT episodes. It also, alas, had much MORE than its share of AWFUL episodes.
I liked the doctor, and Seven, but there was just too damn much of them in later seasons. I really don't care that the doctor wants to sing. I just don't.
And the infusion of kids...Naomi Wildman, and, as I like to call them, Jim Henson's Borg Babies. Ugh, didn't care a whit about any of 'em.
I liked the doctor, and Seven, but there was just too damn much of them in later seasons. I really don't care that the doctor wants to sing. I just don't.
And the infusion of kids...Naomi Wildman, and, as I like to call them, Jim Henson's Borg Babies. Ugh, didn't care a whit about any of 'em.
DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
What did Harry ever do though on most episodes that some non-speaking extra couldn't have done? He was a glorified set-piece. How many Harry-centric episodes can you even name?
Harry wakes up back on Earth.
Future Harry saves the ship from crashing on Hoth...erm, Ice Planet Zero...
The space derby was equally about Tom and B'lanna so I don't count it. The one where the ship's duplicated and one Harry dies I don't count because it still focused more on Janeway. The Chute was equal parts Harry and Tom. Right now I honestly can't even think of other episodes that featured Harry.
Harry was going to be killed off to make room for Seven of Nine until People Magazine put him on a 50 or 100 sexiest men feature and the producers decided he couldn't be fired in light of that so Kes was booted instead. What would have been lost if Harry had been booted instead of Kes though?
TheDoctor said:
At least some of the Maquis were former Starfleet and were given battlefield recommissions by Janeway. Seven wasn't, and had no technical rank so why give her a uniform? Also, a baggy jumpsuit wouldn't show off the only reason she was hired in the first place
I'll grant that Seven was more interesting than everyone else on the show besides Doc, but that could also just be a result of the writers not trying to make other characters interesting. Braga was also dating Jeri Ryan at the time, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with her having better writing and more screen time than most of the rest of the cast.
PotionMistress
Sr Member
What did Harry ever do though on most episodes that some non-speaking extra couldn't have done? He was a glorified set-piece. How many Harry-centric episodes can you even name?
Harry wakes up back on Earth.
Future Harry saves the ship from crashing on Hoth...erm, Ice Planet Zero...
The space derby was equally about Tom and B'lanna so I don't count it. The one where the ship's duplicated and one Harry dies I don't count because it still focused more on Janeway. The Chute was equal parts Harry and Tom. Right now I honestly can't even think of other episodes that featured Harry.
Harry was going to be killed off to make room for Seven of Nine until People Magazine put him on a 50 or 100 sexiest men feature and the producers decided he couldn't be fired in light of that so Kes was booted instead. What would have been lost if Harry had been booted instead of Kes though?
At least some of the Maquis were former Starfleet and were given battlefield recommissions by Janeway. Seven wasn't, and had no technical rank so why give her a uniform? Also, a baggy jumpsuit wouldn't show off the only reason she was hired in the first place
I'll grant that Seven was more interesting than everyone else on the show besides Doc, but that could also just be a result of the writers not trying to make other characters interesting. Braga was also dating Jeri Ryan at the time, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with her having better writing and more screen time than most of the rest of the cast.
I thought there were quite a few ‘Harry-centric’ episodes. In addition to the ones you mentioned, what about Favorite Son, where he is being groomed as a mate for a matriarchal culture? Or The Disease, where Harry falls in love and defies Janeway to be with the girl he is chemically connected to? Besides, Garrett Wang was a much better actor than Jennifer Lien was…the character of Kes became blander with each season and it was obvious that Lien was not putting her heart into the part.
While I grant you that Jeri Ryan was initially brought on to ‘sex’ up the show and spark more male interest, it didn’t end up that way. The character of Seven held a fascinating story-line in her efforts to reestablish her humanity and Ryan did a terrific job portraying that gradual development without 'sexing' it up gratuitously. If it had, as a woman, I would have been the first to be furious about it.
The writers (Braga) really latched on to that tangent and I think they all did a brilliant job elaborating on that.
As far as the kids go….I loved them. A generational ship must have children to replenish it. It would have been totally unrealistic and unbelievable if this small enclosed culture of the Voyager ship did not begin families.
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DuneMuadDib
Sr Member
Well Wang was phoning it in almost as much as Beltran as the seasons wore on, for similar reasons. Harry got some good episodes, when he actually got them. Few and far between though.
Thankfully Seven was never sexualized to the extent T'Pol was. I'd still argue that the other characters could have been equally interesting had the writers made the effort.
Thankfully Seven was never sexualized to the extent T'Pol was. I'd still argue that the other characters could have been equally interesting had the writers made the effort.
