robn1
Master Member
No one in the federation has heard of the Gorns until "Arena". Spock never mind melded with a human before Simon Van Gelder in "Dagger of the Mind".
Diarrhea is better than explosive diarrhea, but that doesn't make it good.
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds
- Thread starter Noeland
- Start date
Diarrhea is better than explosive diarrhea, but that doesn't make it good.
ProfKSergeev
Sr Member
Saw "Spock Amok" tonight with a friend who's been watching every episode. This was my first exposure to SNW beyond clips and trailers. The production design is incredible and the actors are uniformly attractive, but damn was that a boring hour of television. I never felt an iota of engagement with any of the characters and the writing was what I'd expect out of a freshman film student at a community college. All the episode left me with were questions, and certainly not the ones the writers intended. To wit:
- Why do these people just seem like buddies rather than a functional crew?
- Why is the dialogue so needlessly contemporary and casual?
- Why are the Vulcans played as affectless robots rather than living, breathing people?
- Why was there zero setup for the soul-swap and why did it immediately go south?
- Why is the wanted fugitive T'Pring is chasing allowed to wander freely on a Federation starbase?
- Why would Spock so quickly lose his temper and K.O. him?
- Why is the theme music so generic and drum-heavy?
- Why should I care about any of these people?
- Why does this show even exist?
In SNW's defense, it's so flyweight and inconsequential that at least it's easy to ignore.
- Why do these people just seem like buddies rather than a functional crew?
- Why is the dialogue so needlessly contemporary and casual?
- Why are the Vulcans played as affectless robots rather than living, breathing people?
- Why was there zero setup for the soul-swap and why did it immediately go south?
- Why is the wanted fugitive T'Pring is chasing allowed to wander freely on a Federation starbase?
- Why would Spock so quickly lose his temper and K.O. him?
- Why is the theme music so generic and drum-heavy?
- Why should I care about any of these people?
- Why does this show even exist?
In SNW's defense, it's so flyweight and inconsequential that at least it's easy to ignore.
asalaw
Sr Member
Yep. THAT’S how to do good Trek.
The bias of lowered expectations. We’ve been beaten so senseless by years of relentless assault on our beloved franchises that a blunt stick in the eye is welcomed with open arms simply because it’s not a sharp stick.
Consider the lore-smashing development this week in that other STAR franchise, which people are freaking out over. A shiny new coat of paint over crap doesn’t make it not-crap. It’s almost amusing to watch the mental gymnastics that our fellow nerds—addicts, really—will perform to try and make themselves like terrible shows and movies produced by people who hate them, and have no understanding of the properties they’ve been handed. It’s Charlie Brown and the football, every single time.
Just wait for the other shoe to drop. Past behavior is an excellent predictor of future behavior, and there’s simply no way that this group of clowns who have destroyed this franchise could somehow pull out a win and make a legitimately good show which meets the high standards of TREKs past.
Meanwhile, I’m what you could call a fundamentalist. The original—the real—STAR TREK is my single favorite TV show of all time. And it’s quite possibly the single most influential and obsessed-over show in the history of television. You don’t see loving recreations of the I LOVE LUCY or M*A*S*H sets, or space shuttles named after SPACE: 1999’s Eagle.
I was dreading the Abrams reboot, back in 2009, and it didn’t disappoint in terms of completely misunderstanding and dumbing down TREK for the masses. At least they played the “get out of jail free”, “alternate timeline” trick to make this development somewhat tolerable. They weren’t rewriting the past. But, even then, I knew that the franchise already had a good, long run, and that their going to the reboot well was not a good sign regarding its long-term health.
And now we’re getting a TV reboot, one which is doing its level best to both rehash and overwrite the original. They could have simply done the right thing and called it a reboot. But, no, as with STD before it, they insist on shoveling their dreck into the official canon. Which is utterly ridiculous.
Bottom line? I sat back and mostly held my tongue for STD and PICARD, as awful as they are. But now they’re directly ****ing with my favorite show ever. STAR TREK is a legend in television history, and a beloved and incomparable icon of nerd culture. Idiot corporations keep taking things we love and trying to turn them into “lifestyle brands”. Well, STAR TREK was arguably the very first and most genuine of all nerd lifestyle brands. It kicked off the very nerd culture which has now been ripped to shreds by the Abrams and Kurtzmans and Disneys and Warners of the world. At least some real STAR TREK is now back, in the form of THE ORVILLE.
And that all means I go full jihad on their dumb asses. Ruthless mockery and laser-targeted logic are the best weapons to counter this insulting stupidity.
Yippie-ki-yay, Mr. Falcon.
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Story, characters, and internal logic. So simple, yet so easy to miss by so many.
You can almost hear the writers on these new shows discussing all of the external checkboxes they want to hit, without bothering to build their stories from the inside-out, beginning with the characters and the drama. I find myself thinking of that anecdote Major Grin clipped awhile back, where a TNG writer pitched a fun little story where Q led Picard and crew on a goose chase around the galaxy, and Roddenberry said, “Yes, but what’s it about?”.
It’s so sad to see things like professionalism, heroism, and optimism slowly bleeding out of TREK, and replaced with shallow platitudes at best, and nihilism and worst.
Don’t question. Consume product, and get excited for next product. They put in Easter Eggs and “homage” plots of old episodes and movies, so it must therefore be good TREK.
…in rewatching that scene, I’m also reminded of, in THE MOTION PICTURE, Kirk admonishing Decker for constantly questioning him, Decker noting that an executive officer’s duty is to point out alternatives, and Kirk acknowledging his own error. Great moment which is totally proper and professional.
I personally cannot stand the popular perception of Kirk as a womanizing rulebreaker and devil-may-care jerk, which has now been codified by the Abrams films. And which will surely be the launching pad upon which we get this new show’s…interpretation…of the character.
Gotta take misogynistic, toxically masculine pigs like Kirk down a few pegs, after all.
As an aside, people who bemoan the fact that Bryan Fuller was replaced by Kurtzman as STD showrunner should hold their horses. In an interview on the Inglorious TREKsperts Podcast, Fuller described Kirk as “a pig and a dick”, which does not fill me with much confidence in terms of his understanding of STAR TREK or his ability to produce it. Maybe Fuller’s STD would have been a step up from Kurtzman’s, but…
kalkamel
Master Member
I've got to admit, while the show has many many flaws that I am critical about, I am finding some small things about it that I like, and that's what's keeping me watching. I've given up hoping of seeing anything up to the level of TOS or the Berman-era Trek, especially under the current stewardship, because they just don't get Star Trek. But with SNW, I'll give them some credit... not a lot... just a little... for trying.
Five episodes in and we're still treading on familiar, treaded before, grounds... absolutely nothing new. Every episode seems to be calling back to a previous, and better done, episode of Trek and at times it can get infuriating. The showrunners are obviously banking on member-berries and nostalgia to bring in the viewers, especially fans of older Trek. The lirpa duel in the latest episode pissed me off, especially when they also brought back that iconic TOS lirpa duel music... it was blatant and shameless. By comparison, aside from De Kelley's appearance in the pilot and the space virus in The Naked Now, TNG tried its best to stand on its own two feet in its maiden season.
And I hate the frequent callbacks to STD... it's as if Kurtzman wants to keep reminding us that we wouldn't have this show if not for STD. What he doesn't realize is that STD is so bad that's why fans wanted a show like SNW that feels more like the Trek we know. While SNW still has a long way to go to prove itself, you can't deny there is a tiny bit of effort to streamline it into the Trek we're familiar with.
The writing is just all over the place. We're a long way from the quality writing by the likes of DC Fontana, Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold or even Ron Moore and Naren Shankar, and I do hope that will change, as this show would benefit a lot from people who actually know and have written sci-fi. In the latest Critical Drinker After Hours, Marc Zicree told the Drinker that he's been in contact with the SNW showrunners offering his writing services and I do hope they take him up on that offer.
I don't like how Pike runs his ship; chain of command is quesionable. Whereas Kirk commanded his ship in a militaristic way, and Picard ran his like a no-nonsense CEO heading an 80s/90s multinational corporation, Pike runs his like a millennial running a tech startup... too casual for my liking. Last week's Gorn episode could have been a good one if not for Pike having his command decisions questioned almost every time by Discount Drummer and Discount Vasquez. And the latest episode's nonsense with the Enterprise Bingo - Kirk and Picard wouldn't have put up with such things on their ships.
And of course the worst part is the continuing retconning of Trek canon by Kurtzman and co.
But like I said earlier, there are some positives. The show is just gorgeous to look at, obviously they've spared no expense when it comes to production value (just the writing). Every shot is cinematic... compare this to the latest episode of Obi-wan Kenobi in which the confrontation in the third act was shot un-cinematically that it looked like it was taken from a fanfilm.
I do like some of the characters. Anson Mount (what a great pornstar name!) is the the reason why I watch this show in the first place... he made Season 2 of STD watchable. And he's certainly good as Pike... I just wished he was stricter and not trying to be more buddy-like with the crew. Ethan Peck may be miscast as Spock but you gotta admit he's trying his best with what he's given. I like Rebecca Romjin as Number One and Nurse Chapel is quickly warming up to me. One thing this show has in common with TOS is the beautiful women. Both Discount Drummer and Discount Vasquez are actually stunners in real life without the ridiculous haircuts and the permanent scowl.
Is SNW a better show than STD and Picard? Abso-frackin-lutely, but not by a huge margin. I just hope it will start to stand on its two feet rather than keep calling back to previous Trek episodes. And I do hope they bring in quality writers. For now I'll keep watching and maybe some day I will be surprised by what I see.
Five episodes in and we're still treading on familiar, treaded before, grounds... absolutely nothing new. Every episode seems to be calling back to a previous, and better done, episode of Trek and at times it can get infuriating. The showrunners are obviously banking on member-berries and nostalgia to bring in the viewers, especially fans of older Trek. The lirpa duel in the latest episode pissed me off, especially when they also brought back that iconic TOS lirpa duel music... it was blatant and shameless. By comparison, aside from De Kelley's appearance in the pilot and the space virus in The Naked Now, TNG tried its best to stand on its own two feet in its maiden season.
And I hate the frequent callbacks to STD... it's as if Kurtzman wants to keep reminding us that we wouldn't have this show if not for STD. What he doesn't realize is that STD is so bad that's why fans wanted a show like SNW that feels more like the Trek we know. While SNW still has a long way to go to prove itself, you can't deny there is a tiny bit of effort to streamline it into the Trek we're familiar with.
The writing is just all over the place. We're a long way from the quality writing by the likes of DC Fontana, Harlan Ellison, David Gerrold or even Ron Moore and Naren Shankar, and I do hope that will change, as this show would benefit a lot from people who actually know and have written sci-fi. In the latest Critical Drinker After Hours, Marc Zicree told the Drinker that he's been in contact with the SNW showrunners offering his writing services and I do hope they take him up on that offer.
I don't like how Pike runs his ship; chain of command is quesionable. Whereas Kirk commanded his ship in a militaristic way, and Picard ran his like a no-nonsense CEO heading an 80s/90s multinational corporation, Pike runs his like a millennial running a tech startup... too casual for my liking. Last week's Gorn episode could have been a good one if not for Pike having his command decisions questioned almost every time by Discount Drummer and Discount Vasquez. And the latest episode's nonsense with the Enterprise Bingo - Kirk and Picard wouldn't have put up with such things on their ships.
And of course the worst part is the continuing retconning of Trek canon by Kurtzman and co.
But like I said earlier, there are some positives. The show is just gorgeous to look at, obviously they've spared no expense when it comes to production value (just the writing). Every shot is cinematic... compare this to the latest episode of Obi-wan Kenobi in which the confrontation in the third act was shot un-cinematically that it looked like it was taken from a fanfilm.
I do like some of the characters. Anson Mount (what a great pornstar name!) is the the reason why I watch this show in the first place... he made Season 2 of STD watchable. And he's certainly good as Pike... I just wished he was stricter and not trying to be more buddy-like with the crew. Ethan Peck may be miscast as Spock but you gotta admit he's trying his best with what he's given. I like Rebecca Romjin as Number One and Nurse Chapel is quickly warming up to me. One thing this show has in common with TOS is the beautiful women. Both Discount Drummer and Discount Vasquez are actually stunners in real life without the ridiculous haircuts and the permanent scowl.
Is SNW a better show than STD and Picard? Abso-frackin-lutely, but not by a huge margin. I just hope it will start to stand on its two feet rather than keep calling back to previous Trek episodes. And I do hope they bring in quality writers. For now I'll keep watching and maybe some day I will be surprised by what I see.
asalaw
Sr Member
I don’t know anything about Fuller. But I’ve often said that STD is the perfect acronym for that show, since it’s both painful to experience and embarrassing to talk about.
But whatever you do, don’t let this Fuller guy watch Top Gun: Maverick. It features a masculine American hero imbued with courage and nobility who changes the people around him by his sheer presence. How this film escaped the Hollywood woke machine I’ll never know, but I’m delighted it did. And it’s even going to make a handsome profit without playing in China. Whoda thunkit?
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JiminSTLouis
Sr Member
Usually when I see a post as long as yours I pass it over thinking “what a windbag”. But damn… you hit the nail right on the head with every point!
asalaw
Sr Member
I just remembered another few scenes where a subordinate privately tells a superior he’s made a mistake, and they’re good examples:
Sam Neill telling Sean Connery “It would be better if you had not informed Moscow…” in The Hunt for Red October.
Harvey Keitel admonishing Matthew McConaughey that saying he doesn’t have the answers “will kill a crew” in U-571.
And from TOS, Spock reminding Kirk that a captain can’t be seen as anything less than perfect in The Enemy Within.
You’d be forgiven for thinking the writers of Strange New Hair had never seen good writing before, judging from the way they ignore great examples and shamelessly rip off bad ones.
CRIMSON TIDE is also a great TREK movie that isn’t a TREK movie, in terms of a moral dilemma, submarine warfare, and an ethical conflict which generates drama amongst the ship’s crew.. And, of course, Quentin Tarantino added in actual TREK references when he polished the script.
JiminSTLouis
Sr Member
Spock and McCoy questioned Kirk‘s actions quite often in TOS. Obsession comes to mind.
…which is not a great episode, since Kirk’s titular obsession is out of character. And they questioned him in private.
Lightning
Master Member
This is true, they made a deliberate decision to ignore that line of dialogue. And it was the logical choice.
This isn't actually stated anywhere in Arena. As a matter of fact there is a continuity error in Arena that implies the opposite. In his attempted planetside log Kirk says "I face the creature the Metrons called a Gorn." He's telling the future listener where he got this information, Kirk doesn't have independent verification that his opponent really is a Gorn.
Then he says "I'm engaged in personal combat with a creature apparently called a Gorn." This does imply that Kirk personally hasn't heard the term Gorn before, but it's certainly not explicit. Even if he hasn't personally heard of them (possible, if unlikely) it doesn't mean no one else in the Federation hasn't come across the name. Kirk doesn't have the Enterprise's computer to reference.
But here the kicker, after the Metrons send the video feed to the Enterprise we get this exchange:
MCCOY: The Gorn simply might have been trying to protect themselves.
SPOCK: Yes.
No one says the name Gorn to McCoy before he says the name. Therefore the only explanation is they figured out that the Gorn were likely responsible for the attack by researching Federation Records while we were busy watching Kirk on the Planet.
Cephus
Master Member
They didn't do it in public, which is the point. Spock didn't say "Hey Jim, you're being an ass!" on the bridge.
Cephus
Master Member
But that's just stupid. Now, we're supposed to believe that Kirk had never heard of it before but it was common knowledge, not only among the Federation, but among members of his own crew, on his own ship, including HIS OWN FATHER! We don't really know what timeline this is taking place in and yes, his father died at his birth in the Kelvin timeline at least, but that's inconceivable that, having had access to the Enterprise records for his entire command, he'd never run across it. Why didn't Spock tell him?
This is idiotic.
robn1
Master Member
How is it "logical" to violate established continuity? Spock made a specific point that a mind meld with a non Vulcan could be dangerous and that it had never been done. His meld with La'an robs that original scene of it's impact, just as SNW as a whole is undermining TOS as a whole.
The Metrons mention "the captain of the Gorn ship" just before Kirk is whisked off the bridge.
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