Star Trek Into Darkness (Post-release)

[Bryancd]

Single biggest problem with the new films is there attempt to reboot the franchise while trying to keep the franchise within established canon. Big mistake. They should have just rebooted it and allowed it to be it's own thing separate from almost 50 years of content.

 

[Mola Rob]

Well, now you're contradicting yourself:


So, was it, or was it not clear at the beginning that it was supposed to be an alternate universe?

Let's be clear about what the films show though. The beginning of the film in ST09 is the point where Nero intrudes and, to borrow Doc Brown's language, skews off into an alternate Trek universe. Although this isn't necessarily made immediately clear by the film, this ambiguity is in service to the story.

The film does make it abundantly clear that it is an alternate universe. They use it in dialogue. Young Spock has that line about "whatever our lives might have been....."

That's not peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining, that's bashing you over the head with "THIS IS AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE!!!!!"

No contradiction, you are jumping too far ahead in the movie. It was clear at the very beginning it wasn't the Prime Universe BEFORE any changes were made. That is what is lazy in my opinion.

I am well aware the point of the story was that Nero's actions changed the timeline in totally random and silly ways and created an alternate timeline. But why didn't anything resemble the Trek we were familiar with to begin with?

 

[jlee562]

No contradiction, you are jumping too far ahead in the movie.

Let's take a step back:

Because it was supposed to be the Prime Universe to start off with in the beginning of Trek 09.

I thought it was abundantly clear in the first JJ Trek that it wasn't the Prime Universe to begin with.

"...to begin with." Which, by definition, means the beginning of the film and/or the base assumption. If you misspoke, fair enough. But as written, these two statements are contradictory.

It was clear at the very beginning it wasn't the Prime Universe BEFORE any changes were made. That is what is lazy in my opinion.

This, is quite literally not true. ST09 depicts nothing of the Prime universe (not withstanding the Spock prime character), save for the few seconds before Nero arrives.

I am well aware the point of the story was that Nero's actions changed the timeline in totally random and silly ways and created an alternate timeline. But why didn't anything resemble the Trek we were familiar with to begin with?

The "in-universe" explanation is that it's an alternate universe. The "real world" explanation is that it's a reboot.

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I never watched the oldies but I thought it was quite clear. Thing is. For someone who has watched the older films. Its as easy as 2 and 2 to work out . Films dont have a lot of time to explain things that are pretty obvious.... they have to concentrate on the story. And if u haven't watched the old ones and dont get it even though its explained. . then why would you care if it was alternate. As you never knew the original one.

J

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

This is actually the smartest part about the way they did the reboot.

I mean, let's put aside Bryan's point above about whether or not they should have intertwined the past Trek canon (which IS a valid point). Given that they did, and given that their goal was to expand the Trek audience, doing the alternate universe was actually kind of an inspired move. You can bring in new fans without having to rely on the exposition of the old canon.

 

[Bryancd]

I mean, let's put aside Bryan's point above about whether or not they should have intertwined the past Trek canon

Nobody puts Bryan's point in a corner...

I blame Nimoy. As soon as he agreed to be in the '09 film it was fanboy hard on and JJ went to town! His inclusion just never felt organic in the story.

 

[Mola Rob]

Let's take a step back:

"...to begin with." Which, by definition, means the beginning of the film and/or the base assumption. If you misspoke, fair enough. But as written, these two statements are contradictory.

This, is quite literally not true. ST09 depicts nothing of the Prime universe (not withstanding the Spock prime character), save for the few seconds before Nero arrives

I think our arguments are out of whack because of differing opinions. I was under the impression Nero travels through time, not to an alternate universe so therefore the movie begins in the Prime Universe and he makes changes that alters the timeline.

 

[Bryancd]

I think our arguments are out of whack because of differing opinions. I was under the impression Nero travels through time, not to an alternate universe so therefore the movie begins in the Prime Universe and he makes changes that alters the timeline.

That's the way I have always understood it to be.

 

[Solo4114]

The stuff I heard about this film was that it was a rebooted Prime universe.

In other words, Nero's trip through time literally wiped out the pre-existing Prime Universe that folks had been watching since the 1960s. All that was gone and this was what remained. And THAT was something that rather irked a lot of long-time fans.

Now, if the dodge for that is "Oh, but it's an alternate universe once Nero enters it" (the Doc Brown "B" timeline), then fine and dandy, the Prime Universe exists (albeit with Old Spock gone now), and nothing that came before is erased.

I think the thing that Mola Rob is trying to point out is that in those few minutes before Nero arrives, it looks like the universe into which he arrives is ALREADY an alternate universe, not the Prime Universe. So, what was floating around -- that the Prime Universe had been totally unmade by ST09 -- wasn't true, and was really totally unnecessary and shouldn't have been floating around at all. The pre- and post-release press should've clearly stated "No. Prime Universe still exists, so if someone wants to make movies or TV shows about that, they can go for it. This is an alternate universe entirely."

But instead, the message wasn't as clear as all that, and was largely implied by the film and confused by pre-/post-release statements and fan interpretations.

Alternatively, the intention originally WAS to "erase" the Prime Universe, and after some consideration, they decided that maybe they didn't want to put the old girl down so hastily, when they could play out this JJ verse and then still go back to the Prime one at some later date if they wanted to...so they started fudging what they said and making it more ambiguous. Either way, if the end result is "No, JJ-verse and Prime Universe are two completely different universes, only loosely connected through Nero's and Spock's trip through time, but otherwise entirely unrelated," then....why the hell let all the info out about "Prime Universe is gone. Nero blew it up." Why bother antagonizing the old school fans when you could've pleased everyone by just saying "Oh, no worries, guys. It's just an alternate universe. We can bring back the old one any time."

Maybe they didn't do that because tehy wanted to "force" the old school fans to accept the new JJ-verse. Maybe they did it because, otherwise, who cares what happens to these characters, since the originals are still out there? Maybe they had some other reason. I have no idea. But my recollection of all the hubbub about ST09 and what it did to the Prime Universe was that it was supposedly wiping out the old stuff, which pissed off a lot of fans -- apparently, unnecessarily.

 

[Bryancd]

Yeah, the aesthetic seen on the Kelvin looked unlikely to morph into the TOS we all know anytime soon!

 

[jlee562]

I think our arguments are out of whack because of differing opinions. I was under the impression Nero travels through time, not to an alternate universe so therefore the movie begins in the Prime Universe and he makes changes that alters the timeline.

Our arguments are out of whack because I don't think there's anything in the film which supports what you're arguing.

I am not saying that Nero traveled to an alternate universe, and quite frankly, I'm not sure how you concluded that from what I've written.

Nero's incursion creates the alternate universe. The moment he arrives and attacks the Kelvin, we're in the JJverse. That is the beginning of ST09.

On what basis are you therefore concluding that the film begins in a universe which is not the prime universe? That's not what the film says explicitly or implicitly. In fact, the involvement of Prime Spock quite literally refutes that argument.

edit to add: it's like the discussion I had with Jeyl about Pike and Kirk. While you can argue that the events of the film don't give Pike adequate reason to like Kirk so much (i.e. the quality of the story), you cannot argue that the film doesn't depict that Pike likes Kirk. Likewise here, if you want to argue that the film failed in its portrayal of the Prime universe for the scant few seconds we spend in the Prime universe, fine, fair enough. But it's a whole other thing to argue that the film doesn't start in the Prime universe, because that is very clearly what the film depicts.

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Yeah, the aesthetic seen on the Kelvin looked unlikely to morph into the TOS we all know anytime soon!

That's what I said about Enterprise.

 

[Bryancd]

That's what I said about Enterprise.

That too.

But I dug it as I dug the '09 and Into Darkness look..well some of it, the ships still look like poop.

 

[RougeAvenger81]

Single biggest problem with the new films is there attempt to reboot the franchise while trying to keep the franchise within established canon. Big mistake. They should have just rebooted it and allowed it to be it's own thing separate from almost 50 years of content.

Although I enjoy the JJ-verse I can agree with you here completely. If it was a strict reboot I think you can explain away a lot of discrepancies rather then trying to do an alternate reality. Easier to use the past as a guide.

 

[RougeAvenger81]

That too.

But I dug it as I dug the '09 and Into Darkness look..well some of it, the ships still look like poop.

I liked the outside of the enterprise. Inside, not so much. Too much deviation and the engine room looking/being a brewery kind of put me off. I understand wanting real time filming and prefer it, however you could build it better then what you could find in a warehouse. The Vengeance, horrible.

 

[jlee562]

I liked the outside of the enterprise. Inside, not so much. Too much deviation and the engine room looking/being a brewery kind of put me off. I understand wanting real time filming and prefer it, however you could build it better then what you could find in a warehouse. The Vengeance, horrible.

I just caught Dave Grohl's documentary about the Sound City recording studio (free on Amazon Prime video FYI), and there's a little part in the end where all the folks in the documentary are talking about the Budweiser brewery..and I'm thinking to myself, "you mean the engine room of the Enterprise?"

The choice to use the brewery is a mind numbingly dumb one. I appreciate JJ's use of physical sets, but the brewery looks like a brewery. Why would there be cement walls on a starship? The rest of the interior sets I don't mind so much, although all the glaring white makes it look so sterile and hospital like.

 

[Mola Rob]

Our arguments are out of whack because I don't think there's anything in the film which supports what you're arguing.

I am not saying that Nero traveled to an alternate universe, and quite frankly, I'm not sure how you concluded that from what I've written.

Nero's incursion creates the alternate universe. The moment he arrives and attacks the Kelvin, we're in the JJverse. That is the beginning of ST09.

On what basis are you therefore concluding that the film begins in a universe which is not the prime universe? That's not what the film says explicitly or implicitly. In fact, the involvement of Prime Spock quite literally refutes that argument.

edit to add: it's like the discussion I had with Jeyl about Pike and Kirk. While you can argue that the events of the film don't give Pike adequate reason to like Kirk so much (i.e. the quality of the story), you cannot argue that the film doesn't depict that Pike likes Kirk. Likewise here, if you want to argue that the film failed in its portrayal of the Prime universe for the scant few seconds we spend in the Prime universe, fine, fair enough. But it's a whole other thing to argue that the film doesn't start in the Prime universe, because that is very clearly what the film depicts.
.

Okay lets start over. I think things have been misinterpreted or I just didn't do a very good job of explaining.

I never concluded (or intended to show as my conclusion) that the movie does not start in the Prime Universe, I know that was the intention. I'm saying they did a half-assed job of portraying it as the Prime Universe even if it was only for a few minutes.

 

[Robinson]

To give it the look of the tos type of aesthetic in this day and age would just look cheap and unrealistic for a ship that is supposedly able to cross galaxies.

I can forgive them for not making the kelvin look really simplified with just some blinky lights.

 

[jlee562]

Okay lets start over. I think things have been misinterpreted or I just didn't do a very good job of explaining.

I never concluded (or intended to show as my conclusion) that the movie does not start in the Prime Universe, I know that was the intention. I'm saying they did a half-assed job of portraying it as the Prime Universe even if it was only for a few minutes.

So what would you have them do differently? Retcon George Kirk onto the bridge of the NX01? Recycle the uniforms from Enterprise?

I mean, if you really want to get technical about it, AFAIK, there's not canonical source which says that the Kelvin uniforms don't match canon, because there is no "official" treatment of the time between Enterprise and TOS.

The reality is that the Prime Universe itself didn't do a very good job of portraying the Prime universe if you want to go by aesthetics. Enterprise does not look more primitive (relatively speaking) than TOS. Of course, we all know the real explanation for this is that TOS was a cheap TV show made in the late 60's, and in the ensuing decades, we have a changed perspective of what looks "futuristic."

So given that JJ & Co. decided that they wanted to do an alternate reality, what choices did they have? Well, they could have designed the JJverse to look exactly like TOS. Beyond the fact that I don't think any studio in their right mind would let them or want them to do this, would you really buy that presentation as "futuristic" in 2013? I sure wouldn't. Or, they could have done what they did, which is make the uniforms and the bridge of the Kelvin look aesthetically different from the JJ-1701.

 

[Jeyl]

Star Trek Into Darkness Honest Trailers

THOLIANS!

 

[Apollo]

Preach it Bro! :lol

Single biggest problem with the new films is there attempt to reboot the franchise while trying to keep the franchise within established canon. Big mistake. They should have just rebooted it and allowed it to be it's own thing separate from almost 50 years of content.

 

[kialna]

'Star Trek Into Darkness' Featurette Reveals Origin Of Benedict Cumberbatch's Role - Music, Celebrity, Artist News | MTV.com

JJ here says that he wasn't thinking of 'whitewashing', something that fired up the internet, and just went with it. Although knowing that people would get mad about a 'white actor playing a person of color'. I have seen many many posts about people going insane about that part, but apparently all the people they originally had in mind were of a different 'race' but either declined or couldn't do it. Cumberbatch was 4th on the 'list' and only appeared on that once one of the writers said that.
Cumberbatch states here that he did not know who he was playing until he already enrolled.

The set does seem like fun though. I wish I had a job like that....either being behind the scenes or an actor.

 

[Mola Rob]

So what would you have them do differently? Retcon George Kirk onto the bridge of the NX01? Recycle the uniforms from Enterprise?

I mean, if you really want to get technical about it, AFAIK, there's not canonical source which says that the Kelvin uniforms don't match canon, because there is no "official" treatment of the time between Enterprise and TOS.

The reality is that the Prime Universe itself didn't do a very good job of portraying the Prime universe if you want to go by aesthetics. Enterprise does not look more primitive (relatively speaking) than TOS. Of course, we all know the real explanation for this is that TOS was a cheap TV show made in the late 60's, and in the ensuing decades, we have a changed perspective of what looks "futuristic."

So given that JJ & Co. decided that they wanted to do an alternate reality, what choices did they have? Well, they could have designed the JJverse to look exactly like TOS. Beyond the fact that I don't think any studio in their right mind would let them or want them to do this, would you really buy that presentation as "futuristic" in 2013? I sure wouldn't. Or, they could have done what they did, which is make the uniforms and the bridge of the Kelvin look aesthetically different from the JJ-1701.

I can understand not making the Kelvin look like the NX-01 considering that happened over 120 years before the attack on the Kelvin but maybe they could have made the Kelvin exterior look less like the refit Enterprise or maybe mention they were raising shields? Maybe not having the viewscreen be a window as well and not having the bridge be so cluttered that it resembled nothing we have ever seen in Starfleet. Maybe not having the cavernous brewery as the interior of the ship and not having plastic weather stripping hanging in the door of the shuttle, etc. Like Bryan said the aesthetic on the Kelvin looked unlikely to morph into the TOS we all know and this took place only twenty or so years before the events of The Cage would have happened if the timeline hadn't been altered.

Yes I'm being uber geeky but I just found it lazy and uninspiring...but that's just my opinion.