Star Trek Beyond

Re: New STAR TREK 3

I'd LOVE to see what some of the orginal series writers could come up with today for a film.
Many of course are still with us.

I'm kind of laughing, that Elysium film coming out sure sounds like The Cloud Minders.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Khan only targeted SF as a last ditch effort. There's no indication in the film that it was his plan all along
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Khan only targeted SF as a last ditch effort. There's no indication in the film that it was his plan all along

And that changes what exactly? Who is to say that Nero wanting to destroy the whole Federation wasn't just something he thought of now that he had all the red matter? What matters is that he attacks Earth just like everyone else in the past two Star Trek films.

And it took me a moment to realize why that SF crash scene bothered me as much as it did. It wasn't so much the 9/11 imagery, but the fact that the Enterprise knew what was going on and didn't do anything to try and stop it. I don't recall anyone saying "Tractor beam systems out!" or that all they had for power was stabilizing thrusters. The sight of a broken, crippled, and still falling apart Enterprise struggling to catch up with the Vengeance while also trying to stop it from slamming head long into San Francisco would have been such an epic scene in a Star Trek film that even I think it would have made this movie cooler. Would have given the Enterprise something to do outside of being knocked out of a fight only after a few phaser blasts.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

It means that the plot of the movie is not about earth. That was the complaint here before the film came out "Oh, it's earth in peril again!"

While earth serves as a backdrop for some of the story, the story is not about earth. It's not about Khan trying to destroy earth. It's about the crew of the Enterprise figuring out a conspiracy between Marcus and Khan.

I think that is thematically distinct from say, trying to save earth by bringing some humpback whales into the future.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

And that changes what exactly? Who is to say that Nero wanting to destroy the whole Federation wasn't just something he thought of now that he had all the red matter? What matters is that he attacks Earth just like everyone else in the past two Star Trek films.

And it took me a moment to realize why that SF crash scene bothered me as much as it did. It wasn't so much the 9/11 imagery, but the fact that the Enterprise knew what was going on and didn't do anything to try and stop it. I don't recall anyone saying "Tractor beam systems out!" or that all they had for power was stabilizing thrusters. The sight of a broken, crippled, and still falling apart Enterprise struggling to catch up with the Vengeance while also trying to stop it from slamming head long into San Francisco would have been such an epic scene in a Star Trek film that even I think it would have made this movie cooler. Would have given the Enterprise something to do outside of being knocked out of a fight only after a few phaser blasts.

All that would have done is generated complaints that there's no way the Enterprise could have hoped to stop the Vengance with its tractor beams, which it couldn't. At that point there was little they could do to stop a ship that was several times the Enterprise's size & mass, they couldn't even possibly hope to even nudge it out of the way; tractors would probably do nothing but take the Enterprise on a good old fashioned Nantucket Sleigh Ride and even getting between SF & the Vengance would probably result in nothing but the Enterprise getting pulverized and the Vengance still crashing into SF.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

All that would have done is generated complaints that there's no way the Enterprise could have hoped to stop the Vengance with its tractor beams, which it couldn't.

How do you know? Do you know how powerful the ship's tractor beams are? Besides, I'm not talking about coming in between SF and the Vengeance in order to stop it mid air. I was thinking more along the lines of the Enterprise getting above the Vengeance and using it's tractor beam to push the ship down into the bay before it hit land. You could even use the footage that's available now to give a rough visual of how it would look now.

While earth serves as a backdrop for some of the story, the story is not about earth.

No. The Alien worlds served as a meager backdrop. Earth is treated as an important location where anything that happens to it is taken very seriously. All of this film's important moments all take place on it. Kirk gets demoted than promoted on Earth, Khan bombs London (not before following a human family going through their lives in London), Starfleet has an important meeting on Earth, Pike dies on Earth, Kirk wants to bring Khan to Earth, the Enterprise almost crashed on Earth, Kirk dies while the Enterprise is literally at Earth, the Vengeance crashes in SF, Khan is defeated on Earth, and Kirk gives a speech on Earth. If you really want to sell the idea that Earth isn't the center of the universe where a majority of the story must take place there, do what a lot of the other Star Trek series did by not having Earth in every one of your stories, especially one where the bad guy wants to attack it.

And it doesn't matter if Khan's attack on Earth was planned or spur of the moment. We're three films in a row where the bad guys specifically target Earth. If you want to bring up the whales again, know that Star Trek IV had two films before it that didn't involve Earth being in trouble, and the three films after IV followed suit.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

If you want to bring up the whales again, know that Star Trek IV had two films before it that didn't involve Earth being in trouble, and the three films after IV followed suit.

Not Earth in trouble but Earth was featured in ST-V, ST-VI, Generations, First Contact (and in trouble again), Nemesis (in trouble not featured), ST '09, and ST-Into Darkness. Weather you like it or not, this is par for the course for Trek films. Please tell me despite the many times this has been pointed out to you specifically, you really are not this obtuse.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

You clearly need to go back and watch that scene again.

I'm pretty sure that after the Enterprise is knocked out of warp, their weapon systems are all gone. Never fired one single shot in the whole movie.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

I'm pretty sure that after the Enterprise is knocked out of warp, their weapon systems are all gone. Never fired one single shot in the whole movie.

My mistake, I thought you were suggesting the Vengeance took the Enterprise out with a few phaser shots. See, it's ok to admit you are wrong sometimes. You could be much better versed in the practice.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Not Earth in trouble but Earth was featured in ST-V, ST-VI, Generations, First Contact (and in trouble again), Nemesis (in trouble not featured), ST '09, and ST-Into Darkness. Weather you like it or not, this is par for the course for Trek films. Please tell me despite the many times this has been pointed out to you specifically, you really are not this obtuse.

Earth in STII, III, V, VI, VII, VIIII doesn't really bother me because most of the important moments in those films don't take place anywhere near Earth or have the planet be put in any kind of danger. The climax in TWOK was in the Mutara system, TSFS was on Genesis, TFF was in the center of the galaxy, TUC was in the Khitomer system, STG was in the Veridian system and STI was in the Briar Patch. All of these climaxes had nothing to do with Earth being in danger or even taking place on it. The entire last act of STID is set at Earth and has the final climactic battle in the streets of San Francisco. It's not that difficult to see the difference in setting.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Earth in STII, III, V, VI, VII, VIIII doesn't really bother me because most of the important moments in those films don't take place anywhere near Earth or have the planet be put in any kind of danger. The climax in TWOK was in the Mutara system, TSFS was on Genesis, TFF was in the center of the galaxy, TUC was in the Khitomer system, STG was in the Veridian system and STI was in the Briar Patch. All of these climaxes had nothing to do with Earth being in danger or even taking place on it. The entire last act of STID is set at Earth and has the final climactic battle in the streets of San Francisco. Not that difficult to see the difference.

So we need your own internal qualifier to define what is excessive use/scenes/plot points which are Earth centric? Maybe if you posted a primer on how to do that your argument would have more merit.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

No. The Alien worlds served as a meager backdrop. Earth is treated as an important location where anything that happens to it is taken very seriously. All of this film's important moments all take place on it. Kirk gets demoted than promoted on Earth, Khan bombs London (not before following a human family going through their lives in London), Starfleet has an important meeting on Earth, Pike dies on Earth, Kirk wants to bring Khan to Earth, the Enterprise almost crashed on Earth, Kirk dies while the Enterprise is literally at Earth, the Vengeance crashes in SF, Khan is defeated on Earth, and Kirk gives a speech on Earth. If you really want to sell the idea that Earth isn't the center of the universe where a majority of the story must take place there, do what a lot of the other Star Trek series did by not having Earth in every one of your stories, especially one where the bad guy wants to attack it.

And it doesn't matter if Khan's attack on Earth was planned or spur of the moment. We're three films in a row where the bad guys specifically target Earth. If you want to bring up the whales again, know that Star Trek IV had two films before it that didn't involve Earth being in trouble, and the three films after IV followed suit.

First of all Jeyl, it's disingenuous of you to cut off half of my argument. I assume attributing my words to Riceball was accidental.

Everything that you described, is earth serving as a backdrop to the story.

With Nero, his idea is to destroy earth. Khan has no such designs. STID isn't about earth. It's about the crew of the Enterprise unwrapping the Marcus/Khan conspiracy.

Starfleet has an important meeting on earth because that's where cannon has established Starfleet Headquarters is. The writers didn't put that meeting on earth solely in service of the story. Likewise, Pike dies on earth because that's where the meeting is, not because it services the story by having him on earth.

Conceptually, this is completely different than Trek IV where the entire emotional weight and urgency of the film is because it's earth that's being threatened.

Pointing out that things happen on earth in STID is not a cogent argument to the point that the film is really about earth.

To that logic:
TMP: Earth is threatened. V'ger was created by Earth.
II: The simulator is on earth.
III: McCoy starts acting crazy in earth orbit. Spacedock is at earth. Enterprise gets decommissioned at earth. Sarek talks to Kirk on earth.
IV: No need here...
V: They were camping on earth. "God" appears as earth's God.
VI: Meeting on earth. Spacedock is at earth. Crew leaves from earth. Earth authors are quoted. Earth actually plays a critical role in the plot in a counter-intuitive way in that they cannot return to earth.

Point being, yes, earth features in STID. But the plot is not about saving earth per se. The conflict in the script is between Marcus/Khan and the crew of the Enterprise. TMP and IV were the films that were "earth in peril," as was ST09. STID involved earth, but only to the extent that would logically flow from cannon (I.E. Starfleet headquarters is on earth). Why would Kirk bring Khan back to another planet if Khan blew up an earth city? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

And sure, you could make the argument that half of the film could have been set somewhere else (Khan could have blown up a remote Federation research center in system X, and the last act could have taken place on any planet), but you still would have seen elements of earth. But that doesn't mean that the story was really about earth. Earth is just a setting in the film.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

First of all Jeyl, it's disingenuous of you to cut off half of my argument. I assume attributing my words to Riceball was accidental.

Everything that you described, is earth serving as a backdrop to the story.

With Nero, his idea is to destroy earth. Khan has no such designs. STID isn't about earth. It's about the crew of the Enterprise unwrapping the Marcus/Khan conspiracy.

Starfleet has an important meeting on earth because that's where cannon has established Starfleet Headquarters is. The writers didn't put that meeting on earth solely in service of the story. Likewise, Pike dies on earth because that's where the meeting is, not because it services the story by having him on earth.

Conceptually, this is completely different than Trek IV where the entire emotional weight and urgency of the film is because it's earth that's being threatened.

Pointing out that things happen on earth in STID is not a cogent argument to the point that the film is really about earth.

To that logic:
TMP: Earth is threatened. V'ger was created by Earth.
II: The simulator is on earth.
III: McCoy starts acting crazy in earth orbit. Spacedock is at earth. Enterprise gets decommissioned at earth. Sarek talks to Kirk on earth.
IV: No need here...
V: They were camping on earth. "God" appears as earth's God.
VI: Meeting on earth. Spacedock is at earth. Crew leaves from earth. Earth authors are quoted. Earth actually plays a critical role in the plot in a counter-intuitive way in that they cannot return to earth.

Point being, yes, earth features in STID. But the plot is not about saving earth per se. The conflict in the script is between Marcus/Khan and the crew of the Enterprise. TMP and IV were the films that were "earth in peril," as was ST09. STID involved earth, but only to the extent that would logically flow from cannon (I.E. Starfleet headquarters is on earth). Why would Kirk bring Khan back to another planet if Khan blew up an earth city? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

And sure, you could make the argument that half of the film could have been set somewhere else (Khan could have blown up a remote Federation research center in system X, and the last act could have taken place on any planet), but you still would have seen elements of earth. But that doesn't mean that the story was really about earth. Earth is just a setting in the film.

THANK YOU.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Also would point out that Jeyl argues that nothing important in STID happens which is not on earth, which is clearly not true.

The opening sequence, for which Kirk ultimately gets demoted, is not on earth. This establishes Kirk's recklessness and provides motivation for him to prove himself for the rest of the film.

Khan beams to Qonos and takes out a squad of Klingons, this scene establishes Khan's prowess of being 'super human.'

Scotty discovers the Vengeance near Jupiter, establishing the secret and covert nature of Sector 31.

The discovery of the crew happens on an uninhabited planetoid, from this we learn Khan's motivations.

Again, I'm not arguing that you have to love the story or even like it. But to say that all the important moments in STID happen on earth, or the moments which we should take seriously happen on earth, that's just not true.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Anyone appreciate Voyager more since they were as far from Earth as they possibly could get?
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Anyone appreciate Voyager more since they were as far from Earth as they possibly could get?

I like Voyager, I enjoy watching the series, but it less then TOS,TNG, and DS9 by a long shot. But clearly that is what he wants. It's also why it is such a fools errand to compare Trek TV to Trek film.
 
Re: New STAR TREK 3

Anyone appreciate Voyager more since they were as far from Earth as they possibly could get?

I would seriously appreciate a Star Trek thread that doesn't degenerate into the same argument about Earth every freaking time. Holy S***!
 
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