ROTJ Stormtrooper Armour
- Thread starter JoeR
- Start date
Nothing like waking up to love from our members. :lol Guess I should have stayed up all night to monitor this since anyone who knows anything about trooper armor knew this thread was going to devolve the minute Amish Trooper made the comment about it not getting any more accurate than this new set of armor. In my minds eye... I could see Martin on the Orca, chumming the water...
Darth Niob, one of the issues when things like this come up is that your friends are quick to tell you if they get a reprimand from the mods, but your perceived enemies don't. While we might make a comment in a thread, we generally don't publicly post who we reprimand or who we talk to about asituation and because we don't do so, the consensus from the aggrieved side is always that nothing has been done. That is not the case as many things are handled behind the scenes and the membership is not always privy to the outcome unless there is a banning involved.
While I won't speculate on the purpose behind Amish Trooper's post, it was inevitable that it would draw a response from Gino (and if Matt G were still a member of the board, I am sure he would have felt a compulsion to chime in as well). Clarifications have been made and rebuttals to clarifications have been made. Photos have been posted from both sides and I would like to think all that needs to be said has been said and people can now make up their own minds. There seems to be a disagreement on the thigh pieces, and that is fine... but at this point there really isn't any point in taking it further.
I know that those who have issue with Gino are always going to see us as being in Gino's favor, just as Gino often feels we are biased against him and in your favor. It is something we can't win on and aren't going to try. We take each issue on a case by case basis and handle it the best we can.
I am going to attempt to delve into something here in an effort to explain some things even though this really isn't the place and is derailing this thread further, but since I know many of the people who need to see this will... I will continue. My reason for doing so is in the hopes of you seeing our mindset since it is so often that BOTH sides simply jump to the "you are being biased" answer.
This site is a discussion board. It is primarily focused on the accurate recreation of props, costumes, and models we love. However, "accurate" is a somewhat elusive term and difficult to fully quantify. For every person, accurate is something a bit different. Because of that, there will always be some differences of opinion which means there will always be some debate. I think many here have been babied and sheltered so long (not pointing to anyone in particular) that you collectively feel it is the duty of the staff to stop anyone from disagreeing with you. That is NOT our role and if we did that we would not have collectively come to many of the discoveries we have made in the past few years. We would still think Obi-Wans's lightsaber was a bike handle and that Han's flash hider was a fire extinguisher. Debate is inevitable and it can be a very good thing. No one likes being told they are wrong and while some facts can be posted, others are more vague or are simply a feeling. If we didn't allow for opposing points of view, the purpose of this site would become almost completely useless and I think many have come to expect that any criticism is bad and should be disallowed. We disagree.
Sadly, over the years, cliques have formed. Like debate, this is inevitable. However, it fosters a competitive spirit (which I know some people thrive on, but I personally find distasteful) in which it becomes less important that your efforts match the original and more important that your efforts are better than the other guy's efforts. While no one will openly admit this is their approach, we see it all the time, and it is a lowest common denominator approach instead of a striving for perfection approach.
If Gino has one advantage over those who have the most issue with him, it is this: we have spent so much time and energy berating him and telling him what he has done wrong and how he could have approached it differently that he knows what we expect and are looking for. It is something of a situation in which the problem child gets more attention. Gino knows exactly what we expect of him, which is a good thing and a bad thing for him. It is good because he knows what will get him in trouble and what won't and so he can post in a manner that might make other members upset because they see anything he says as an attack, but he knows we will be ok with it. It is bad because with knowledge comes responsibility and because we have spent an inordinate amount of time telling Gino what we expect, he is on a pretty short leash... I would reference last month's banning as a perfect example of that. Because we have not talked with many of you as much as we have with Gino, you get considerably more leniency than he does.
Is Gino special? Absolutely not. We spend a LOT of time writing people and talking them through things or telling them to knock it off or telling them to approach it in a different manner. Members will either eventually come around to understand what we are trying to do, or eventually they will show themselves to the door. It really is that simple.
Since it was also inevitable that this was going to be compared to the TIE helmet thread from just a few days ago (who didn't see that one coming... come on, raise your hand), let me give my perspective on the two issues, because they are VERY similar in the beginning but the way they were handled was very different.
TIE helmet thread: Gino makes a statement that his helmets are "All cast from original."
RoTJ armor thread: Amish trooper makes a statement that "It doesn't get more accurate than" the armor presented.
Both statements were lightning rods and anyone who knows anything knew that both would draw the "other side" into the thread. Not necessarily saying they were purposefully baiting, but we saw it coming.
I am not going to get into a blow by blow, but from those two points of origin, the responses (from my perception) diverged significantly. In Gino's TIE thread, multiple people who have a long history with Gino came in and asked very leading questions, made snarky remarks, or posted questions that clearly had no answer or were questions that couldn't be answered. When you step back and look at this site and realize we have 15,000 - 20,000 unique people coming to this site EVERY day, one has to ask, what are those 20,000 people gaining/learning from these kind of snarky posts? In the RotJ armor thread, Gino's approach thus far (and I think he has more than made his point, so I don't think a dead horse needs to be beaten) has been to respond on what he feels is a factual basis. There is no name calling. There is no carefully worded statements or questions. There is just point blank statements from Gino's perspective. When we step back and look at this, what I see from the perspective of the masses who come here is that they are getting two sides to a story and evidence that will allow them to make up their own mind. When you get snarky and start name calling, you undermine your own efforts and come off looking petty and your position looks weak. Make your posts based on "fact" even if that fact is only fact as you see and believe it. Instead of looking at the microcosm of issue that you have with whomever, look at this from a broad perspective of whether or not your post is helping to educate the masses and adding valuable content to the collective knowledge of the site and those who read it.
I could go on and on but I feel like I have written a book already. I won't continue to discuss this here as I don't want to derail this thread any further so if you want to discuss it, we can either start another thread in the OT or you can PM me with your thoughts or concerns. I don't know if this has shed any light on things or not, but I hope it helps.
STEVE THE SWEDE
Sr Member
Awesome dudes! Fantastic to finally see this finished! ROTJ troopers rules, am I the only one totally feed up with ANH/ESB style troopers!?
Cheers,
Steve.
Cheers,
Steve.
T-VIRUS
New Member
Sonnenschein
Active Member
Awesomer armour and I'd be proud to own one someday.
Honest and sweet guys you are!
Honest and sweet guys you are!
sskunky
Sr Member
Thanks Art and well written.
Cheers guys. Too be honest I have always been an ANH/ESB fan and always thought the ROTJ to be a weird squashed version. But they have really grown on me in the last year or two. I guess we nearly always see it's older brothers..... It's nice to have a change.
Cheers guys. Too be honest I have always been an ANH/ESB fan and always thought the ROTJ to be a weird squashed version. But they have really grown on me in the last year or two. I guess we nearly always see it's older brothers..... It's nice to have a change.
Trap Joe
Sr Member
Thanks a lot, that you have taken yourself the time to share us your view about the situation, Art. It really does feel good, to hear your point.
I see it like this: We all are hobbyists, and want to get the best replica as possible in our home. It´s always good to bring things that seemed to be perfect to a new, more improved level. We discover new details on new reference pictures and when we are watching the real props - if we have the opportunity to see them in person. It is good, we do have a discussion forum here to talk about and share our new work. For bringing ourselves forward, I find it neccesarily important, people behave helpful, friendly and not rude. Claimes like "I know anything for sure, I have the best, but will not tell anyone anything, I can tell for sure that your´s isn´t an original, nor give us any answer" are of no concern. Rude, selfish and greedy behaviour makes me really feel sad, because this destroys the good, helpful spirit plus the fun and brings in bad vibrations.
Maybe I finished Star Wars prop projects like Vaders, Yodas, Stormtroopers, Chewbaccas as a pioneer to the most movie correct level possible, back in the 80s and 90 when many just were dreaming of it. Although I will always do thread members with much respect. That´s why I enjoy seeing how people nowadays do dissolve problems and build things together with all helpful tools, references and members help. I love to feel inspired again to continue "the old game" of improving my old veteran stuff, until it will be perfect. That´s what I call A HOBBY.
To have one place to share problems with members, AND HOW WE COULD DISSOLVE THEM, without any fear to be banned or flame war would be a great thing. But this will only work, if all of us - myself included - will tread members fair, help-and respectfull.
If you want, start a discussion thraed in the OT, I think it could be helpful.
back to topic: I´m also a ROTJ Trooper geek. I fell in love with them, since I touched the troopers in MOMI London 1989. I also had the opportunity to cast one from the inside in 1999. I like ROTJ troopers nearly as much as the ESB (which are my favourite ones) and ANH troopers.
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I see it like this: We all are hobbyists, and want to get the best replica as possible in our home. It´s always good to bring things that seemed to be perfect to a new, more improved level. We discover new details on new reference pictures and when we are watching the real props - if we have the opportunity to see them in person. It is good, we do have a discussion forum here to talk about and share our new work. For bringing ourselves forward, I find it neccesarily important, people behave helpful, friendly and not rude. Claimes like "I know anything for sure, I have the best, but will not tell anyone anything, I can tell for sure that your´s isn´t an original, nor give us any answer" are of no concern. Rude, selfish and greedy behaviour makes me really feel sad, because this destroys the good, helpful spirit plus the fun and brings in bad vibrations.
Maybe I finished Star Wars prop projects like Vaders, Yodas, Stormtroopers, Chewbaccas as a pioneer to the most movie correct level possible, back in the 80s and 90 when many just were dreaming of it. Although I will always do thread members with much respect. That´s why I enjoy seeing how people nowadays do dissolve problems and build things together with all helpful tools, references and members help. I love to feel inspired again to continue "the old game" of improving my old veteran stuff, until it will be perfect. That´s what I call A HOBBY.
To have one place to share problems with members, AND HOW WE COULD DISSOLVE THEM, without any fear to be banned or flame war would be a great thing. But this will only work, if all of us - myself included - will tread members fair, help-and respectfull.
If you want, start a discussion thraed in the OT, I think it could be helpful.
back to topic: I´m also a ROTJ Trooper geek. I fell in love with them, since I touched the troopers in MOMI London 1989. I also had the opportunity to cast one from the inside in 1999. I like ROTJ troopers nearly as much as the ESB (which are my favourite ones) and ANH troopers.
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OldKen
Master Member
I completely agree. Used to HATE them. I mean even as a kid, The TK's were my biggest complaint about ROTJ. They just didn't look right. Instead of "teeth" they looked to have "lips". Just odd looking in comparison to my favorite design of all time. :unsure
Now? I think they are awesome! I have stared at ANH and ESB helmets for soo long, I just love the ROTJs now.
Amish Trooper
Master Member
Ok so I see I was mentioned in Arts post and just wanted to respond to a couple of points. 1 being at no time was I bating Gino with my comment. I was stating my personal opinion and also what I feel is fact.
Gino as you liked to explain in your post does not word things a certain way because of his past history here with the mods and since so he now comes at you with a different approach but the intent is the same at that is why he should be reprimanded. So instead of poking with a stick directly he just found a different way to poke with the stick but in the end he achieves the same results.
We have seen Gino repeatedly make bold claims not only in his thread but others as well and it is sad that we can't question him or we are considered to be trolling or baiting. It hasn't just been the Tie thread but also when he launched his V3. There were us who noticed it wasn't what it was made out to be and then it turned into a debate and people were warned and yet it happens here in this thread.
Gino did the same thing on FISD and the only conclusion that was come to was that he was wrong as he is here.
He was asked to not post by the Op and the OP's partner and yet he ignored that. If that isn't trolling or baiting then I'm confused.
Great work Joe and Mark glad I'm helping with this.
Gino as you liked to explain in your post does not word things a certain way because of his past history here with the mods and since so he now comes at you with a different approach but the intent is the same at that is why he should be reprimanded. So instead of poking with a stick directly he just found a different way to poke with the stick but in the end he achieves the same results.
We have seen Gino repeatedly make bold claims not only in his thread but others as well and it is sad that we can't question him or we are considered to be trolling or baiting. It hasn't just been the Tie thread but also when he launched his V3. There were us who noticed it wasn't what it was made out to be and then it turned into a debate and people were warned and yet it happens here in this thread.
Gino did the same thing on FISD and the only conclusion that was come to was that he was wrong as he is here.
He was asked to not post by the Op and the OP's partner and yet he ignored that. If that isn't trolling or baiting then I'm confused.
Great work Joe and Mark glad I'm helping with this.
I am not a fan of the RotJ at all, but I agree that is is nice to see something new and different and I am sure there is a market for these suits since the ANH market has been over-over-over-saturated. As you said, while I personally don't care for that style, it is nice to see a change and will be interesting to see some completed suits on members!
Trap Joe
Sr Member
I completely agree. Used to HATE them. I mean even as a kid, The TK's were my biggest complaint about ROTJ. They just didn't look right. Instead of "teeth" they looked to have "lips". Just odd looking in comparison to my favorite design of all time. :unsure
Now? I think they are awesome! I have stared at ANH and ESB helmets for soo long, I just love the ROTJs now.
Funny I felt the same way when I was a kid.:lol
GINO
Sr Member
That is not the case at all.
What have I said about this armor exactly that you think I am wrong about?
I can address it if you let me know.
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Amish Trooper
Master Member
As much as you would like to continue derailing Joe and Marks thread I am just going to quote you.
"I disagree with your assessments.
I'm not interested in discussing/debating them"
Live with it that there are others with just as equal if not better quality accurate molds plus they are giving to community and not using or taking. I have nothing else to say.
Great work guys.
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GINO
Sr Member
I would very much love to see them.
As far as I know or have seen they do not exist.
I also do not wish to continue debating in this thread, but have to understand that if you call me out, that it's appropriate for me to respond if I so wish.
Don't want me to respond, stop calling me out where I have to defend myself.
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As far as I know or have seen they do not exist.
I also do not wish to continue debating in this thread, but have to understand that if you call me out, that it's appropriate for me to respond if I so wish.
Don't want me to respond, stop calling me out where I have to defend myself.
.
Amish Trooper
Master Member
Alright... that is enough. Start another thread if you want to continue this separate line of discussion. Let's bring this one back to the CFO armor.
so how big of a hit will my bank account take :lol
sskunky
Sr Member
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