True bravery isn't a respectable attribute?
Questions About Bond Films that You Have been Afraid to Ask SPOILERS
- Thread starter thegreatgalling
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True bravery isn't a respectable attribute?
Of course it is but the comment is made out of guilt, not respect.
He knows that the record will show that she was weak, disobeyed orders, and in the end died because of her own lack of will. So, out of a little bit of guilt he adds "but she was brave".
Respect
- esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability:
How can you insist that Bond has no respect for Fields when he literally insisted to M that she showed a quality that is highly respectable?
Bond didn't do this out of guilt. He did this out of anger. Fields was only supposed to bring him back, and she willfully disobeyed orders in order to help Bond find the person who tried to kill M. Oh, and 'using her' implies that she was an unwilling participant to further Bond's goals. When was that ever the case? She knew what she was doing the whole time and willingly went along with it! And she was murdered as a result. There is respect there. And how can Bond, a cold hearted professional killer let a little thing like guilt coax him into doing something for an agent he had no respect for? That doesn't make any sense.
Because at no point until that moment does he show anything that would even remotely imply that he respects her. Let's take the example of Mathis, someone who he clearly DOES respect in QOS.
Bond ASKS him to help him, Mathis is hesitant but then is convinced. He has meaningful conversation with him and trusts him to do his own thing. When finally he's killed Bond is sad for a moment and then dumps him taking his money. Why? Ya there's a little bit of remorse there but he respected him while he was alive and nothing he does now matters.
On the flip side, Fields is unwilling at first but seems to be won over by the equivalent of "shut up and do as your told" and a wink then some bed time. Little trust, no respect. She dies, he feels a little bad, tells M to not make her out to be a complete tool. "She was brave". Nah, she was whipped from the moment she saw him and used.
In this scene kinda the same thing.
Not so willfully. She was smitten so she did as she was told.
She was unwilling but lacked the will power to stick to it. As evidence in my post a few posts up that you chose to ignore to pursue your straw man.
Nope. She was never convinced, she was smitten. The exact thing one would think that you'd be disgusted with.
Nope! None seen.
Written in to make her seem less like a complete tool if you want the honest answer, but in universe I see it as more pity stemming from guilt. There's no big scene, just one line, "I want it in there that she was brave". Makes him seem like less of a knob.
No respect while she was alive, one line after she died. You have a very weak argument.
Solo4114
Master Member
How about this.
For the most part, throughout the Bond franchise, the theme has been that women were not respected, and were at best partners in the bedroom. There are some notable deviations from this, like Melina Havelock, or Carey Lowell's character, or Tracy, or Vesper, or M herself, but by and large, women in the Bond franchise are viewed by Bond as weaker, inferior, or someone to serve his needs. The characters described above stand out because Bond broke his usual pattern with respect to women when dealing with them. But for them to stand out, the pattern must be established. Thus, one can say "Bond doesn't respect women" without it being a categorical always-across-the-board-no-deviation-EVAR statement. In general, he doesn't respect women. In general, he doesn't respect many people at all. I will say that Moore's take on the character showed more politeness, but even so there was that smugness that he displayed at times, and he could still get cheeky with his superiors.
For the most part, throughout the Bond franchise, the theme has been that women were not respected, and were at best partners in the bedroom. There are some notable deviations from this, like Melina Havelock, or Carey Lowell's character, or Tracy, or Vesper, or M herself, but by and large, women in the Bond franchise are viewed by Bond as weaker, inferior, or someone to serve his needs. The characters described above stand out because Bond broke his usual pattern with respect to women when dealing with them. But for them to stand out, the pattern must be established. Thus, one can say "Bond doesn't respect women" without it being a categorical always-across-the-board-no-deviation-EVAR statement. In general, he doesn't respect women. In general, he doesn't respect many people at all. I will say that Moore's take on the character showed more politeness, but even so there was that smugness that he displayed at times, and he could still get cheeky with his superiors.
Even when Bond "respects" (I'm still not convinced) these women it's tenuous at best.
Melina - Treated for most of the film like a pest that won't go away. Talked to like she's a little girl.
Pam Bouvier - Pouty whenever she sees another woman look at Bond. I didn't get a huge "respect" vibe there.
Tracy - Respected her enough to sleep with a bunch of women while they were dating. :lol
Vesper - For the first half of their relationship I see a conquest in the making, from the shower scene on I see a girl that needs protecting, from the hospital scene to her death I see two people blinded by a love that could never last even if she lived.
M - I agree. Already said this one.
That said, Solo you're absolutely right in that sometimes he strays from the norm. You're even more absolutely right when you say that there has to norm for that to happen!
Melina - Treated for most of the film like a pest that won't go away. Talked to like she's a little girl.
Pam Bouvier - Pouty whenever she sees another woman look at Bond. I didn't get a huge "respect" vibe there.
Tracy - Respected her enough to sleep with a bunch of women while they were dating. :lol
Vesper - For the first half of their relationship I see a conquest in the making, from the shower scene on I see a girl that needs protecting, from the hospital scene to her death I see two people blinded by a love that could never last even if she lived.
M - I agree. Already said this one.
That said, Solo you're absolutely right in that sometimes he strays from the norm. You're even more absolutely right when you say that there has to norm for that to happen!
IMIM2
Sr Member
IMHO: "less" respect for women or no respect for women in general (like Solo mentioned).
Just want to add that DC era, JB has been rebooted, so he may had some respect for women in the beginning and got less and less as he learned who to trust and who to be used.
With M, he trusted her, so respect goes along with trust. I remembered my first reaction when seeing Judi played M. The subliminal voice in my head is "He got no respect for women, but now, he need to deal with female superior?"
Even Q put a female voice in the car, so he will pay more attention. So Q also knows that he have less repect for women.
I am still unsettled by Tracy though (maybe the novel will give better picture).If JB got no respect for women, why he wanted to marry her anyway? He refused to accept the money, perhaps getting even with Tracy's father who helped him? Or in a twisted mind of his, he is actually helping Tracy for not being suicidal anymore?
Why in the earth,a womanizer like Bond, for no strong reason (I that I can think of) would ended up in marriage. "Sleeping around while still dating" is just Bond's nature. He even took advantage of "the new year's resolution" because it is not yet a new year.
I just read that Camille (QOS) is the only Bond girl that didn't end up sleeping with him, is that true? I was thinking about Kara Milovi, but in the very end, she also felt in JB's charm.
BTW, what would women's opinion about this particular James Bond character? My wife just told me: just enjoy the movie! :unsure
Just want to add that DC era, JB has been rebooted, so he may had some respect for women in the beginning and got less and less as he learned who to trust and who to be used.
With M, he trusted her, so respect goes along with trust. I remembered my first reaction when seeing Judi played M. The subliminal voice in my head is "He got no respect for women, but now, he need to deal with female superior?"
Even Q put a female voice in the car, so he will pay more attention. So Q also knows that he have less repect for women.
I am still unsettled by Tracy though (maybe the novel will give better picture).If JB got no respect for women, why he wanted to marry her anyway? He refused to accept the money, perhaps getting even with Tracy's father who helped him? Or in a twisted mind of his, he is actually helping Tracy for not being suicidal anymore?
Why in the earth,a womanizer like Bond, for no strong reason (I that I can think of) would ended up in marriage. "Sleeping around while still dating" is just Bond's nature. He even took advantage of "the new year's resolution" because it is not yet a new year.
I just read that Camille (QOS) is the only Bond girl that didn't end up sleeping with him, is that true? I was thinking about Kara Milovi, but in the very end, she also felt in JB's charm.
BTW, what would women's opinion about this particular James Bond character? My wife just told me: just enjoy the movie! :unsure
In the book anyway I got the impression that it was more the appeal of a "normal life" than anything else but he did love her. She's an anomaly for sure!
I've said it a couple times here but it's my wife's quote. "If you're looking for respect for women Bond isn't the franchise for you!" :lol
She understands that it's a character trait of his and accepts it for what it is. She watches other media for strong female characters who command respect.
Ya, respect or no he doesn't set out with the intent of getting people killed although obviously it's a strong possibility.
IMIM2
Sr Member
Finished watching YOLT.
Blofeld continuity with the JB continuum are confusing.
Yeah, JB went too far in YOLT. Japanese Bond? Really?
Ninjas were represented wrongly.
It was bad, so I looked up in IMDB goofs, to find some error.
Turned out IMDB had error on movie error too!
Funny fact that they had to make the Toyota without the roof because SC won't fit the car. It looked like his head sticking out without roof either.
Got lots of similarity with TSWLM too, including Nelie
Blofeld continuity with the JB continuum are confusing.
Yeah, JB went too far in YOLT. Japanese Bond? Really?
Ninjas were represented wrongly.
It was bad, so I looked up in IMDB goofs, to find some error.
Turned out IMDB had error on movie error too!
Funny fact that they had to make the Toyota without the roof because SC won't fit the car. It looked like his head sticking out without roof either.
Got lots of similarity with TSWLM too, including Nelie
Yep! Primarily because the films are out of order compared to the novels. So far as Blofeld entries go it should be OHMSS and THEN YOLT (DAF never had Blofeld in it at all).
Yep! :lol Japanese Bond isn't fooling anyone and is definitely a low point in the film. However! All arguments against this movie are rendered void by one line:
Ninja army in a volcano base!
Basically the exact same film, one in space, one on the water.
Yep. Now if only Drax's ships swallowed other shuttles! :lol
Bigdaddy
Master Member
I saw Goldfinger for the 1st time in 30 yrs, blew me away! I can't get over how good that movie is, because it had been so long I forgot pretty much everything except the girl painted gold. The gas being fake:suprise! Goldfinger's hidden uniform:suprise! The plane at the end:suprise! It was easily on par with FRWL, not better IMO but as good although the 2 seem to have very different tones. So that's #3, looks Thunderball is next, and will be the 1st Bond I've seen in HD .
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I saw Goldfinger for the 1st time in 30 yrs, blew me away! I can't get over how good that movie is, because it had been so long I forgot pretty much everything except the girl painted gold. The gas being fake:suprise! Goldfinger's hidden uniform:suprise! The plane at the end:suprise! It was easily on par with FRWL, not better IMO but as good although the 2 seem to have very different tones. So that's #3, looks Thunderball is next, and will be the 1st Bond I've seen in HD
thumbsup:thumbsupWow... To see Goldfinger again and to be surprised at the twists... I can't fathom it! Must have been a real treat! :thumbsup
Thunderball is a great film but definitely not as good as GF & FRWL in my opinion. You'll have to let us know what you think! Can't wait until you get to OHMSS...
KojiroVance
Sr Member
I think THUNDERBALL was the beginning of the "bigger bigger, bigger" cycle trying to top GOLDFINGER. Its a matter if taste deciding if it did...
// Sent from my mobile. Misspellings happen. //
// Sent from my mobile. Misspellings happen. //
Didn't start to get out of hand until YOLT though. (still an enjoyable flick)
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