Predator Culture, Biology And Technology

[Estelle]

"Prey" is a horrible novel. S Perry, is my arch enemy! I have had this book sitting
On my shelf for six years, can bare to force myself to finish!

Predators and venom...hmmmm, I have shared my views on this subject, or rather
the subject of pred feeding habits elsewhere , and this came up. While I do tend to lead away from the
idea of venomous preds, I must say, Lflank, your theroy is so well thought out that I
may reconsider.
I see pred diets consisting heavily of fungi, mollusks and other soft body invertebrates.
I just can't imagine those jaws of theirs handling much beyond that. They seem to lack molars
and carnasial(sp) teeth, which are the holmark of a great deal of carnivores. I can't picture them
with functional fangs, the teeth just don't seem right for it. Do you think perhaps they maybe " venomous " in the sort of way komodo dragons are? Having a bite that causes sepsis?
~Estelle

 

[damagecase]

Well I think Lflank's theory would help with the feeding question in that most venom also aids in digesting the food. It kinda breaks it down even before it enters the digestive tract. For example, spiders and scorpions more or less suck out their prey's tissues after envenomation. So, a highly functioning mouth with an array of teeth would not be necessary. Actually they wouldn't be required to so much more than suck and swallow.

Now before we go further we have to understand that we are making the assumption that preds are likely carbon based and thus similar in dietary needs to all carbon based life forms. Which doesn't seem like that much of a leap but its more definitive than what we have. I think that its a fair assumption but I want to make sure everyone is on board.

I would argue though, that at some point in the preds development as a species, likely very early on, it would have been almost exclusively carnivorous and perhaps once leaving the trees as it were, began to diversify their diet.

 

[damagecase]

Lets change gears a bit though for a minute. I would like to discuss the xenomorph's role in predator culture. The Perry book explores the idea but I think its poorly done. And sticking with our theme of preds as natuarlistic in nature, I would argue that xenos may in fact be a manufactured species. Something that has been engineered to serve a purpose of some kind. Now there origin is, if possible, more murky than the predators so we have a lot of work to do with them as well.

I'd like to agree on some ground rules with the whole AVP relationship. Primarily that there is one and that most if not all the attempts at explaining it have missed the mark.

 

[Lflank]

[background=rgb(24, 24, 24)]As to the entire venom on a pred idea[/background][background=rgb(24, 24, 24)], well its kinda grown on me. My question now is this: would the modern representation of the predator retain a highly toxic venom, being that because of social/cultural and technological reasons the need for such venom would be diminished? Also, is it fair to speculate that this ancient tree dwelling predator had a much larger, stronger mandible structure considering that its dependence on them for survival would be increased?[/background]

It may indeed have atrophied over time, just as hominid canine teeth did, since once you get an effective technology (even a sharpened rock) you no longer need the biological weapon. The current mandibles as depicted in the movies certainly seem enough to me to deliver a venomous bite, though. Many spiders have very weak jaws--they just bite, run out of range, and wait for the venom to do its thing. I've seen southern black widow spiders successfully kill and eat the Anolis lizards that run around all over Florida. Those lizards are small to us, but they are enormous compared to the spider--and the spider just gives one quick bite, runs away to wait, then has dinner once the lizard is paralyzed. (It helps that black widow silk is extraordinarily strong and makes a very very tough web.)

Komodo dragons are a weird case, since they depend a lot on bacteria in their mouths for their venomous bite, but they also do indeed have very mild venom in their saliva--indeed, some researchers have concluded that ALL snakes and lizards (they are very closely related) have saliva that is at least very mildly venomous, at least to their preferred prey. The Komodo may well be a case where it once had much stronger venom of its own, and lost it once the bacteria began to fill that role.

 

[Lflank]

I see pred diets consisting heavily of fungi, mollusks and other soft body invertebrates.
I just can't imagine those jaws of theirs handling much beyond that.

It's the weak jaws and small teeth that make me think it is venomous. Like a spider. Spiders have very weak jaws and small toothless mouths---they can't really chew or tear their prey. So the venom, once injected, first paralyzes/kills the prey, then turns all its internal tissues into a liquid, like soup. The spider then only has to slurp out that soup. It doesn't need teeth or strong jaws for that, and it can still eat prey that is much much larger than it is, even when the prey is encased in a very strong exoskeleton. (Scorpions do the same thing, but scorpions have pretty strong jaws that let them tear open their prey to get at the soup easier.) I see the Pred feeding in much the same way. It would explain the tiny teeth and relatively weak mandibles. Since their food is "predigested" by the venom, all they need is a small toothless sucking mouth to slurp it up.

 

[Lflank]

I would argue that xenos may in fact be a manufactured species. Something that has been engineered to serve a purpose of some kind. Now there origin is, if possible, more murky than the predators so we have a lot of work to do with them as well.

The consensus even pre-Prometheus seemed to be that the xeno was deliberately engineered, genetically, as a biological weapon, which is why it has the cool-looking biomechanical tubes all over. The majority opinion was that the Space Jockey species from the original "Alien" movie was the species that created the xenomorph. How the Preds found it is anybody's guess, but once they found it, it would certainly appeal to them for use in ritual hunts as the Ultimate Prey.

I remember reading long ago (and now I don't remember where) the idea that the Pred species doesn't bother with warfare--if attacked they simply unleash the xeno on the attackers and wipe them out, thereby using the xeno for its presumed intended purpose.

Perhaps the Prometheus movie will answer some of the questions about the origin of the xenos.

As I noted earlier, though, whoever designed the whole movie xeno life cycle and structure for the films, knew an awful lot about insect biology.

 

[Lflank]

Now before we go further we have to understand that we are making the assumption that preds are likely carbon based and thus similar in dietary needs to all carbon based life forms. Which doesn't seem like that much of a leap but its more definitive than what we have. I think that its a fair assumption but I want to make sure everyone is on board.

Well, we do know that the Pred was eating beef in the LA warehouse, so it's biochemistry must be at least similar enough to ours to allow it to digest and use the tissues of terrestrial organisms.

On the other hand, its blood is very different from ours, so if it uses oxygen as its energizer, it has a very different way of transporting it than we do. Or it may have an entirely different way of metabolizing, perhaps without using oxygen at all (even on earth there are some bacteria for whom oxygen is a deadly poison, and they metabolize without it. It doesn't produce as much energy as oxygen does, though.) We do know that the bio mask may have as one of its functions delivering the Pred's native atmospheric mix--but then we also know that the unmasked Pred can survive Earth's oxygen-rich atmosphere without the bio mask.

 

[Lflank]

Raccoons actually lack a thumb and I think opussoms only have a partially functioning thumb.

As an aside, racoons do have thumbs--their front feet look sort of like little human hands (although their thumb is not offset as much as ours and they don't have the dexterity that we have--the human ability to touch their thumb to all of their fingertips is something no other animal, not even a chimp, can do).

Opossums are weird--they actually have better-developed thumbs on their back feet than their front.

 

[damagecase]

I think marsupials in general are a divination of mammals, generally speaking. Australia must have been issolated for a long time is my only assumption which does not explain opossums...

As to the Aliens xeno life cycle, I believe that was more or less Jim Cameron's brain child. I know Ridley Scott kinda had a different idea entirely about them so I'm very interested in seeing Prometheus this weekend. But yeah, definately a huge insect influence on the xenos of the AVP universe.

 

[Estelle]

On the other hand, its blood is very different from ours, so if it uses oxygen as its energizer, it has a very different way of transporting it than we do. Or it may have an entirely different way of metabolizing, perhaps without using oxygen at all (even on earth there are some bacteria for whom oxygen is a deadly poison, and they metabolize without it. It doesn't produce as much energy as oxygen does, though.) We do know that the bio mask may have as one of its functions delivering the Pred's native atmospheric mix--but then we also know that the unmasked Pred can survive Earth's oxygen-rich atmosphere without the bio mask.

I'd say it's possible Predators transport oxygen nearly the same way humans do, via closed circulatory system, and the similarities may, stop there.
Aside from the blood, the Predators heart rate/rythem is equally as strange. It's been described as a quadrupled roll. It has four " beats" instead of
two. Maybe this somehow allows them to use oxygen proficiently.

 

[damagecase]

I know its been touched on in some graphics and perhaps some novels but what if they require a different gas other than oxygen? Since they seem to be able to breathe on earth, maybe its another natural element. Wiki answers has this formula:

• Nitrogen (N2) 78.084%
• Oxygen (O[sub]2[/sub]) 20.946%
• Argon (Ar) 0.934%
• Carbon dioxide (CO[sub]2[/sub]) 0.0383 %
• Neon (Ne) 0.001818 %
• Helium (He) 0.000524 %
• Methane (CH[sub]4[/sub]) 0.0001745 %
• Krypton (Kr) 0.000114%
• Hydrogen (H[sub]2[/sub]) 0.000055 %
• There is also a varying amount of water vapor, depending on the altitude and conditions where it is measured

Maybe they breathe nitrogen but have a higher concentration of it on there home world? The reason I'm kinda against O2 as their air is it is part (maybe all) of the reason blood is red, right? Maybe they breathe Neon... that would be weird...

Found this:

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] Presence of a metal, Iron makes our blood red. Why do we need Iron as a metal?Some living things have different metals in their transport system. For example, crabs use copper in their transport system which gives them blue blood and sea shrimps have green blood as they use the metal vanadium. Different metals give different colors.[/background]​

Apparently our blood is red because that is the color iron turns when it is exposed to oxygen (oxidizes). So it appears they could have green blood and still use oxygen and they merely have a different metal transport system... Wow I learned something...lol​

 

[damagecase]

As to the heart rate, hmm this poses another tangent that must be explored. Preds physiology is completely alien to us so I think we could have some fun with this. Having a "double/rolling" heart beat could be indicative of, in my opinion, a binary heart. Which would be a very interesting adaption which could allow, at least in my opinion, the pred to suffer a great deal of damage and remain functional.

This seems plausible at least.

 

[Lflank]

Maybe they breathe nitrogen but have a higher concentration of it on there home world? The reason I'm kinda against O2 as their air is it is part (maybe all) of the reason blood is red, right? Maybe they breathe Neon... that would be weird...

Well now you are talking about two different things . . . . oxygen is the element we use to release energy through metabolism, and iron is the element we use to transport that oxygen throughout our body (the presence of iron is why our blood is red). As you correctly point out, both of those vary a bit on earth, though. So Preds could indeed use different elements for both metabolization and for transporting their metabolizer.

As a matter of pure chemistry, there are only a certain number of elements that would work in each role. Neon and helium, for example, aren't well suited for either, because they are chemically inert and do not form many chemical reactions. So it'd be limited to elements that react in about the same way that oxygen and iron do (and indeed there are earth organisms that use sulphur instead of oxygen, and copper instead of iron). That leaves some pretty exotic elements like selenium, ruthenium or osmium.

 

[Lflank]

As to the heart rate, hmm this poses another tangent that must be explored. Preds physiology is completely alien to us so I think we could have some fun with this. Having a "double/rolling" heart beat could be indicative of, in my opinion, a binary heart. Which would be a very interesting adaption which could allow, at least in my opinion, the pred to suffer a great deal of damage and remain functional.

This seems plausible at least.

The Star Trek folks ran with that idea---they depicted the Klingons as having duplicates of many major organs so they can survive battle damage.

 

[Lflank]

I'd say it's possible Predators transport oxygen nearly the same way humans do, via closed circulatory system, and the similarities may, stop there.
Aside from the blood, the Predators heart rate/rythem is equally as strange. It's been described as a quadrupled roll. It has four " beats" instead of
two. Maybe this somehow allows them to use oxygen proficiently.

Even on earth there are several varieties of cardio-vascular systems. Reptiles have three-chambered hearts; mammals and birds have four (though crocodiles have four-chambered hearts also--in many ways crocodilians are closer to birds and mammals than they are to reptiles). Birds also have a specialized breathing system in which air always moves in one direction, not in and out like a mammalian lung, making birds super-efficient oxygen extractors. So yes, it would be entirely possible that the Pred has some completely different method of extracting and circulating oxygen (or whatever the heck they use for metabolism).

 

[Estelle]

Very interesting find Dan. I never really gave much thought to the
role of various metals behind blood color. I just took the Predators
blood for what it was. I'm not sure I follow how oxygen could pretty much
be ruled out when we, along with crabs and shrimp use oxygen.

 

[Estelle]

As to the heart rate, hmm this poses another tangent that must be explored. Preds physiology is completely alien to us so I think we could have some fun with this. Having a "double/rolling" heart beat could be indicative of, in my opinion, a binary heart. Which would be a very interesting adaption which could allow, at least in my opinion, the pred to suffer a great deal of damage and remain functional.

This seems plausible at least.

Not only that! I would also imagine that with a rate like this, their
blood, muscles would be "full" of O2 or what ever they use, at all times, basically making
them able to handle anything, at anytime that comes their way. I'd say they are in a constant
state of being ready for action.

 

[Lflank]

Very interesting find Dan. I never really gave much thought to the
role of various metals behind blood color. I just took the Predators
blood for what it was. I'm not sure I follow how oxygen could pretty much
be ruled out when we, along with crabs and shrimp use oxygen.

It's possible to not use oxygen--anaerobic bacteria use sulphur instead (oxygen kills them). But chemically, sulphur bonds contain less energy than oxygen, so oxygen is more efficient.

 

[damagecase]

Got a wild idea. What if the preds entire vascular system was composed of cardiac tissue? So, hypothetically, the blood would be pumped along by the very veins and arteries that carry it. Any thoughts?

 

[damagecase]

Lets assume that preds use O2 for a minute. Maybe when can get off easy on this. What if, the preds metabolize O2 but with an unknown metal as a transport system? We know from P2 that preds have access to previously unknown elements. It doesn't see farfetched that they may have some unknown coursing through their veins. Kind of a mix of what we know and what is completely alien.

With the vascular idea, I thought that was the case with the Klingons so I would like to offer something different than ST.