Pee Wee's Playhouse Scooter and Helmet

[killer3k]

Good find on the cowboy. That's the closest I've seen.
The only problem with this particular cowboy is that the hat looks different to me. Perhaps it's just the angle at which the photo was taken? Also I don't see the 'fringe' on the legs of the ones on the helmet but perhaps they've altered it somehow or have painted the fringe red to blend into the helmet?
Whether or not you've found the right cowboy, it's the best I've seen....and it just might be it.

The ducks appear to be half the length of the flame stickers.
Since the flame stickers are 244mm in length (almost 10 inches), the ducks must be somewhere between 5 - 6 inches in length.

 

[killer3k]

Actually, since they cut the last tongue of flame off of the sticker in order to fit it on the helmet, it might be closer to 9" in length, which might put the ducks at around 4 1/2 - 5 1/2 inches.

 

[killer3k]

I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but there are "hidden" items on the helmet that I believe are more dinosaurs. In the first set of pics, the red/orange one on the left looks like a bracheosaurus/brontasaurus. The purple one on the right looks like an Ankylosaurus or a bracheosaurus (but the photo quality is bad and we can't see the neck/head)

In this next set of pics, the red/orange object on the left looks a lot less like a dinosaur and more like a blob of epoxy or an extra foot on the duck, but the one on the right looks like a purple bracheosaurus/brontasaurus (only the "head and neck" are visible in this pic).

Considering the fact that one of these 'mystery' objects is painted purple, I would assume that it is in fact some sort of figurine such as a dinosaur or something.
Since every other aspect of this helmet is completely symmetrical in it's design (wherever there is an object on the left side of the helmet, they have put the same object or similar object in the same position on the right). So that red/orange blob MUST be a similar item to the purple item, but the quality of our pics is not very good and distorted by digital artifacts due to the DVD format's compression, etc.

Then again, it can't be the same brontasaurus/bracheosarus that's next to the cowboys because the head would be facing the wrong way. I'm a bit stumped now as to what these things are. Perhaps they're dinos of a different brand. Or maybe they are something entirely different, like reptile figurines. I'll have to look through some more of my DVDs and see if I can find better images of these things.

 

[killer3k]

Or maybe those "mystery objects" are just part of the ducks? Maybe the ducks were attached to something at the breast and that's just where they cut it off???

 

[killer3k]

Upon closer investigation, I do believe you've found the right cowboy.
The reason we're not seeing the fringe on the legs when we look at Pee Wee's cowboys is because the fringe is probably covered by the epoxy, hot glue, or whatever they used to stick these things onto the helmet - and it is painted red.
The reason the shape of the cowboy's hat looked 'different' to me was because I was looking at the cowboy on the right because it seemed that the image was a little more clear than the cowboy on the left. But I was not taking into account the fact that the cowboy on the right is probably turned around backwards so that it's facing into the helmet, which means we are seeing the BACK of the cowboy's hat. This would explain why it looked a little different to me.
So yeah, I now believe it is the right cowboy. Excellent find!

I'll bet the indians on the helmet were made by the same company. They look to be similar in style, and they are also missing their bases - which indicates to me that the bases are removable, just like the Beton / Tim Mee cowboy that you've found.

Lost Casket,
if you get a hold of all this stuff before I do, I hope you plan to make molds of the original parts just in case I (or others) need to buy them from you lol.

 

[killer3k]

Revisiting the theory that the "mystery objects" could be dinosaurs, I've made composite pics for comparison. In this first image, the mystery objects look like ankylosaurus (I think the Marx version appears to be the closest match).

But here is where it gets COMPLETELY confusing. In this next photo, the purple mystery object looks more like a Brontosaurus (Marx version) than an Ankylosaurus. OR it could be the head of an ankylosaurus and the "brontosaurus neck" effect is an optical illusion due to the bulldog head obstructing our view of the ankylosaurus' body. I tend to lean toward this explanation.
I didn't include the red mystery object in this pic because it doesn't seem to resemble anything. I'm not sure if it's because of the quality of the image or if it's because it is simply not an intentional object. As mentioned before, it could be just a blob of epoxy, hot glue, or part of the duck. Another thing to take into consideration is that these COULD be figurines, but perhaps they were painted sloppily or there's a lot of glue deforming the look of the objects.

To view the red mystery object from the original image (since I didn't include it in this one), just see the earlier post where it is included.

Am I just looking for something that doesn't exist? Are these mystery object actually figurines of some sort? Are they just blobs of glue? Are they part of the ducks (perhaps where the ducks were 'detatched' from a base or something)? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Just trying to keep up the momentum. We've come so far, and I personally don't want to stop until we've identified all of the original parts. Yes, I'm a bit OCD haha

 

[killer3k]

Here's a new idea for the ducks. Maybe it's not a wall duck. Maybe it's some other kind of decoration, like a christmas tree ornament, a hanging ornament, a hood ornament for a car....lets try to think of more ideas and google them. Because this duck might be a "whole" duck, cut in half instead of a half duck like most of the wall ducks are. Someone else mentioned that it might be made out of rubber or a soft plastic. Another possibility is that it was cut or sanded to fit the curve of the helmet.

If it's a traditional ceramic wall duck, then it would need to be one of the following:
A)Two different wall ducks that face opposite directions
B)A wall duck that isn't just "half" of a duck (not flat on the back) but even then, ceramic is trickier to cut in half than some other materials such as plastic. Plus, ceramic probably wouldn't be the choice material to glue to a helmet.
C)They would have had to do some sculpting or molding to get two halves. And it's unlikely that they would have gone out of their way to have a reversed version of the duck made (unless they molded one by hand).

The following example is NOT the duck we're looking for, but here is an ornament that I found. MALLARD DUCK - A David Grossman Creation - Hanging Decorative Flying Duck | eBay
Again, just trying to inspire some new ideas on what it could be.

 

[lostcasket]

I think you might be right about those dinosaurs. I originally though the where just legs from the duck. But I'd say your defiantly on to something.

I just got my little bag of assorted dinosaurs in the mail. Brontosaurus included. But nothing that matches either of those other Dinosaurs. As for the for making molds, I had already planned on it.

Brontosaurus is 2'' wide and 1 1/4'' tall.
I'm wondering if that cowboy is to big, or this dinosaur is to small.

 

[killer3k]

It says the cowboy that you found is -approximately- 3" tall. I think they mean 3", give or take. You know; roughly 3", not exactly.

approximately [əˈprɒksɪmɪtlɪ]
adv
close to; around; roughly or in the region of


If the cowboy is exactly 3", then the dino would need to be about 1 1/2 inches to be exactly half the height of the cowboy (which would be about right). If the dino is only 1" 1/4, then I'd be willing to bet that the cowboy is probably more like 2" 3/4 in hight. In any case, a 1/4 inch difference isn't much. So I'm willing to bet that both your dinos and the cowboy you've found are the right size.

 

[lostcasket]

Here is the cowboy if anyone is interested in snagging it.
Ive been debating if I want to get it. Since its the only lead we have on it.


Vintage Lot of 12 Tim Mee Beton Toys Cowboys and Indians Horse 3" Tall | eBay

 

[killer3k]

Here's another cowboy that's similar or the same.
2 Vintage Bergen Beton Toy Cowboys 60mm Western BT25 BT27 1950 Factory Painted | eBay

 

[lostcasket]

doesn't say how big they are.. Now I'm curious which one could be the right one.

 

[killer3k]

The one I posted is made by Bergen. It appears to have a slightly deformed rope, a molded-on base (instead of a separate base) and a different paint job. I'd be willing to bet that they used the one that you found since there doesn't appear to be a base attached to the one on the helmet. Sure, they could have just cut it off, but I doubt they'd go through the trouble.

 

[killer3k]

To help with determining an estimated size of the cowboy, I've made a side by side composite of the cowboy with one of the party clowns. I figure since you've already got the party clowns, you can measure the clown to figure out how tall the cowboy should be. Just keep in mind that this is not going to be accurate down to the centimeter due to slight differences in positioning on the helmet, so the camera is seeing them at a slightly different point of perspective. But it should give you a pretty close estimate.

It seems the cowboy might be slightly smaller than the clown, but they're pretty close to being the same size.

Please let me know the clowns dimensions. Thanks!

 

[killer3k]

Here are more cowboys that I found on ebay. I've included the links above each pic.

4 Vintage Beton Bergen Cowboy Indian Rectangle Base Figures | eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GROUP-OF-10...007483768?pt=Toy_Soldiers&hash=item4abd897b78

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beton-60mm-...t=Vintage_Antique_Toys_US&hash=item5647de6e58

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-3-be...t=Vintage_Antique_Toys_US&hash=item3f1deb229d

This next one isn't the "right one" but I thought it was interesting because it looks similar but more simplistic. Could there be more versions out there? Very interesting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-1950s...469060458?pt=Toy_Soldiers&hash=item5895b9236a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/14-RARE-BER...797589746?pt=Toy_Soldiers&hash=item43b4e314f2

Notice the ruler in that last pic (far right). The cowboys are about 2 3/4 inch.
I'm pretty sure we've got the right cowboy.

We know now that there are different versions of this same cowboy. Some are only different because of their factory paint. Other differences are that some are made with a detachable base and others are made with a permanently attached base. At some point, they changed from detachable bases to permanently attached bases, but the body of the mold appears to be the same.
My guess is that we want the version with the detachable base.

I've really done some heavy comparisons between these cowboys and the ones on the helmet. I'm pretty sure we've got the right cowboy - or at the very least, the right manufacturer. But personally, I'm 99.9% convinced that this is the right cowboy (the one with the detachable base).
I wouldn't be surprised if they are also the manufacturer of the indians on Pee Wee's helmet. The style looks to be the closest out of all the other types of plastic Indians I've seen, and it would make sense if they bought a pack of plastic cowboys and indians and just used what was in the pack. I doubt they would have been able to buy individual cowboys, but I suppose somebody could have had some sitting around the house or something. But I really think the cowboys must have come in a pack with the indians.

 

[killer3k]

Might this be one of our Indians?
Ebay link:
Antique Vintage Beton Indian Toy Plastic Figure Western | eBay

He's on a detachable base, so I'd grab him up quick if you think it's the right Indian.

There are two more Indians just like that one in one of the other pics I posted earlier but they don't have detachable bases. Here's the link again:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GROUP-OF-10-...item4abd897b78

...here's another one that doesn't have a detachable base:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BETON-BERGE...403565103?pt=Toy_Soldiers&hash=item35a51f662f

and another:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bergen-1950...030382267?pt=Toy_Soldiers&hash=item3cc69f8abb

If I'm right about this Indian, then the other Indian on the helmet will also have been made by the same company.
Which will confirm my suspicion that all of the plastic cowboys and indians they used on the helmet were from the same pack - all by the same manufacturer.

 

[killer3k]

Here is a seemingly complete list of the cowboys and indians made by Bergen.

Bergen figures with separate bases:

Bergen solid cast based figures:

The only problem is that I don't think I see our 2nd indian in ANY of these. So perhaps he is made by a different manufacturer. Or maybe they cut the left arm off of BT22 and glued it on so that it's sticking up in the air and then put a bow in his other hand??? But why go through so much trouble?
It must be made by a different manufacturer. Either that or it's just made by the same manufacturer but it's not shown the the "complete" list above.
I'm starting to think it's a different manufacturer.

Here's a possible lead:
Six of these figures were later copied by Ajax and cast in both hard and soft plastic:

Perhaps Ajax made other figures along with these "copies" that are not shown here due to the fact that this is a "Bergen" list? But this would make our search more difficult as the Ajax cowboy and indian sets are apparently unmarked. This means that ebay sellers won't know who the manufacturer is unless they've done their research, which also means that they may not be labeled as "Ajax" on ebay. As a result, we may not be able to use Ajax as a search term.
Then again, our missing indian might be made by a totally different company. I think it's unlikely that the person/people who made Pee Wee's helmet would chop up an indian to customize it. It just seems like too much unnecessary effort.

Here's the closest thing I've found to our missing indian but I'm not sure if this one was made back then. I'm also not sure what size this one is, plus there is no Bow in his hand (2nd to last indian with hands in the air). Made by Toy Soldiers Of San Diego.

But I suppose if this one is the right size you could always make a bow from scratch.
Hell, it might not even be a bow in his hand. It's so hard to tell from the grainy screen caps that we have. But it looks like a bow to me.

 

[killer3k]

Here are more that resemble our missing indian:

The tan colored one with the hatchet, standing up next to the one with the head dress (very bottom of the pic)
Large Lot Mixed Indians Marx MPC Lido Others | eBay

The red one with the knife all the way over on the right hand side of the pic below
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/toysoldierhq/OtherUSA1.html

 

[killer3k]

Remember our red dinosaur "blob"? (left)

Well this purple Ankylosaurus made by Dimensions For Children looks a lot like it:

 

[killer3k]

They have a bunch of our Cowboys and Indians on this site:
Bergen Toy & Novelty Co. ~ ID and Sales List
If you search around their website you'll find lots of interesting information. They've got a list of variations with pictures, a list of pirated Betons, etc. The most informative site I've seen on this product.

This photo is of the back of what I believe to be our first 'identified' indian (left):

I'm still trying to figure out what the other indian is.
Just for quick reference, here's that pic again:

Note that our 'mystery' indian on the right seems to be holding a bow in his hand.

I can't figure out why everything else on this helmet has an exact 'twin', but then they used two different indians (unless of course they only got one of that particular indian in the pack that they bought). If you look at the head and left arm, our 'missing' indian looks similar to our "identified" indian. But his other arm is in the air instead of on his hip and his legs are both straight instead of having one bent.
I'm pretty sure it's possible to put plastic figures in boiling water to soften the plastic so that you can bend it into a different pose (but this doesn't work with harder plastics). Then you could make a bow to put in his hand or cut the bow off of another indian and give it to him.
I don't know if they did something like this, but I suppose it's possible. It would be a big waste of time and energy for them but they could have done it. I just don't know why they would, other than to try to disguise the indian due to copyright issues. But if this were the case, then why would they leave the other indian in it's original factory pose? This has got me stumped. I've looked through countless indians by different manufacturers and I still haven't found what I believe to be an exact match.