New Doctor Who Series Discussion *Spoilers*

[JBReplicas]

Rory wanted to give Amy his bracelet as a self sacrificing act, but then realised that the Doctor had already given her his, as he didn't really need it.

I remember an episode from the 80's 'Revelation Of The Daleks' I think, where we see a human head implanted inside a see thru Dalek casing, that would've looked better than just a Dalek chained up I think?

 

[familyman]

Ah yes, the Freema Agyeman principle. She played cousins. One's dead the other one walked the world in a splinter timeline.

As for there being so many Daleks: TIME TRAVEL!!! You can plant a seed, hop in the Tardis and see it as a full tree in no time at all.

Karen Gillan was also in a doctor who episode before she became Amy, she was in the fires of pompeii episode. Not a well seen character but still another actress in a doctor who episode who later became a supporting cast member.

 

[The_Mike]

I think it would have worked a lot better if the Oswin dalek had actually been a true Dalek that thought it was human. That would have justified the insane dalek plot, and how dangerous they could be to 'regular' ones.

Yes and no. If you think about it Oswin made those daily audio journals and so can you imagine since her creation, which was to try and harness her genius, she instead screwed up their Asylum and continuously talked herself and acted as if she were hiding from them to the other Daleks? I'd say as far as the Daleks are considered that'd be sinisterly insane and reason to shove her into a "padded" room.

Anyone think that Oswin telling him to remember her was a key to her return? I know that the time rift is closed so theoretically that's out but she seemed to repeat it a lot OR if her talking in that audiojournal to her mother could be a key? Maybe Clara is Oswin's mother?

Her return is really bugging me mainly because I'm trying to see the patterning that is usually there in the last episode back to the first but I'm loving this season so far already.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

why the Cybusmen lost their 'C'

Because the ones from our dimension never had it. Only the ones from the alternate dimension and Cybus Industries.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

The simple answer is that Moffat doesn't give a crap about continuity (particularly to RTD plots) or plot holes as long as we get a big 'wow' factor.

There's always that! :lol

I was also let down tho', by creating a cool idea like a planet of insane Daleks, then have them do nothing different from the standard ones.

I think it would have worked a lot better if the Oswin dalek had actually been a true Dalek that thought it was human. That would have justified the insane dalek plot, and how dangerous they could be to 'regular' ones.

Agreed, I was looking forward to some bat-s**t crazy Daleks! And what's more crazy in a Dalek than thinking you're human?

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Yes and no. If you think about it Oswin made those daily audio journals and so can you imagine since her creation, which was to try and harness her genius, she instead screwed up their Asylum and continuously talked herself and acted as if she were hiding from them to the other Daleks? I'd say as far as the Daleks are considered that'd be sinisterly insane and reason to shove her into a "padded" room.

Totally. I hope they return to that whole concept! Looking forward to what they end up doing with her. Hopefully it isn't a cop out "it's her cousin" kind of thing.

 

[Straker]

Because the ones from our dimension never had it. Only the ones from the alternate dimension and Cybus Industries.

I think it's more than just "how did the C on their chest disappear" and more "which the hell Cyberman are they and whichever one they are how did they get from point A to point B" that is the real problem XD Well for ME anyway XD

 

[Michael Bergeron]

I think it's more than just "how did the C on their chest disappear" and more "which the hell Cyberman are they and whichever one they are how did they get from point A to point B" that is the real problem XD Well for ME anyway XD

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems simple to me:

Cybermen without the "C" are the same ones we've always known. They never went away we just didn't see them for quite a while.

Cybermen with the "C" are the alternate universe ones. Appearances few and far between where they've been able to cross and some stragglers from the invasion but a dying breed. Kind of like the Daleks SHOULD have been...

 

[Straker]

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems simple to me:

Cybermen without the "C" are the same ones we've always known. They never went away we just didn't see them for quite a while.

Cybermen with the "C" are the alternate universe ones. Appearances few and far between where they've been able to cross and some stragglers from the invasion but a dying breed. Kind of like the Daleks SHOULD have been...

Yes it's wonderfully simple but not. I mean again, we have logical progressions for most things in Doctor Who, even in the classic series but we have definite reasons about what Makes a Cybusman different than a Mondasian Cyberman. Why would the Mondasians make themselves look like a Cyberman type they never met that were developed via different means in a different dimension on a different planet for different reasons. Technically speaking they never should have met the other Cybermen. Hell, one step past that is the Cybermen that got out of the Void in The Next Doctor had possession of recognizable tech of the Mondasian Cybermen...how? See, none of this stuff even gets addressed and when it becomes a contradiction to me it says the writers aren't doing their jobs. Now I know the appearance of the classic Cybermen changed a lot over the years but that could be written off as just being different types, now you have added another universe to the equation and are just treating one type of Cyberman as just being like ANY type of Cyberman and not explaining anything. It just bugs me that "it just is" when you could explore the possabilities in such great episodes. They still could too. It is a time travelling show and it's not like the Cybermen episodes of the classic series were ever told in a linear fashion to the Cybermen's perspective. Technically the last classic series appearance according to Cyberman history was Revenge of the Cybermen. it's true. If you go by when the Doctor says the Cybermen are from Revenge is their last story. XD

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Why would the Mondasians make themselves look like a Cyberman type they never met that were developed via different means in a different dimension on a different planet for different reasons. Technically speaking they never should have met the other Cybermen.

... Because. :lol

You get away with a lot when dealing with alternate universes. As a big fan of Sliders I'm willing to accept that the Mondas Cybermen progressed to the current look while in another universe Cybus created Cybermen of that look from the get go.

 

[Birdie]

I never thought the differences in the various incarnations of Cybermen in classic Who as different types so much as upgrades.

If you accept a certain synchronicity between alternate universes, then it could follow that the Cybus version were synchronous of the current (though at this point unseen) Mondas version*



*This is the first time I have ever tried to explain away Moffat 'Who cares, it's my show now' arrogance. Damn that fever!

Edit: Too slow. Fevered minds think alike!

 

[Straker]

I never thought the differences in the various incarnations of Cybermen in classic Who as different types so much as upgrades.

If you accept a certain synchronicity between alternate universes, then it could follow that the Cybus version were synchronous of the current (though at this point unseen) Mondas version*



*This is the first time I have ever tried to explain away Moffat 'Who cares, it's my show now' arrogance. Damn that fever!

Edit: Too slow. Fevered minds think alike!

I never thought of the different types as upgrades only because of the non linear stories. The Cybermen from the 1st Doctor's era technically take place chronologically in 1986. and Attack of the Cybermen was set in 1985 and were still Earthshock styled, but in Revenge of the Cybermen which was set farther in the future in 2875 they are a completely different style. I just consider them to be different types like the 10th Planet Cybermen were scout types for example. For now though my head cannon says that some other Cybusmen got out of the void and joined the Mondasian Cybermen and their technologies melded. XD

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Edit: Too slow. Fevered minds think alike!

I do feel a little warm... :lol

For now though my head cannon says that some other Cybusmen got out of the void and joined the Mondasian Cybermen and their technologies melded. XD

In the end it's whatever helps you sleep at night! :thumbsup Lord knows it's difficult rationalizing the canon of a series 50 years old.

 

[The_Mike]

I wonder if we'll see something similar to River Song but with a twist. I wonder if the destruction of the Asylum would be a fixed point in time, since that's the moment that the Daleks forget The Doctor. If so, he couldn't change it and we might get something very tragic where she travels until she gets on The Alaska and meets her fate. It could be something more like The Doctor takes her to "see the stars" because she requested it and he knows that he won't be able to change it once she boards that ship.

 

[Kerr Avon]

Wow.

What the hell happened there?

That was actually a GOOD episode. I wasn't expecting that from Moffat and Smith.

I saw the plot line of the girl being a Dalek a mile away though, and I had a funny thought to the question of where she was getting the milk after a shot of her in that slinky red dress. Yowsers, she's got a body that rivals Amy. I could stand to lose Amy if we get that brunette in trade.

I'm less convinced though on this story line of the Daleks being made to forget about the Doctor. Did they forget about Gallifreyans too? Does that mean the Time War is truly at an end now? If the Daleks don't recall the Doctor and Gallifrey, then there's no hostilities. There's no Gallifrey to go after Daleks, and now it's just the Doctor occasionally messing with them.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Yowsers, she's got a body that rivals Amy. I could stand to lose Amy if we get that brunette in trade.

We do.

And not a moment too soon. I'm getting tired of the whole Amy & Rory "I love you", "No I love you more" drivel.

I'm less convinced though on this story line of the Daleks being made to forget about the Doctor. Did they forget about Gallifreyans too? Does that mean the Time War is truly at an end now? If the Daleks don't recall the Doctor and Gallifrey, then there's no hostilities. There's no Gallifrey to go after Daleks, and now it's just the Doctor occasionally messing with them.

I took it as only the Doctor, there's no mention of Time Lords being erased, just the "Predator". I think it's a good thing, now they won't be hunting him and he can just bump into them from time to time to thwart their plans.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

I wonder if we'll see something similar to River Song but with a twist. I wonder if the destruction of the Asylum would be a fixed point in time, since that's the moment that the Daleks forget The Doctor. If so, he couldn't change it and we might get something very tragic where she travels until she gets on The Alaska and meets her fate. It could be something more like The Doctor takes her to "see the stars" because she requested it and he knows that he won't be able to change it once she boards that ship.

I thought the same thing but the problem is that she said that was her first trip and she doesn't know the Doctor. If he takes her previously in her timeline he masses up that encounter. Still though, if they could pull it off and still have it make sense (my faith isn't high) then it would be an interesting story to follow knowing that her end is that terrible.

 

[TheNickFox]

I thought the same thing but the problem is that she said that was her first trip and she doesn't know the Doctor. If he takes her previously in her timeline he masses up that encounter. Still though, if they could pull it off and still have it make sense (my faith isn't high) then it would be an interesting story to follow knowing that her end is that terrible.

She also forgot that she wasn't really human...or rather blocked it out. So, if what we saw was the future her - post Doctor - then perhaps whatever happened prior to her boarding the Alaska was just so terrible that she blocked it out, including the parts with the Doctor.

And I would personally love for this to turn into one giant circular time loop thing, where the Doctor does something to the Daleks now that they've forgotten him, that leads to the events of the first ever encounter we know of from the show's history. Where, in fighting the Daleks, he has always been setting himself up for fighting them even more, forever, in a loop and there's nothing he can do to stop it.

-Nick

 

[Cut Snake]

My thoughts on it.

First episode in a long while that I've enjoyed from the get go. Usually it takes me a few viewings to enjoy it then eventually love it. I guess typically by then I gloss over the stuff I didn't enjoy. Not a problem this time. Maybe I'm getting soft. lol

My take on the Rory vs Amy having the bracelet. I felt he would last longer simply because Amy had already begun her change and Rory hadn't. Of course that would have removed the conversation that ended up with them confronting the issue between them. I did not have any issue with the reasoning behind it, I have seen lesser things break up relationships, not to mention having to cope with life after Tardis travel.

No idea on how they will sort out having the same actress being the new companion as we saw in this ep. I would be annoyed if it does get ignored, simply because she was much more memorable than other actresses who have rejoined the show later on. My impression of the character she played in this ep. was how how much she reminded me of Jenny. I wonder if that means anything.

 

[JBReplicas]

I still dont buy the Cyberman thing as they are physically identical bar the C, I appreciate the C was removed, possibly to imply that they are our universe cybermen but they should be different, at least in physical appearance. The proper Cybermen are hugely advanced in terms of technology, so why would they appear almost exactly the same as their primitive 'brain in a suit' namesakes?