Movie Franchises - the inevitable fail.

[Too Much Garlic]

We all love that first one that makes the whole thing happen. That logical first step into a magnificent world full of wonders and awesomeness. That magical journey were you just crave more and more when it is over and you go back and watch it again and again to relive those wonderful moments where a brand new world and premise was presented you and all the world of possibilities were left wide open for something cool.

You want to go back into the journey and experience the possibilities and the next steps in their journeys because you care about the characters and want to know how they deal, how they survive, how they overcome and how they manage the next big thing that is thrown their way.

Sometimes the lightning strikes twice and you get a continuation that you hadn't expected and exceeded your expectations and pushed the story to new heights and in new directions that were as thrilling to watch as the first one. But, for the most part, the sequels rarely hold up to the first and the franchise often suffers from the lack of balls to actually take the story to where it could really go and prosper and instead is just a basic recap of the same story we already saw.

There are several franchises that lack the courage to really think big, to really go and explore the possibilities of the story and lead us to places that makes us go WOW. Instead they stick to the tried and tested and the simple and basically... what the suits think we want based on what we liked about the previous one and other similar movies. More of the same porridge, when we could have gourmet dinner... and it wouldn't even take that much more effort... just a set of balls to actually attempt the impossible... feel the passion for the project... and bring something awesome to the screen. The ground people are already working their butts off to make this great, but they have no control over the story - they just do their job and is often let down by the suits to save money on getting the best writers and directors for the job.

We have seen it all before. Great movies with sequels... where the sequels simply lack the courage to add in that extra step. Like the Terminator series. Ever since the first one... every subsequent movie is basically a recap of that first one - killer robot and John Connor. Sure... that's the heart of the story, but come on... there's no progress... there's no expansion... just ever more weirder and crappier robots and stupid scenarios. Hell... Skynet has the power to send robots that look human back in time... even got shape-shifters... yet... the movie makers don't explore that very logical direction the story could take and sticks with the *robot is after John Connor* cliche story.

The same issue occurred in Transformers 2, when it was revealed that the transformers were now able to imitate real living people.

Hell... USE THAT why don't you... but instead it's toned down, simplified, the potential squandered on the main hero, when in fact... it could ADD to the whole paranoia, the thriller aspect, the *who do you trust* factor that usually is at the heart of these stories. They could imitate ANYBODY, ANYWHERE. How about using that age-old paranoid doubt and fear whether you can actually TRUST your government, trust the people in charge...

What could add more fear and paranoia if it turned out that terminators were infiltrating the military, the government, every organ charged with protecting and managing us all. I'm sure people would rather keep these as no-brainer explosion popcorn summer blockbuster movies where you don't have to think much about it afterward. But, what the sequels lacked, the original had in spades - the thriller element. The fear that anybody could be your killer and there were no one you could really trust. With the introduction of the T-1000... that was amplified and brought forward the possibility of these things being sent back in the hundreds, maybe thousands to dominate us and shape things to come. But no... we got the same old recap of the first movie, with some additional slap-stick and pointless action added as sugar coating to cover the ever decreasing lack of story and point.

With Superman... you have essentially a God-like creature serving as a protector of man. You have the awareness of extra terrestrial life. The suits are afraid to take him to where he could go, to show the awesomeness that is Superman, but also, where he really fails to be able to use all his powers - where despite all his powers he is powerless. Kryptonite makes him weak, but really doesn't render him emotionally and physically powerless all-together, it just removes his strength. Sure, we have to have a Lois Lane... but it's also getting really boring that he has to save her all the time. Every time he saves her, someone else gets hurt or dies... why not show that? The dilemma, the pain he feels about that, the knowledge that he is human and not all powerful. That he chooses one over another for selfish reasons.

We've seen enough origin stories to puke the Pacific Ocean and then some. Gives us something new. Something fresh. Something we don't expect. Show us heroes, when they've been in the game for a while, their thoughts, their aspirations, whether they still believe the reason they became what they became... does it still burn in their chest and make them go on? Show us their doubts, their reason to go on. Their drive... what makes Batman go on, year after year after year, basically turning into the monster he's created, ending up being nothing more than Batman and Bruce Wayne is just a forgotten ghost from his past. Someone like Batman, who is driven by his sense of justice can easily step down the dark path that leads to him becoming more like the criminals, than the good guys. Seeing those who captures get out on bail, only do a few years and is out on the street again, continuing what they did... the failure of his sense of justice that would hit him like bricks... to have to go after the same people, again and again and again, because society and the justice system lets them out, because they are too soft and blindly believes in the concept of rehabilitation. Witnessing their crimes, murders, torment of innocents. Batman, an old man, in his cave... frustrated, angry, losing his faith in the system and taking that first step that will bring justice to the victims, yet... will be brutal and barbaric and crossing the line.

I am fully aware however that many probably don't want to see that. To see these franchises go to places that puts everything close to the edge, to take us where we'll be challenged and surprised and angry. They ignore blatantly obvious conclusions just to bring us the same tired old cliched story, over and over and over again.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this and other observations you've made. You don't need to agree with me on what I've listed in this first post, but I think we all agree that with just a little more effort on the writing and directing (possibly editing) stage... then things could be improved and all the hard work of the people who help make these movies is better used and not wasted.

 

[cboath]

Hard to disagree.

To me, the problem is the utter lack of imagination of the 'suits'. The mentality can be seen in all the remakes. The rationale seems to be, it made money before so it made money again. For sequels, it seems to be that the first one made money, so if we make the second one the same, just bigger it should make money too.

No one seems to come to the plate with an over-arching story that spans 2, 3, or more movies. The have 'a story' and if it works well enough in theatres they get a shot at a second. When the second shot comes along it seems overly influenced by the suits who want the same thing just 'bigger and better' so it makes money too. Seems like expanding something like Superman beyond Lois and Lex is seen as 'too risky' becuase no one else other than supreme die hards knows of any of the other villians in the comics. I'm not a comics person, and I don't know too many villians. But I know more than Lex. I know a lot of batman villians only from the old Adam West series and the animated series. In area's like that they seem very afraid to go in directions the public doesn't already know for fear they won't bother.

I don't think you have to go as far as you describe. A Superman movie with the villian being someone other than Lex would be a start. Well, as long as it isn't Richard Pryor .
Start it off with Doomsday and the Death of Superman. That would be a very different take. I think they're on close to your line of thinking with the current batman. Part 3 is going to likely be him as an enemy of the city til the end of the movie. Something we really haven't seen.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Yes, the Nolan movies is definitely doing things in a different way. A much better way in my opinion. It dares to take a somewhat new approach to the story and trying to do new stuff for the sequels. Will be interesting to see what the third one will be like... but even before that's done... the suits are already talking about going back to the beginning... to what is safe... to what has been done before.

I wanted to say more about the Terminator series. In the fourth one there arose the question... well... if Marcus is from an even further future... where did HE come from, who sent him and why. What's the future like after the humans win? Will they start a new society, how will it be, what will happen to all the tech that was developed during the war - weapons and time machines. Heck... the future could be messing with things beyond our imagination... they already seem to be messing with T4... so... I guess that means the time machine tech exists and is used. Who uses it, who governs them? Who makes sure they don't exploit it!? What happens to all the machines? Do they all get destroyed, demoted to mindless slaves again... or do wars continue... or... do machine and man actually find a way to co-exist?

Also wanted to approach the ALIEN and Predator franchises. It's about time someone actually brought something new to that. Sure, Ridley Scott may be working on something cool... but it's a prequel series (Wasn't it two movies) that precedes the first Alien. STUPID approach. Move forward, not backwards. Show us something new. Something like the Alien species and the Predator species can't be contained and kept hidden and secret to people forever... it will become known. The question then is: what happens when it does? Will there be an outcry against those who knew and kept it secret and will there be a mobilization towards waging war against the species or simply an attempt to exterminate them to preserve our own species? A pre-emptive strike that may go horribly wrong? The Predator series needs to be taken out into space - not another jungle or Earth city... take it to new heights. Maybe a truce happens and they stop coming here to hunt... but unscrupulous people want their tech and stages conflicts where it seems the Predator species is the aggressor to force human government to declare war, so they can go in and steal tech.

There are so many options.

With the alien species... having them wanted for bio-warfare is getting old really quick. And if they really have a strange form of evolution where they actually develop more than simply being a weird killing machine... that would be something to explore as well... but oh God... stop with the mixing of the species inter-related sex crap and stupid looking off-spring... nasty and tame. EEK.

I don't know. There's just SO many possibilities... yet... all people ever do... is doing the same god-damned thing over and over and over again. Regurgitating the obvious.

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

Main problem: 1st movie huge success, then 2nd movie quickly knit together with rushed release. So it´s IMO less about the will for quality, but more about the will to make more money quick.

 

[TK1961]

There are films that I would like to see sequels of but don't have to be made. You want to see more but they stand alone. Maybe thats enough.

District 9
Iron Giant
Cloverfield
The incredibles
Avatar

 

[Wes R]

I'd love to see some darker super hero movies like you mentioned where they've become jaded and doubt themselves or become so lost in their work that they kinda go captain ahab and become obsessed. I would love to see a move with the Justice Lords, the darker and more violent version of the Justice league where they realize mankind needs to be dominated to be kept safe. A good Batman would be Dark Knight Returns as it shows how he stopped being Bruce and became obsessed with taking things to the next level.

 

[Rotwang]

Hollywood is all about formulas. The "creative" people in Hollywood are under pressure to be original as long as they follow certain formulas, patterns, clichés, memes etc.

How many adaptations of an original story have been ruined by a formulaic rewrite of the original story ?

The scientist will either be a young brilliant maverick scorned by mainstream [evil dogmatic] scientists or a drop-dead gorgeous 22-year old woman who is top of her field and will do stunts that would make Lara Crofts jaw seem like a quadruplegic.

The robot or android will always be clueless to most aspects of human behaviour, no matter how amazingly intelligent it is, yet will ALWAYS yearn to be human.

Time travelers/aliens/dimensional travelers will always blatantly gaffe and make stupid mistakes for a substantial stretch of the film. They will have no discerning intelligence, show no ability to fudge or adapt or even keep their mouth shut and always ask for a specific item as if plasma weapons have been available since the dawn of time etc ...

The list goes on ...

Hollywood is just wash, rinse, repeat with little actual variation.

 

[Commander Max]

Hollywood is all about formulas. The "creative" people in Hollywood are under pressure to be original as long as they follow certain formulas, patterns, clichés, memes etc.

Combine that with a business and marketing formula, and you have a pure commercial machine, incapable of ever taking risks. But 'selling' you the idea they are original by offering the same thing over and over again.

Another thing to keep in mind, Hollywood has limited itself severely. With the idea that they don't to offend anybody. I heard an interview somewhere, where they wanted the villains to be Nazi Vampires. Some no-nothing exec nixed the idea because they thought it would offend Germans, Jews(or whoever). I think the film had some Germans involved(financiers or theater owners, I don't remember which). When the film was being screened the Germans involved stated, they really wanted to see the Nazi Vampires. There is tons of examples of this sort of thinking. It's going to kill anything that would truly be original.

I'm getting real tired of the stereotypes that all business is bad, and so is the military. But the natives are wonderfull and so is nature. But nature is on the edge(or over the edge), or the apocalyptic Mad Max world where for some reason the machines are still running(everything and everyone is filthy but for some reason they can still rebuild a V8, that runs perfectly(motor-heads will get this one)).

The other thing I'm tired of is the idea things have to be dark. I've been seeing dark movies for over 30 years. I'm tired of the whole idea of dark and negative. I'll use the idea of the Alien, truly a great concept, I stopped reading the comics, because they really brought me down, with the sense of hopelessness those stories left me with.

 

[motman241]

Hollywood just doesn't want to take a risk, financially or otherwise. If they can latch on to something already great, they are halfway there. They are also banking on schmucks who will go see their favorite star in anything. You're so geeked you'd go watch a movie about Wolverine takeing a dump for an hour and a half? It's quickly coming to that. Got a mediocre script/remake? Cram it with A-list stars or top-40 bands.


Hollywood needs to support the smaller guys who will take the risks. Support the original ideas. Don't want to take a financial risk? Let them have $2 million. That's quite enough to do things, yet not enough to break any Hollywood bank. Plus, it makes the director be creative and not just throw money at a problem. Don't hire A-list actors. There's plenty of people who can act just fine, and for a lot less money.

 

[Solo4114]

Hollywood just doesn't want to take a risk, financially or otherwise. If they can latch on to something already great, they are halfway there. They are also banking on schmucks who will go see their favorite star in anything. You're so geeked you'd go watch a movie about Wolverine takeing a dump for an hour and a half? It's quickly coming to that. Got a mediocre script/remake? Cram it with A-list stars or top-40 bands.

It's gone beyond that, actually. They don't even bother with A-list stars anymore or top-40 bands. Now? They just find a name. A brand name. A patina to smear across their product. Call it "gilding the turd" if you will, but whatever you call it, it works.

There are TONS of crappy products out there that people LOVE merely because it has the brand name of their favorite franchise attached to it, where, if you stripped out the branding, people would just say "What the hell is this crappy knockoff of [product]? Pass, thanks." But, slap the brand name on, and they're all ears/eyes/wallets.

It's genius, actually. If you have a strong enough brand, you can sell people crap and they'll keep coming back for more, at least a few more times. Play with the numbers enough, and they'll make money, too.


Don't believe me? Let's look at your Wolverine example. First X-men film? Pretty good, actually. Second one? Not bad. Some might even say better than the first. Third one? Ahh, here the cracks start to show. Frankly, I thought the film was a friggin' trainwreck...but it was successful enough to lead to the Wolverine: Origins greenlight. And that movie was a godawful mess as well....and now here we are with X-Men First Class popping up, brought to you by THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE who brought you the last two s**t burgers.

And you know what?

People will still go see it. People HERE will still pay to see it and "give it a chance." Why? Branding. That's why. They WANT the movie to be good because they have positive associations with the brand. They'll FORGIVE the movie its obvious flaws because they have positive associations with the brand. And the suits know that even if THIS one sucks, they can just "reboot" the franchise and people will "give it a chance" again because they so WANT to like this stuff and because the strength of the brand is literally that strong -- you can make crapfest after crapfest and people will keep coming back.




The thing that I find most interesting about this is that it is not going to change. In the past, the system was malleable enough that it strikes me that studios would eventually grow tired of a particular formulation and move on to the next formula. You'd have "eras" of movies, but at least within certain genres, this is becoming less and less the case. I see this as a result of far more centralization and top-down bureaucratic control of the studios (to wit: the money). Ironically, I see this attempt to control a "design by committee" as both the cause and the result of the decline in theater attendance, and as attendance drops, the studios resort to "What worked last time" which leads to the industry simply ossifying. So, fewer and fewer people means more and more of the same types of movies.


Now, in fairness, it isn't ALL like this. There are plenty of cool indie films being made, and even the major studios (I think, anyway) have their "indie" labels. But for big-budget stuff, the budget has shrunk, and that means you stick to the f-ing plan and recycle what came before because it's the only safe bet to get the cretins to continue showing up.

 

[Commander Max]

Is the term "indie" new, and what does it mean? Each time I've seen it I think India.

I've had similar conversations about bad Hollywood product 20 years ago. That was in relation to the Star Trek franchise and how bad it was getting. As long as the show was labeled "Star Trek" the fans would buy it. Even though the ST people used the Star Wars formula, the two fan bases couldn't be more opposed. But the label means everything content means nothing.
I can't tell you how many times I thought they could do this stuff so much better. The fan will accept whatever they can get, in this case the kid in the candy store just didn't get sick, he sugared himself to death.

I think Hollywood is in serious trouble, and they are just going to ignore the problem. Blame other issues other than their formula.
The best example of this trouble is the print media, they are nearly extinct in about a decade, in a generation things like newspapers will be a novelty.
I think the same thing is going to hit Hollywood. Once people who have worked in the studio system(failed, fed up, etc.) realize they no longer need the studio system to make what they want. Or individuals who just want to have fun with making films, will hit the mark, and do it for pennies(in comparison). Hollywood will suddenly find itself a face in the crowd, competing with some high school kids with nothing else better to do. Not unlike bloggers, unknowns competing with established professionals.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Solo, I do enjoy your rants on this topic, man - and the fact that you never tire of slapping those suits' faces.

'...and now here we are with X-Men First Class popping up, brought to you by THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE who brought you the last two s**t burgers.'

Hee hee hee!

 

[Solo4114]

Yeah, I mean, I don't claim any great insight into the process. It's not like I work in Hollywood. I'm just...I dunno. I've pretty much opted out at this point, but it pisses me off to see an industry with such potential continue to be mired in its own mediocrity-for-the-sake-of-lower-risk.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

So, the decline in people going to watch movies in the theatre, they don't get that it's because of bad movies, crappy stories, over the top acting, unconnecting and emotionally void stories and noise... filled with an overabundance of effects that tries more to get people to notice them rather than being "invisible" and working for the story...

I don't like pointless stories. They add pointlessness to my life. I don't like noise. Most movies today are all about noise. A freaking werewolf sounding like an earthquake when it's growling, lots of bass, annoying, overpopulated noise with soundtracks that are most of the time derivative of other movies and basically just filler.

NOISE. Product placement. Unrealistic characters, because either the writer has no clue about building characters or the director doesn't know how to bring it out of the actors and actresses working on the movie. All dropped on the floor with MTV cutting and fancy camerawork that screams "look at me" rather than actually work for the story. Effects that stand out, look fake, swirls and screams "ain't I pretty, I cost so much money, just look at me"... to a nearly non-existing, worthwhile score, because the movie was in post production all the way up to the release date, so the composer didn't really get a chance to get a feel for the movie or what happened when, when he had to write it.

Hollywood has been dead for a long time. Filled with crack-heads, running around thinking they are important. And with good, earnest, hard working people who bust their ass off to make the world of the movie look good. Time for these people to take over the control of Hollywood. They have the talent. They have the drive. They just need new leadership, as the leadership drains them of talent for their uninspired, gutless projects.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

There is nothing interesting about the super guy who runs into battle, unafraid, without fear of getting hurt or the consequences of the actions. You are not watching a real person and only a sociopath acts like that.

Fear, reluctance, doing things in spite of nearly crapping your pants, thinking you'll die. There's nothing heroic about someone who is strong and tough and then something happens and then he's just... strong and tough. I think Joss Whedon said it better.

You have to have the wimp go out and do the heroic thing and be ****-scared about it, but still do it. But... not in any unrealistic way. Yeah, suddenly he just took off his glasses and he stopped being a skinny, spineless wimp and grew into freaking Brad Pitt in physique and awesomeness and busted ass left and right... oh wait... he was good looking before, but in that more plain looking way, because... he's wearing glasses, you see... so... he's this geeky guy, who's not this super pumped hottie every girl swooned over. Yeah right.

People are afraid of the even the most silly things... fear adds character, adds drama... but if you add a fear... don't gloss it over and suddenly have the character climb up on skyscrapers to move antennas without freezing up, pissing their pants with fear, or stand near a freaking rail near a drop without showing that reluctance to be standing so close to tripping and falling down that drop and maiming yourself. If you are gonna add fear of heights... there is nothing more unfulfilling than revealing that about a character and then just have them act totally against it just mere seconds AFTER they freaking revealed they were scared of heights, by standing next to a rail with a pretty big drop on the other side, acting like they are standing on the ground. That kind of *fear of heights* is a freaking illogical response, based on logical sense of self-preservation.

I hate it when something is set up, but is only added as a kitsch little character trait to attempt to add depth to an otherwise one-dimensional character... and then... NOT ****ING getting the emotional response, body language, everything to match. No... it's just a mindless addition that is unconnected and is just there to set up something awesome in later scenes where the character will do something opposite of the fear... and thus... overcome the fear and be saved. YAY.

Like the person being frustrated or angry... what is the quickest, simplest way to show it... just have the character wipe stuff off a table or bash their hand against the wall... totally cliche and pointless and you are just sure it will happen every single time you see something going against that particular character. It's a rehearsed motion with a calculated effect to get a specific response. It's fake... and you completely lose interest in the character because you don't feel the emotion behind the action.

 

[Solo4114]

So, the decline in people going to watch movies in the theatre, they don't get that it's because of bad movies, crappy stories, over the top acting, unconnecting and emotionally void stories and noise... filled with an overabundance of effects that tries more to get people to notice them rather than being "invisible" and working for the story...

I don't like pointless stories. They add pointlessness to my life. I don't like noise. Most movies today are all about noise. A freaking werewolf sounding like an earthquake when it's growling, lots of bass, annoying, overpopulated noise with soundtracks that are most of the time derivative of other movies and basically just filler.

NOISE. Product placement. Unrealistic characters, because either the writer has no clue about building characters or the director doesn't know how to bring it out of the actors and actresses working on the movie. All dropped on the floor with MTV cutting and fancy camerawork that screams "look at me" rather than actually work for the story. Effects that stand out, look fake, swirls and screams "ain't I pretty, I cost so much money, just look at me"... to a nearly non-existing, worthwhile score, because the movie was in post production all the way up to the release date, so the composer didn't really get a chance to get a feel for the movie or what happened when, when he had to write it.

Hollywood has been dead for a long time. Filled with crack-heads, running around thinking they are important. And with good, earnest, hard working people who bust their ass off to make the world of the movie look good. Time for these people to take over the control of Hollywood. They have the talent. They have the drive. They just need new leadership, as the leadership drains them of talent for their uninspired, gutless projects.

It's not that they don't REALIZE it's because the movies are bad, it's that they're stuck between a rock and a hard place and they cannot think past 15 minutes or three pictures into the future. Plus, from what I gather, it's the MARKETING guys who run the show now. What they know is how to SELL to you, not how to MAKE.

On top of that, they have hugely expensive films now. If someone is investing HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars into a film, they want a return on that investment. They do NOT want Waterworld.

So, take your pieces and look at them together. You have sales guys who know how to close a deal, and investment guys who demand a return on their money or they'll withhold cash for the next gig. You've got a highly competitive system where you're only as good as your last picture, so...what do you do? Take a risk, or play it down the center?

The safe move is what seems to happen. Yes, audiences are declining, but MY movie got in the biggest audience. And how did it do that? Well, it's all thanks to my marketing. I took my [1980s action figure line brand name], and I took an otherwise unremarkable turd of a script, into which I then had my script doctor infuse the characteristics of the brand. Then I hired some actors based on internet buzz (Sweet! Free focus groups!), filmed it in a month, and then had my post-production team CGI the hell out of it. And the end result? Well, I'm proud to say that The Centurions went on to be a summer hit. Even though by all counts, the audiences continue to shrink. And next summer? We'll do the same thing, either with Centurions 2, or with the next branded property.


Why would you take a risk if (A) a bajillion dollars are on the line, (B) your JOB is on the line, and (C) it's a lot easier to just do what worked before than to reinvent the wheel, even if reinventing the wheel might mean you get to the automobile? Why roll the bones when I've got a sure thing here? Or at least as close to a sure thing as my marketing sense can guess. And besides, most of the time, I'm right!



What do you want to bet that if there was a movie about a futuristic commando team fighting out-of-control robots, that if you slapped on the basic underlying concepts of the Centurions, you wouldn't have a hit? I guarantee you there is someone, somewhere in Hollywood who has already thought of this and is working on a deal to make it happen, as I type this. I mean, the movie sells itself! Robots! Variable action suits (advacned ones, even!) with multiple different configurations beamed down by satellite in mid combat, so you can change configurations on the fly! Crazed cyborgs and still more robots! SPLOSIONS AND 360 PANS OH MY!!! And it's from the 80s, too! Our market research says everything 80s is gold again. You get the positive initial buzz from old-school fans who -- even if they gripe -- you KNOW will show up. You get the young kids who think the 80s are ironic, but who also love splosions, robots, and CGI f/x. You get a demographic of 11 to 35!!!! Maybe even younger if we can make it a PG-13 rating!! And given that it's robots and not humans getting blown away, that should be no problem! And just THINK of the merchandising options! This thing's gonna make a MINT!!!

 

[berger]

HEY!! i loved waterworld!!

movies i want to see sequels to:

daywatch
crank 2
groundhog day

what if bill murray wakes up and its groundhog day AGAIN? what if he slowly goes bat**** insane, and wakes up every day, only to blow his brains out as soon as his alarm goes off.... over... and over.... and over again? before finally deciding hes just going to start off-ing whoever the hell he feels like? killing random people and then blowing his brains out. over and over again!