Molds, ownership, and casting.

[sskunky]

1st gen, in this context is the first mold made from the Master Source.

1st gen mold owner has the rights... 2nd, 3rd, etc. has no rights, as they are recasters.

1st gen mold owner can give permission to someone to make a 2nd gen mold, but he has rights to limit number run - permission do not transfer to 3rd gen, etc.

If 1st gen mold owner sell his molds, he also sells his rights to the mold and the casts.

1st gen mold owner sells his molds, but demands no new casts be made... that's his/her right, but who in their right mind would buy?

Buying a casting does not transfer rights to make new molds, unless permission is given by 1st gen mold owner. Making a mold off a 1st gen cast makes a 2nd gen mold and has no rights to produce casts, as that is recasting.

At least... that's how I see it.

No permission from 1st gen mold owner to make new mold and casts is recasting!

HI,
I know this is a really old thread and the discussion of recasting has been said on many forums and I don't want to get into an arguement about recasting. I certainly don't want to step on anyones toes either as I am a newbie to this forum and I am not targeting anyone in particular. I just wanted to gain some insight into the what people consider right and wrong. And maybe offer my opinion wether it be correct or not.
BUT I don't understand what gives someone the right to recast someone elses work even if they have access to an original piece?

What I mean is that they are in effect recasting someones elses hard work/design.
Unless they have permission to recast from the original by the people involved in the original process of making and copyrighting the said piece. Or given liscence to do so, they are in effect copying/recasting.
I see this no differently to someone recasting the recast. ie 1st, 2nd 3rd etc.
After all, all they have done is copy a copy.
I know this is a really tricky subject and a lot of people get very passionate about it, but I still can't get my head around the difference between them?
If someone has sculpted a piece from scatch and this is recast I can understand the frustration and anger in their work being copied:cry but if someone recasts a screen used item they are doing just that 'RECASTING', they have not created an original piece of art. Yes they have been fortunate enough to gain access to an original but does this give them the right to recast it wether it is a 1st gen copy or not?

Is it ok for let's say me for arguments sake to recast something if I improve/ make more accurate or generally make something fit together better than what I purchased originally?
Also it seems this topic only seems to crop up on certain items like helmets and armor/costumes etc rather than the accessories that go with them.

Like I said this is a discussion not an aguement.

I look forward to some constructive critizism or views on this very tricky subject.

Mark.2 cents

 

[madrobot]

If someone buys your molds, they have a right to reproduce whatever the mold is of.

By selling a mold you relinquish all rights to whatever is produced by the molds. What would be the purpose of buying a set of molds, if you can't reproduce anything?

Unless the seller and buyer have an agreement that the buyer won't reproduce anything, the buyer can do whatever they choose to.

Now, here's where things get interesting.

Let's say you sell a set of mold. They make a few castings and then the molds go to hell. What happens when they remake the molds off of one of the castings? Does the property become theirs?

Something to ponder.

 

[defstartrooper]

Thomas i think if someone purchases a mold then absolutely they have ownership and should be able to produce items from it.
Of course there may be exceptions to the rule say for instance someone sells someone an original production mold and stipulates to the buyer that they will only sell it if the buyer agrees only to make castings for themselves.
One can argue that the original owner doesn't really have rights to make demands on what the mold is used for once sold but if this is agreed by both parties prior to sale then if the buyer breaks that agreement that in my eyes would be wrong.
It's an interesting point you bring up about if the buyer has the right to shout recasting if later on someone recasts a piece produced from that mold even though they did not sculpt or produce the original that the mold was produced from.
I think they do because i equate this to someone buying an original production piece and making and selling casts from it although they didn't create the original they do have the moral right at least to call someone out as a recaster if one of their copies is later copied by someone else.

 

[Newbie Doobie]

I'd hate to disagree,but recasting,is recasting! No matter who recast what,whether it was from an original prop,or not,unless they have exclusive rights in writing to do so(copyright,licensing,etc.) If it's the original owner of a cast item they they made originally,then they have the rights to it,and all subsequent items made from that mould,unless they sell it without any stipulation as to what happens with them! It's hard to prove that you are the owner of a product without any corroborating evidence. If someone wanted to make items with a mould I made - I would gladly let them do whatever they want with it! I have no problem with someone recasting my work,if they wanted to,as I really don't make castings to sell stuff with. I'd really rather have someone else do it than me-if the they have the resources,more power to them! But,that's just my take on it 2 cents,as this is all my opinion is worth on this subject!

 

[defstartrooper]

I'd hate to disagree,but recasting,is recasting! No matter who recast what,whether it was from an original prop,or not,unless they have exclusive rights in writing to do so(copyright,licensing,etc.) If it's the original owner of a cast item they they made originally,then they have the rights to it,and all subsequent items made from that mould,unless they sell it without any stipulation as to what happens with them! It's hard to prove that you are the owner of a product without any corroborating evidence. If someone wanted to make items with a mould I made - I would gladly let them do whatever they want with it! I have no problem with someone recasting my work,if they wanted to,as I really don't make castings to sell stuff with. I'd really rather have someone else do it than me-if the they have the resources,more power to them! But,that's just my take on it 2 cents,as this is all my opinion is worth on this subject!

You're correct recasting is recasting in a legal sense but it's a general concensus that it's ok to rip off studios property just not eachothers.
It's a replica prop forum for replica propmakers pretty much everything is bootleg here.

 

[sskunky]

I'd hate to disagree,but recasting,is recasting! No matter who recast what,whether it was from an original prop,or not,unless they have exclusive rights in writing to do so(copyright,licensing,etc.) If it's the original owner of a cast item they they made originally,then they have the rights to it,and all subsequent items made from that mould,unless they sell it without any stipulation as to what happens with them! It's hard to prove that you are the owner of a product without any corroborating evidence. If someone wanted to make items with a mould I made - I would gladly let them do whatever they want with it! I have no problem with someone recasting my work,if they wanted to,as I really don't make castings to sell stuff with. I'd really rather have someone else do it than me-if the they have the resources,more power to them! But,that's just my take on it 2 cents,as this is all my opinion is worth on this subject!

AT LAST! I have to agree with you on this one, you have exactly the same point of view as me:thumbsup
Recasting is recasting no matter how you look at it.
To own an original prop and pour resin in to it and call those molds yours is all wrong unless I think, You improve those molds or modify them in some way. That is if we are to accept recasting at all. But to for example if I had a set of screen used Stormtrooper of armor and just filled it up with resin to make a mold and sold vac formed suits without doing anything to it, it's just recasting. It's no different from me buying one of these recasts and filling it up myself then vac forming suits and selling them. I am not ripping off the persons work that I bought it from as they haven't actually done anything except take a mold of someone elses work.
To say it is acceptable to rip off a studios work and not someones here is hypocritical. A replica is just that, casting a screen used item is not a replica but a recast copy. IMO.
It is a different matter if you sculpt and make your own molds entirely from scratch then that is a replica.
I am not going to say anyone here is right or wrong but it is fun to see what everyone thinks.:angel

Mark.

 

[GINO]

That opinion is why people like myself and others who DO have cast from original pieces aren't sharing them.

Ironically, it's the same people with that opinion that tend to complain that "the haves" hoard special pieces instead of sharing them.

1+1= no special props for you

.

 

[defstartrooper]

AT LAST! I have to agree with you on this one, you have exactly the same point of view as me:thumbsup
Recasting is recasting no matter how you look at it.
To own an original prop and pour resin in to it and call those molds yours is all wrong unless I think, You improve those molds or modify them in some way. That is if we are to accept recasting at all. But to for example if I had a set of screen used Stormtrooper of armor and just filled it up with resin to make a mold and sold vac formed suits without doing anything to it, it's just recasting. It's no different from me buying one of these recasts and filling it up myself then vac forming suits and selling them. I am not ripping off the persons work that I bought it from as they haven't actually done anything except take a mold of someone elses work.
To say it is acceptable to rip off a studios work and not someones here is hypocritical. A replica is just that, casting a screen used item is not a replica but a recast copy. IMO.
It is a different matter if you sculpt and make your own molds entirely from scratch then that is a replica.
I am not going to say anyone here is right or wrong but it is fun to see what everyone thinks.:angel

Mark.

True but then even sculpting your own or reworking something else to represent what is seen on screen is still theft and ripping off someones work unless you get licensed to do so from the studio or whatever company or individual owns the IP.
If everyone paid studios for a license this hobby would pretty much be non existant,the only reason licensed producers even exist is because people saw hobbyists making bootleg props and realised there was a market for it.

 

[sskunky]

Gino, I think you have got me wrong. My discussion is only me trying to get an idea of what is right and wrong. I'm not here to judge anyone and I happen to to have the belief that it is ok to do what you have done or do. I own a few pieces of stormtrooper armor ect not by you but from another couple of guys who I'm sure you know. And without people like your good self we wouldn't have very accurate armor etc.
I don't to upset anyone here and is not my intention do do so. What I mean when I talk about recasting it is that I am confused to what is alright for one person to do it and not another?

So please don't hold my opinion against me it is only a discussion not a judgement.

Mark.

 

[GINO]

What I gathered from your above post was that if you were to buy a helmet from me cast from an original (for example) and recast it (whether you modify it or not) that it is:
1. okay to do
2. is no different than me recasting said original prop.

(Is this not what you were saying? If I misunderstood, please let me know.)

The difference is, I would have recast the studios work (which is okay in our replica communities). Not from a legal standpoint of course, but from a "hobby ethics" standpoint.
And you would have recast me, (which is not okay in our replica communities). Not from a legal standpoint of course, but from a "hobby ethics" standpoint.

.

 

[micdavis]

I don't think recasting a studio original for sale is any LESS reprehensible than any other recasting. Period.

 

[Cenobyte]

when you sell a mold, unless you actually have a sellers agreement that says the buyer wont make copies anymore... you are selling the "rights" to the process and castings.

What would the purpose in buying a mold you cannot make items from?

 

[Newbie Doobie]

You've both reinforced my point! Let me explain. The reason for licensing is to keep people from stealing an idea,much like patenting,but only this is a limited service provided by the original rights owner. This allows them to make a reasonable replica without fear of legal ramifications. This also allows the copyright owner to control the quality of the product the license holder produces,and helps to eliminate bootleg copies that are inferior. Many fans wish to have something that looks like an item,or prop from their favourite movie,and haven't the resources to do so. This is where licensing comes in. After the license has expired(if it has done so),then many people feel it's ok to replicate this by recasting it. This is why this forum exists,to help people who otherwise wouldn't have the resources to do so! On the other hand, there are those who think just because there's no license that there're no rules. This is wrong! Whoever has the original copyright has the legal means to do what they wish with their product. Whereas,a person making an illegal recast is just breaking the trust of the original copyright holder!

 

[GINO]

I don't think recasting a studio original for sale is any LESS reprehensible than any other recasting. Period.

Then by that logic the part of our hobby who is only interested in cast from original stuff should pack it up and quit right now.
In my opinion 99% of scratch built pieces suck, and licensed pieces are not screen accurate enough for some. Again, from my standpoint of wanting total screen accuracy.

.

 

[micdavis]

No, just accept the concept that it's reprehensible. Stop pretending it's a gray area.

Or use the original casting as a guide and sculpt your own.

 

[Newbie Doobie]

Recasting is recasting,no matter who does it. I agreed to the rules of this forum when I signed up for registration,but I'm not going to recast anyones' work,but rather I'll make my own version. This way I can control the quality of the product I make,and it won't be a recast! I like challenging myself,and sculpting is a lot harder than it looks! Especially when the accuracy,and symmetry need to be spot on! If,you're going for accuracy,yes recasting their work would be more accurate,but hypocritical! If it's wrong for us to recast one persons' work,then shouldn't it be wrong for us to recast anyones' work?:unsure That's(once again)just my 2 cents worth!

 

[GINO]

Or use the original casting as a guide and sculpt your own.

lollol:lol
The screen accurate crowd is all laughing at this post in unison.

.

 

[GINO]

Yes, it is hypocritical for us to recast the studios' work but not each other.
That's what 'honor amongst thieves' is all about.
If you are a person who only collects screen accurate (cast from original) pieces, in order to acquire anything or have a thriving collection, you must live by those 'hypocritical ethics'.

That is why these people tend to offer or trade almost exclusively amongst like minded hobbyists.

.

 

[micdavis]

If your sole talent is to copy directly, well I guess you have to live with what you got.

 

[GINO]

If your sole talent is to copy directly, well I guess you have to live with what you got.

Well I can't speak for everyone, but I'm confident in my skill sets which are multifaceted.
And I'm also quite happy with what I've got (and will continue to get).


On the other hand, I would offer Micdavis' quote up for the same people who don't subscribe to the honor amongst thieves philosophy of prop collecting.
Be happy with your inaccurate scratch built and semi-accurate licensed pieces because anyone with the cast from original stuff isn't going to trade with you.

.