Molds, ownership, and casting.

SithLord

Sr Member
I saw this question and reply in the junkyard about molds and had some questions about it. Keep in mind that by "rights" I simply mean some bit of exculsivity in regard to utility of an item in the hobby sense.


<div class='quotetop'>(Lord_Gita @ Jul 30 2006, 11:09 AM) [snapback]1290667[/snapback]</div>
<div class='quotetop'>(GundamZeppelin @ Jul 30 2006, 10:53 AM) [snapback]1290659[/snapback]
I would think if you bought the molds you have the rights to them?
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I'd Agree. If you bought the molds then you can do what you want with them, including making more molds.
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I found this interesting and so wanted to follow up on it further. Out of natural curiosity...or simply ignorance on my part :). Consider it a point of information.


So does that mean that if one has molds then one has the "rights" to anything that comes out of them because they own the molds? Or they simply can do with the molds what they wish, but have no say in regard to what happens to the castings coming out of their molds?

If one makes a casting of a chestbox, for example, using the mold that one now owns, then if someone molds that casting to make additional copies, could the owner of the mold call that person out on recasting because he owns the molds? Or do we simply regard recasting as being limited to original works, which is what I had assumed.

Is there any difference between ownership of a casting and ownership of a mold? Neither involves artistic contribution by the owner.

And if a mold is made from something owned by someone else....would the mold owner still have rights? I am guessing not, which would then complicate rights to a mold based on ownership.

Although there is no mention of mold ownership in the CoC, some time ago the CoC stated this in regard to recasting:

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"Deliberately recasting another memberÂ’s work or property without permission is something this community does not support. A member found selling/trading items recast from another member without permission will face possible removal from the RPF."
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Which later changed was revised to reflect what it is today:

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7. Selling/trading of recast items:
Deliberately recasting another memberÂ’s creation without permission is something this community does not support. A member found selling/trading items recast from another member without permission will face possible disciplinary action.
-------------------------------------------- [/b]


A mold, at least in my view, is not an artistic creation. It's simply a negative replica of an original creation or casting. Previously here, recasting encompassed not only original works but another member's property. The revised version excluded consideration of ownership. So I'm curious whether being able to do what one wants with the mold they own means they have the right to do so and so have "rights" so to speak to what they make with that mold...at least insofar as someone else in the hobby remolding/recasting the products of the member's mold(s)?

Any feedback/insights/opinions/discussion welcome....
 
<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jul 30 2006, 10:05 PM) [snapback]1290966[/snapback]</div>
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7. Selling/trading of recast items:
Deliberately recasting another member's creation without permission is something this community does not support. A member found selling/trading items recast from another member without permission will face possible disciplinary action.
-------------------------------------------- [/b]
[/b][/quote]


I would think that if a seller sold his molds to a person, he is consenting to that person using them to make additional pieces, and or make a positive to create another mold from. I can't see much other benefit to owning the original mold other than making additional pieces, unless it's something famous like a mold from a studio that you cherish. I would think it'd make common logical sense to think that if someone wants to buy my molds then they want to make additional pieces. Therefore if I sell it to him I am giving consent to that. If I don't consent then I won't sell them to him.
 
I agree with corranhornjje. Selling a mould of an item, implies that the buyer has a right to reproduce an item from said mould. Why the heck else would someone want the mould to something in the first place. I think it should be the burdon of the seller to make it clear they wish no castings to be made for sale if that is their intent. The moulds typically cost more than a single set of castings from the moulds. Nobody in their right minds would buy a mould for the purposes of creating one or two castings just for themselves.

Just my opinion of course.

Dave :)
 
when you sell a mold, unless you actually have a sellers agreement that says the buyer wont make copies anymore... you are selling the "rights" to the process and castings.

if you have that agreement, and someone violates it, then they are an @#$%., and deserve to be beaten with sticks about the face and shoulders.

if there is no "agreement" made, then the person who sold the mold also sold the "ok" to use it.

if i were to make a mold of my returns crystal and sell it, and not go "DONT SELL CASTINGS, but make as many as you want for personal display", i lose the right to bitch if they show up on ebay.

i have talked to several members, and gotten the "ok" to mold things to make 1 or 2 of them, and not to sell the extra castings. the idea really isnt that different.

if you sell the mold, you sell the rights to the piece, pretty much. or at least the right to bitch if castings are made from the mold.

chris
 
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when you sell a mold, unless you actually have a sellers agreement that says the buyer wont make copies anymore... you are selling the "rights" to the process and castings. [/b]

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What they said. The mold is the works, once it's out of your hands, it's out of your hands.[/b]

That pretty much sums it up.
 
<div class='quotetop'>(hydin @ Jul 30 2006, 11:25 PM) [snapback]1291004[/snapback]</div>
when you sell a mold, unless you actually have a sellers agreement that says the buyer wont make copies anymore... you are selling the "rights" to the process and castings.
[/b]


Great replies, thanks guys. :)

So you actually sell the "rights" to the process (mold) and the castings? So then if you make a casting from your own mold, no one can remold one of those casting without your permission? I never thought of molds in that way before...
 
If I sell off a set of molds - they are out of my hands as far as I'm concerned. I have no say over it either way and thats fine with me.

-Gary
 
<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jul 31 2006, 11:00 AM) [snapback]1291182[/snapback]</div>
<div class='quotetop'>(hydin @ Jul 30 2006, 11:25 PM) [snapback]1291004[/snapback]
when you sell a mold, unless you actually have a sellers agreement that says the buyer wont make copies anymore... you are selling the "rights" to the process and castings.
[/b]


Great replies, thanks guys. :)

So you actually sell the "rights" to the process (mold) and the castings? So then if you make a casting from your own mold, no one can remold one of those casting without your permission? I never thought of molds in that way before...
[/b][/quote]


I would think that if you sell the molds, you pretty much are done with anything that it derived from that mold. Period. Ad Infinatum. Same deal if someone makes a mold of a cast YOU made from that mold, meaning a 2nd generation.
 
I think we all seem to agree on this one. I will say that, though, someone would be absolutely insane to buy a mould that they can never use for whatever purposes they intend.............if that stipulation is part of the agreement between you the buyer and the guy you bought the moulds from...............you still have to honour that arrangement. It would suck not to be able to benefit from your new moulds, but a deal is a deal.......period. And I'm not talking about the seller saying something vague like " I wish you wouldn't make more copies of said items". It would have to be understood and it would be in writing. At least that is the way I'd handle it. Some folks that make deals around here, get really fuzzy memories the second you meet your side of the deal. The same folks don't like to put things in writing under any circumstances. I don't deal with people like that anymore..........ever.

Dave
 
1st gen, in this context is the first mold made from the Master Source.

1st gen mold owner has the rights... 2nd, 3rd, etc. has no rights, as they are recasters.

1st gen mold owner can give permission to someone to make a 2nd gen mold, but he has rights to limit number run - permission do not transfer to 3rd gen, etc.

If 1st gen mold owner sell his molds, he also sells his rights to the mold and the casts.

1st gen mold owner sells his molds, but demands no new casts be made... that's his/her right, but who in their right mind would buy?

Buying a casting does not transfer rights to make new molds, unless permission is given by 1st gen mold owner. Making a mold off a 1st gen cast makes a 2nd gen mold and has no rights to produce casts, as that is recasting.

At least... that's how I see it.

No permission from 1st gen mold owner to make new mold and casts is recasting.
 
I have "rented" molds to make casting for myself, and sent them back to the owners. I have bought a mold or two to not sell castings, and gotten a hell of a deal for em.

it isnt as weird as you would imagine :)

chris
 
<div class='quotetop'>(hydin @ Aug 3 2006, 09:52 AM) [snapback]1292895[/snapback]</div>
I have "rented" molds to make casting for myself, and sent them back to the owners. I have bought a mold or two to not sell castings, and gotten a hell of a deal for em.
it isnt as weird as you would imagine :)
chris
[/b]
Really? Cool. So... they are just sitting there... doing nothing? Won't they self-destruct over time?

Well... "renting" to make casts is to have gotten permission, imo... :)
 
nah, i got my casts out of them, and then either sold em back to the person, or just trashed em depending on the agreement we worked out.

it works out pretty well, but you have to trust the seller if you set something up like that ;)

anywho, off to beddy bye now.
chris
 
No Humor Man,
alot of folks think your way about ownership, but in the real world.........you had better make a solid written agreement and have the buyer sign it if you don't want future casts made out of the same mould or new moulds made from one of the castings. Once you sell something in the real world it belongs to the buyer with no strings attached. You had better have a solid contract if you sell moulds to someone or else you can't cry "recaster..." like some folks around here are prone to do.

Again, if you offered up moulds in the junkyard........and I paid for the moulds and you didn't specify in the deal that the production stops with me.............you'd be crazy to think I wouldn't offer castings from the mould......and before I made the second one.......I'd remould a casting to preserve the integrity of the mould in the event I needed a backup.

You gotta be 100% crystal clear about details of any "deal". Especially with some people on this very board who like to change the terms of the deal after the fact.............usually after you meet your side of the deal...........then they claim you are just mistaken about their side of the deal.

Get it in writing or run screaming.....that's my motto.

If you want to know who these guys are who change deals after the fact, and would like to avoid them........just PM me or email me anytime. I'll give ya an earful.

Dave :)
 
<div class='quotetop'>(vaderdarth @ Aug 3 2006, 02:56 PM) [snapback]1292967[/snapback]</div>
No Humor Man,
alot of folks think your way about ownership, but in the real world.........you had better make a solid written agreement and have the buyer sign it if you don't want future casts made out of the same mould or new moulds made from one of the castings. Once you sell something in the real world it belongs to the buyer with no strings attached. You had better have a solid contract if you sell moulds to someone or else you can't cry "recaster..." like some folks around here are prone to do.
[/b]
Oh yes, I totally agree - in writing is the key. I knew I missed something. Thanks. :thumbsup
 
Good discussion.....I actually didn't realize how much weight was put on the molds if they were 1st gen. It makes sense if the permissions are based on generation of mold. Question then.... so having such a system based on the 1st gen mold....what rights does someone have with that first gen mold if there was someone with the original casting in their private collection? Would that change anything?
 
<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Aug 3 2006, 10:37 PM) [snapback]1293280[/snapback]</div>
Good discussion.....I actually didn't realize how much weight was put on the molds if they were 1st gen. It makes sense if the permissions are based on generation of mold. Question then.... so having such a system based on the 1st gen mold....what rights does someone have with that first gen mold if there was someone with the original casting in their private collection? Would that change anything?
[/b]
You mean the master, which the mold was made from?
 
<div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Aug 3 2006, 10:59 PM) [snapback]1293299[/snapback]</div>
<div class='quotetop'>(NoHumorMan @ Aug 3 2006, 04:41 PM) [snapback]1293282[/snapback]
You mean the master, which the mold was made from?
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yep.....
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Imo, the 1st gen mold owner has the rights. Though... I don't know what other people think. It would be nice to hear some opinions on this.
 
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