Is our Culture making killers?

[crabra comander]

Ok, let's say violent movies / TV shows ARE to blame - what about all the murderers and psychos prior to 1889? There were plenty of physchotic killers before then. Jack the Ripper, Jesse James, Billy the kid, Atilla the hun, and far more than that.

As soon as there were more than 2 people on this planet, crap started happening - and it happens in every country. It started before the internet, before TV, before movies, even before guns. Some people are just nuts.

-Fred

There so much more to take into account in this day and age. The exchange of ideas and information is almost instant with technology.

Before this time, killers and psychos were limited only to their sick and twisted devices. Nothing about them could've been linked to any sort of media driven ideas.

Look at the Gabrielle Giffords shooter. He was crazy, and his favorite movies were all sort of conspiracy driven alternate reality mumbo jumbo. Anyone with the smallest inkling of insanity in their blood can latch onto an idea and say, "This is how things really are and I NEED to do something about it!" Also, it's been said he didn't like watching TV or the news. And the movies he liked were hardly violent.

My 2 cents

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Honestly... the only thing you can blame movies and games for is that people may be more short tempered, but that's usually coupled with being barraged with constant commercials, work, daily stress, the feeling of being inadequate, the feeling of never having enough time, the feeling of being unaccepted if you are just you and not a bland shallow stereotype just like all the others, the feeling of not earning enough, the feeling of everything just falling down around you and on top of you all the time, the feeling of everything basically not mattering because... why should it matter when everything makes you feel lousy?

I don't buy the link. Sure, it is desensitizing people - just think of how people ran away from the train on the screen when one of the first movies were aired because they thought they'd be run over. How people were dead scared by Bela Lugosi as Dracula, how horribly frightened some people were when watching Alien... and how quaint and commonplace and being kind of boring and occasionally laughable for some now. Sure... it has an effect. That would be ridiculous to try to claim it didn't. But to make the jump and claim it is creating killers is just a step too far. It takes away accountability and responsibility from those doing the deeds and it becomes their defense and excuse in the minds of the public if it is uttered enough... but even the coward killers don't buy that excuse.

You can say that eating cheese makes killers and it will be just as correct. It's just a fallacy and an innate need to categorize and explain why these ****tards go out and do these things, so people can feel good about themselves by having something to blame that they can actually control.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Are our killers forming our culture?
Think about it the other way around.

People start talking censorship and reducing liberties for false sense of increasing security.

Who wins?

 

[Zuiun]

I think that part of the problem is that society is too quick to compartmentalize and remove these violent offenders from the "rest of us."

We want to think they are different. That they have "bad wiring" or some other "defect" that makes them not like us. Or that something "made" them do it. Normal people don't shoot 70 people in a theater, right???

Except that's not generally the case. Often these people aren't psychopathic, or sociopaths. Sometimes that's certainly the case, but it's not the norm.

There is a lot of thought now that many of the mass shooters / killers are really suffering from severe depression.

Normally, depression is an internalized illness. It can create a severe sense of self loathing. "Normal" people wonder how someone can commit suicide, but for a depressed person, they may actually come to believe they are better off dead. This can be the sad outcome untreated depression, and it's unfortunately very common.

Not so common is when that depression is somehow twisted from self-loathing to become more externalized. The same faulty logic that makes a person believe they are better off dead can translate to other people. This is how a person can murder/suicide their entire family. They may have convinced themselves they are doing everyone a favor. And this can also contribute to mass shootings.

Whenever this happens, we spend so much time convincing ourselves that people like this must be "psycho." We even become shocked that a seemingly normal person could do this ("oh, he was a quiet kid, but seemed so normal. I had no idea he was crazy."). But the reality is that these people often *are* relatively normal -- except that in many cases they have shown very clear signs of clinical depression.

Because depression is not really well understood or considered dangerous, people miss the warning signs.

And because people don't understand it, and don't want to believe that someone who isn't a sociopath or "psycho" could do this, we like to invent some "cause" that made them "snap" -- be it video games, or movies, or bullying, or playing albums backwards (a popular excuse in the 60's and 70's), or whatever.

Of course, I could be full of crap, but that's my take on it.

 

[3jack]

After reading the thread since I last posted I still stand by the fact do gooders blame movies WAY to quickly. There was a horrific case over here and they banned the original child's play. There was no mention of why the parents let their sick ####s watch the movie, no just ban the film it's easier than looking at the big picture.

As I said earlier I was basically brought up watching violent films never once have I thought I'm gonna grab a chainsaw and go on a rampage.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Of course, I could be full of crap, but that's my take on it.

You could. But at least you present your case well.

And yes... not all these ****tard coward shooters are psychos. But they are unquestionably cowardly scum.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

After reading the thread since I last posted I still stand by the fact do gooders blame movies WAY to quickly. There was a horrific case over here and they banned the original child's play. There was no mention of why the parents let their sick ####s watch the movie, no just ban the film it's easier than looking at the big picture.

As I said earlier I was basically brought up watching violent films never once have I thought I'm gonna grab a chainsaw and go on a rampage.

That's the control after the fact aspect I was talking about earlier. Banning things they can control, but they cannot control their own or others' children... because... that's way too hard. Lazy cows.

 

[Mullreel]

If you are truly interested in this topic I would recommend a book.

On Killing by Lt Col Dave Grossman.

I do not blame movies or games for the fact that the murders happen. I do believe in desensitizing and the effects that it has on people. It is a basic training technique. It is used in military and LE on a regular basis.

 

[nick daring]

If you are truly interested in this topic I would recommend a book.

On Killing by Lt Col Dave Grossman.

I do not blame movies or games for the fact that the murders happen. I do believe in desensitizing and the effects that it has on people. It is a basic training technique. It is used in military and LE on a regular basis.

Yeah the changes in military training and it's effectiveness in the last century is stunning.

Desensitization is a very real thing.

Nick

 

[3jack]

I can sort of see the arguement for depression I've been there, thought about offing myself but never thought about taking anyone out first. The scum bag in the TDKR shooting didn't have the #######s to turn the gun on himself. I truly hope that this sick ##### dies a long a very painful death .

 

[Jeyl]

And yes... not all these ****tard coward shooters are psychos. But they are unquestionably cowardly scum.

I don't know Garlic. When these guys commit to what they want to do, that's now cowardice. What they did was unsettling, dangerous and irredeemable. I would cower from that in a second. These psychos are not cowards. We WISH they were cowards.

 

[jlee562]

It's baffling how you continue to miss my point. I'm not saying no one learned about it, I'm saying that it's possible that it didn't spread AS FAST or was part of the new cycle AS LONG.

Let me state this again, in the vain hope it will be understood. I am suggesting the possibility that given the current media environment a perception of increased violence may exist that is contrary to proven data. That with more IMMEDIATE sources for news and the increased sensationalism of negative news stories that more reporting on statistically fewer killings could lead people to erroneously believe that there is an increase in crime. I'm not claiming this possibility to be a fact, I'm making a supposition. It's conjecture.

Take it or leave it, but don't put words in my mouth.

If that's the point you want to make now, fair enough, I totally agree with that, and have said as much myself in this thread. The point you make about perception of crime is indeed true.

Most Americans Believe Crime in U.S. Is Worsening

PRINCETON, NJ -- Despite a sharp decline in the United States' violent crime rate since the mid-1990s, the majority of Americans continue to believe the nation's crime problem is getting worse, as they have for most of the past decade. Currently, 68% say there is more crime in the U.S. than there was a year ago, 17% say less, and 8% volunteer that crime is unchanged.

However, I am most certainly NOT putting words in your mouth. This is what you wrote on the first page:

Sure, because of 24 hour news and the internet we hear about this violence a lot more. Sensationalism and all that. Not hearing about the violence so much prior to the internet doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that not everyone and their dog knew about it.

This IS an argument that people didn't know about the violence, whether you meant to make that argument or not.

Semantics. As the link you posted points out, people are still being arrested and charged with child abuse by states for simply spanking their children. That's no different than laws being passed!

Wrong on both counts. Whether a law has or has not been passed is not a matter of semantics. Further, the link does NOT say that people are being arrested, it says that the laws should be construed to constitute a legal defense IF one is arrested.

In any event, this particular point is really more of a tangent than anything else. The point is that there is demonstrable harm from corporal punishment.

And of course the larger point which you have continually failed to address that is the drop off in violent crime suggests that your thesis that "lax parenting" leads to violence is simply unfounded.

 

[Kerr Avon]

In any event, this particular point is really more of a tangent than anything else. The point is that there is demonstrable harm from corporal punishment.

The "people" who say there is demonstrable harm are the very people who are looking to cash in on classifying it as abuse so they can provide 'therapy' They're full of ****. There are absolutely times when a spanking IS the correct course of action and the articles you cited even state that. Did you even read them?

 

[Kerr Avon]

I don't know Garlic. When these guys commit to what they want to do, that's now cowardice. What they did was unsettling, dangerous and irredeemable. I would cower from that in a second. These psychos are not cowards. We WISH they were cowards.

They specifically targeted people they knew would be unarmed. I didn't see them specifically targetting people they knew that would have guns. That makes them cowards.

 

[3jack]

They specifically targeted people they knew would be unarmed. I didn't see them specifically targetting people they knew that would have guns. That makes them cowards.

Entirely true, you want to prove you're not a coward, do that #### at a shooting range/shop see how you get on. A movie theatre/high school where you're very unlikely to have shots returned just shows me they're cowards and absolute scum of the earth.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I don't know Garlic. When these guys commit to what they want to do, that's now cowardice. What they did was unsettling, dangerous and irredeemable. I would cower from that in a second. These psychos are not cowards. We WISH they were cowards.

They are cowards. Killing unarmed people is cowardly behaviour. They think of themselves as cool, trained killers, but they wouldn't last two seconds against an armed opponent. They seek out soft targets because they are cowards.

EDIT: LOL... got beaten to it by the two previous posters.

 

[jlee562]

The "people" who say there is demonstrable harm are the very people who are looking to cash in on classifying it as abuse so they can provide 'therapy' They're full of ****. There are absolutely times when a spanking IS the correct course of action and the articles you cited even state that. Did you even read them?

Right....it's a giant psychological conspiracy to push therapy on everybody! This is an ad hominem argument, and in no way, shape, or form, disproves anything.

Why don't you cite the section in the article I posted which you believe says spanking is the "correct" course of action. The first quoted section says that spanking can be effective in getting immediate compliance, but at the cost of long term moral judgments.

Given that you took my first post in this thread where I said that I wasn't interested in censorship and that films do NOT have a monocausal effect, and seemed to believe I somehow said the exact opposite, I have little confidence that you're the one who read the articles and accurately absorbed the information therein.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Well, let's face it, if we weren't desensitized somehow, every tragedy in the cruel world brought to us by media would have us in fits of gloom.
Before movies and games there were books and plays with violence.
Go far enough back, stories around the fire of warriors and no doubt tales of murder both human and of myth.

A natural way of how we learn to cope and have emotional buffers to
stay removed, that doesn't mean not concerned of course.

And obviously, anyone whose job may demand of them to end life violently on the rest of our behalf, needs to be able to do that job without breaking down.

So there is this other side to it, that must be recognized.

 

[Jeyl]

They specifically targeted people they knew would be unarmed. I didn't see them specifically targetting people they knew that would have guns. That makes them cowards.

I'm sorry, but I don't see that being the case. Being a coward stems from fear which causes an individual to not do something. A soldier who can't bring himself to fight an enemy that's trying to kill him and his friends is a coward. Someone who intentionally chooses to kill unarmed innocent civilians and doesn't break down while doing it is not a coward because those are his targets. If these psychos wanted to go after only armed people but still shoot unarmed civilians, I still wouldn't call them cowards because they're not afraid to do these horrible acts.

 

[nick daring]

Media consumption is pretty nutty now. I think studies the average person watches 5-6 hours of TV a day. That's not counting the articles we read on our phone, and the movies we see in the theatert and the games we play. That's

Books and plays would be consumed on a weekly basis at most! A story around the fire also offers a layer of abstraction and a buffer to the terrors of the story being conveyed. Seeing people getting gunned down every hour on the hour 24/7 seven is gonna lead to a changed perspective of some sort.

I think our rising obsession with ingesting stories in general might be a symptom of greater anxieties that are building in parallel. Our need for fantasy violence might not be causal to real violence but they might both be reactions to similar societal anxieties.

Nick