Is our Culture making killers?

[jlee562]

But the fact is that the delusions are often already in place and the violent media only helps to reinforce certain thoughts of violence.

Exactly.

Most of the arguments here are against movies as a monocausal influence.

That's great, I don't think movies (or video games, or guns in and of themselves) taken for their own, will cause hypothetical nutcase x to go on a rampage, and that if he had only not seen Terminator (arbitrarily picked Terminator because of the OP) that he wouldn't have gone on a rampage.

That's missing the point.

If we are going to discuss culture, than we have to discuss all aspects of culture and the way in which culture is reproduced from generation to generation.

 

[jlee562]

Well overall for the country. Too lazy to look up Miami, LA, Detroit, NY, and Chicago specifically.

20 years of decreasing national crime rates. I'll bet there's more media outlets, and with it more media coverage now than 20 years ago.

There I go being absurd again

There's actually less media outlets now. The promulgation of the internet has significantly effected newspapers, which have gotten increasingly conglomerated. There's only a handful of companies which control newsmedia in the US now.

e.g.

 

[Amish Trooper]

Nope I think our culture is making self entitled little S***bags that have zero respect due to taking the powers away from parents and that we all need to hug and talk about our feelings.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

I think that films, books and other media can reinforce anybody's delusions. Just cross-reference Tolkien with the average Black Metal band and you'd think that Lord of the Rings is a neo-nazi pagan handbook that promotes extreme violence, race war and ludicrously overblown music ...

Well you can twist anything to fit your own view. A great deal of LotR was written during WWI but people constantly read into it allegories to WWII. As you point out you could easily read a racist slant into that book, and I could find an anti-gay agenda in it as well.

 

[jlee562]

Nope I think our culture is making self entitled little S***bags that have zero respect due to taking the powers away from parents and that we all need to hug and talk about our feelings.

I'd love to see any sort of hard evidence of this.

 

[Kerr Avon]

I'd love to see any sort of hard evidence of this.

If a dog bites someone, and isn't disciplined, and it develops an aggressive personality, then isn't the owner to blame?

 

[DuneMuadDib]

There's actually less media outlets now. The promulgation of the internet has significantly effected newspapers, which have gotten increasingly conglomerated. There's only a handful of companies which control newsmedia in the US now.

More major networks, more cable news networks, more internet social media sources.

I don't give a **** about parent companies. Did MSNBC, FOX News, Current TV, Google, Yahoo!, Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, Digg, Reddit, and whatever the hell else news is broadcast in this country exist 20 years ago? Could anyone pull out their phone and instantly get the news of a violent crime before the evening news broadcast it?

Honestly, tell me right now that 20 years ago the word of the DKR shooting would have spread so far and wide so fast as it did in this day and age.

 

[Amish Trooper]

I'd love to see any sort of hard evidence of this.

Dr. Jean Twenge, author of Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled and More Miserable Than Ever. Dr. Twenge of San Diego State University studied more than 16,400 students who took the Narcissistic Personality Inventory between 1982 and 2006. In 1982, only a third of the students scored above average on the test. Today that number is over 65%.

 

[Satxer]

Short answer: no!

Those doing those deeds holds all responsibility.

The notion is insulting to all those who've seen those movies, played those games, lived in this culture and HAVEN'T turned into a callous homicidal maniac.

This x over 9000.

The human brain is capable of so many things, being able to tell between fantasy and reality is one of them. I've played video games for hours upon hours, when I got done I didn't have any desire to commit the acts of the game I was just playing. Same with a movie, I just watched this awesome action movie, and it doesn't make me immitate the movie. All these things are a world of fantasy, not real, make believe, etc. If you can't tell the difference between reality and a game or movie, you probably shouldn't be interacting with these things in the first place.

The fact of the matter is, in this social media world, internet, tv and all that jazz, exposes us more to the bad things that happen in the world more than they did a couple decades ago. Look at news programs, they are out for shock factor, so they will show you things that make you angry, sad, or vengeful. I stopped really watching the news a long time ago, because when I did, all I found was anger and sadness.

A good for instance, look at the Batman shootings recently. How many of these theater incidents have nearly occured now. The day after you have a guy planning to go to a theater with an arsenal. A couple weekends ago, a guy came to our local theater, carrying a satchel with a glock, 3 clips, over 50 rounds and 2 knives. He took a tactical position in the theater planning to do something. Fortunately, he was noticed before the theater started seating, and a potential crisis was averted. You know what, I was at that theater that same weekend. If anything, people come out of the woodwork when bad things happen. It's quite scarey to say the least.

So, I have zero belief that video games or movies create killers. It is what the killers "want" you to think, that is how they get off the hook.

 

[Kerr Avon]

Dr. Jean Twenge, author of Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled and More Miserable Than Ever. Dr. Twenge of San Diego State University studied more than 16,400 students who took the Narcissistic Personality Inventory between 1982 and 2006. In 1982, only a third of the students scored above average on the test. Today that number is over 65%.

Because each one of them now is a pretty special and unique snowflake which was given 'participation' trophies or not allowed to keep scores in games.

 

[nick daring]

I always liked James Cameron's response in an old Aliens interview about the subject of movie violence and how it affects audiences. To paraphrase he said something along the lines that the cathartic value of fantasy violence in film is probably just as powerful and the inspirational value if not more. I know that I use violence in movies as a release of my own anxiety's and frustrations. I'm sure that for some people seeing the same thing does act as an example of how to deal with a problem.

Fight Club comes to mind. The movie's ultimate message is one of compromise. You shouldn't let your baser instincts control you no matter how righteous they feel. Some people forget the ending and fall in love with the movies initial thrust of self empowerment and exploring violence and chaos as a mode of expression and problem solving. Lots of people started real fight clubs after that movie came out and considered Tyler Durden a hero despite the greater theme of the narrative.

Tricky subject but an interesting one.

Nick

 

[jlee562]

If a dog bites someone, and isn't disciplined, and it develops an aggressive personality, then isn't the owner to blame?

Do I really have to explain that people are not dogs?

Dr. Jean Twenge, author of Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled and More Miserable Than Ever. Dr. Twenge of San Diego State University studied more than 16,400 students who took the Narcissistic Personality Inventory between 1982 and 2006. In 1982, only a third of the students scored above average on the test. Today that number is over 65%.

Ok, and this statistic is supposed to be significant in what way with relation to your point about parenting?

 

[Amish Trooper]

Ok, and this statistic is supposed to be significant in what way with relation to your point about parenting?

I gave place to start and shouldn't have to do it for you. :lol

 

[Kerr Avon]

Do I really have to explain that people are not dogs?

No, but we're both animals, not vegetable or mineral, which means we have a lot of the same basic responses, including to discipline and going feral.

 

[jlee562]

I gave place to start and shouldn't have to do it for you. :lol

It's not my job to make your argument for you.

If you can't back up your argument with evidence, you haven't made an argument at all really.

No, but we're both animals, not vegetable or mineral, which means we have a lot of the same basic responses, including to discipline and going feral.

The differences between a human brain and a dog's brain when it comes to higher levels of thinking are simply far too different to make your analogy useful, in spite of how much you wish it to be.

To take another angle, we have long known about the correlation between physical abuse of animals and physical abuse of people. That is, those who commit acts of cruelty against animals are more likely to commit acts of cruelty against humans. Likewise, those who were mentally or physically abused as children are more likely to mentally or physically abuse their own children.

These are two long established empirical observations.

With this in mind, let us re-examine your analogy. You can discipline your dog and teach him not to bite. But you can also traumatize your dog with too much discipline (or the wrong kind of discipline) which would make him more aggressive and more likely to bite.

No?

 

[jlee562]

More major networks, more cable news networks, more internet social media sources.

I don't give a **** about parent companies. Did MSNBC, FOX News, Current TV, Google, Yahoo!, Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, Digg, Reddit, and whatever the hell else news is broadcast in this country exist 20 years ago? Could anyone pull out their phone and instantly get the news of a violent crime before the evening news broadcast it?

Honestly, tell me right now that 20 years ago the word of the DKR shooting would have spread so far and wide so fast as it did in this day and age.

No, they didn't exist 20 years ago. But there were a lot more radio stations, there were a lot more newspapers.

My point has nothing to do with the speed at which news spreads. I agree and have already acknowledged that technology changes the pace at which news spreads. But the idea that the population didn't hear about mass shootings because of a lack of media coverage 20 years ago - which was your original assertion - that's just silly.

Do you really think that the west coast didn't hear about the St. Valentine's day massacre or the haymarket riots? Do you think the east coast didn't hear about the gunfight at the OK corral? It may have taken longer, but the public knew of these events. It's not as if they were only reported regionally.

 

[Amish Trooper]

If I was I interested in doing the work for you I would but I see no point. You are the one who asked for something to support my statement. I gave you the tool to be able to provide yourself with what you want. It's not my duty to I inform you nor do your work for you.

 

[Kerr Avon]

With this in mind, let us re-examine your analogy. You can discipline your dog and teach him not to bite. But you can also traumatize your dog with too much discipline (or the wrong kind of discipline) which would make him more aggressive and more likely to bite.

No?

And the exact opposite is true, where you stare at the dog and talk in a baby voice, "Now little Johnny you aren't going to bite anyone else anymore right? You're just going to be a good little doggy, right?" No, you smack it's snout hard in the very least. You apply corporal punishment. You don't treat it like someone or something you can have a rational discussion with.

And by the way, the only real difference is intelligence level between dogs and humans. Both species respond the same to the same kind of stimulus. Don't think we're so elevated from animals, because we aren't.

 

[jlee562]

If I was I interested in doing the work for you I would but I see no point. You are the one who asked for something to support my statement. I gave you the tool to be able to provide yourself with what you want. It's not my duty to I inform you nor do your work for you.

.....the single statistic you cited has no clear relation to your point about "taking powers away from parents."

I'm asking for the connection between these two points which you made. I'm not asking you to recite the thesis of the book.

The fact that there is a greater proportion of kids scoring on some personality test demonstrates NOTHING about parenting in and of itself. It is simply a number. The number could have gone up for any number of reasons that may or may not have anything to do with parenting. For example, is the test the exact same test for the entire duration of the study? A cursory check of wikipedia, reveals that this is NOT the case in reality.

Narcissistic Personality Inventory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI) is the most widely used measure of narcissism in social psychological research. Although several versions of the NPI have been proposed in the literature, a forty-item forced-choice version (Raskin & Terry, 1988) is the one most commonly employed in current research.

Since the most common model was only introduced in 1988, it is not entirely appropriate to compare those results against a different test.

That's just one way in which your argument is flawed. The singular statistic you posted tells us nothing about the effects of "taking away powers from parents" which was your original assertion.

 

[Kerr Avon]

.....the single statistic you cited has no clear relation to your point about "taking powers away from parents."

I'm asking for the connection between

Many places are making it illegal to spank your children, classifying it as child abuse. How is that anything but "taking powers away from parents"?

Do you think things like this happen when children are properly disciplined?
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120815/NEWS0107/308150032