Ill probably get my head bitten off but....

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by _Lee_, Jan 27, 2006.

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  1. _Lee_

    _Lee_ Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Firstly,although i am relatively new here, i have been collectin for a while and have been following many recent threads,both here and at other forums.The main point in this thread is basically to put my opinion out there and see how many others feel the same way.

    One particular subject really bugs me,and that subject is recasting/recasters.Now i know this may infuriate many people but i am getting sick to death of reading up how so many people are getting annoyed because somebody has apparently recast their work.This is sometimes laughable at times because the so-called 'cheated' parties,have done nothing more or nothing less that the people who recasted their work or design.For crying out loud,SW costumes are copyrighted items and there is no argument for any recaster IMO.Whether it be ST,TP,CT there is no way anyone can lay claim to anything unless you are Mr Lucas.Sometimes it makes me understand why Lucas is the way he is with regards to copyright infringement,but then you get people who think they have the right to act like Lucas because they are annoyed because people are infringing their work :rolleyes

    At the end of the day,if you own rights the items...moan till your heart is content,if not then stop moaning and "move along" :p

    Lee
     
  2. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    .....you may want to put some salt & pepper on your head..... :p
     
  3. DaddyfromNaboo

    DaddyfromNaboo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    well, I guess you didn´t do it properly, because this issue really has been discussed to length. And yes, your arguments have been brought up several times.

    So, KevVader is right, you better shave that head so the feast can begin :lol

    Actually, I think this thread won´t last too long, since it is a bit obsolete ;)

    Michael
     
  4. Nexus6

    Nexus6 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    *fixes some popcorn & pulls up a chair*
     
  5. _Lee_

    _Lee_ Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Ok guys,sorry about that :)

    I have only been reading up on discussions from the past month or two and havent really looked back on older threads.It just seems as though a new thread starts up every few days about recasting,and it seems i just started another :angel
     
  6. SethB6025

    SethB6025 Well-Known Member

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    Or hotsauce, at least it might deter a few bites. You may want to do some homework, by the COC of the RPF, casting a screen used item is okay. (This is generally accepted in the prop world) However, RE-casting that cast, is not okay. Some see a problem there, most don't. In this neck of the woods, it's like it, or lump it. Really, how would you feel if you plunked down a bunch of cash on a real prop, risked damaging or destroying it to cast it, putting endless hours into producing an accurate item (whether you sculpted from scratch or cast an expensive prop), then having some scumbag who has minimal dollar investment & minimal time investment steal your work. A re-caster rarely cares about the quality of the prop, as it is often done as a means to make some easy money. It's about respect & trust. This is supposed to be a community. Yes, the endless arguements do become tiresome, but having your work ripped off is far worse.
     
  7. Gigatron

    Gigatron Sr Member

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    You're getting tangled up in the differences between copywriting, recasting and intellectual properties.

    Noone here has recast any of LFL's property. At most, we are guilty of copywrite infringement.

    Anybody here who recreates any prop or costume as seen in any LFL film, is guilty of copywrite infringement - BUT the piece they built themselves is not a recast. And if you modify the said piece in anyway so that there is a noticible difference, it becomes your intellectual property. The same way that Graflex, Inc., MPP or Sterling cannot sue LFL for infringement or theft, LFL can't sue you for making a saber.

    Even if you built a saber using the same exact parts that LFL used (assuming we ever figure out what those * grips were made from) you're safe until you try to sell them. At that point, you're infringing on both LFL and Master Replicas. But you can come up with your own design and sell those to your hearts content.

    Now, there are times when we see something we like that is not commercially available. The most recent case I can think of is those Power Ranger Morphy thingies. An artist here took time to sculpt his own because none were available. He is still guilty of copywrite infringement, but because there a no available sources, they are his intellectual property. The scum on ebay who bought one and recast it, is guilty of recasting and theft of an intellectual property.

    See the difference?

    -Fred
     
  8. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    Your arguments might hold a little more water if you understand that there is no word "recasted"

    Anybody that uses that word in their argument should be hence forth ignored.
     
  9. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    This could not be farther from the truth.

    I can think of a dozen people on this board who have done EXACTLY that.

    All it boils down to on this board is if you are the FIRST person to recast LFL stuff it's "okay" or if you are an original sculptor of something, you are granted first "pirate" rights. As stupid as that sounds that how it stands today.
     
  10. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    If you survive this you will have taken a step into a larger world, that is IF you survive this
     
  11. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    Just to add to Gigatron's excellent post: No one is claiming any rights or owner ship of the design. If I make a sculpt of Darth Vader's helmet from scratch, I have no claim to the image of Darth Vader. However, this is my Darth Vader helmet. It is my representation of this design which belongs to Lucas Film Ltd. I put in the effort. I researched, and I invested the time and money to make it. The problem with recasters is that they do not put in the effort to create the master work. They take someone elses scratch built master, dump some mold material over it, and start turning them out to sell.

    Now, you do have an argument that the sculptor of the master has no license to sell duplicates of his creation. The intellectual property and copyright belongs to Lucas Film Ltd. and they have not given him permission to sell or distribute that likeness. It is up to LFL if they want to do anything about it.

    However, two wrongs do not make a right. The fact that the sculptor of the master work did not have a disrtibuion agreement LFL does make it okay for someone to buy a copy, dump mold material over it, and start compeating with the master sculptor with his own sculpt. The Recaster made no investment of time, money, effort, and tallent in creating the piece. That is what we have a problem with. Again, no one is questioning ownership of the intellectual property or copyright. It is the ownership and usage of the master work that is in question. I for one agree with RPF opinion that recasters are the scum of the Earth.
     
  12. _Lee_

    _Lee_ Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So i should be ignored because i simply stated an incorrect meaning? For crying out loud,i am just stating an opinion.
     
  13. slave1pilot

    slave1pilot Sr Member

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    If you really want to avoid getting YOUR work recast, keep it to yourself.
    As soon as it hits the streets, it'll be recast (if it's any good)
    The reason copyright infringement exists is because the person who has the copyright on an item,does not want anyone else to make money off of that item.
    Same thing applies here.
    When someone recasts "original" work, it is normally done to sell & make money.
    The "creator" misses out on extra cash.
    That's my opinion, & I'm kinda hard-headed, so I'll probably not be swayed .


    BTW- I don't recast, heck I don't even cast.

    _LEE_, after they get done with yours, the can chew my head off for dessert. :D
     
  14. _Lee_

    _Lee_ Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    So if someone owns a screen used item,it gives them the green light to start churning out replicas? Just because you own the an item,it doesnt mean you have the right to recast it.

    Put it this way,i would be more that happy to own a screen used OT Star Wars prop,and would never even think about recasting it.
     
  15. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ...and THAT is the $100 question....
     
  16. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Only untill you get a C & D.
     
  17. voice in the crowd

    voice in the crowd Sr Member

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    Lee I think the point you are making about screen used props that are cast by some of the prop making community seems to be a grey area to you. Just remember that the people who have went out and got screen used props have spent a hell of a lot of money getting them and a hell of a lot of time and effort to recreate them. These people also put their heads on the chopping block as they can be taken to court and hammered by the people who own the copyright to them (take the GF case as the prime example of LFL flexing their muscle).

    As an example if it wasn't for people like TE or GH we would never have anything close to what we wanted for the ANH Stormtrooper or ANH Vader. These guys have been recast ten times over but without their efforts these props wouldn't have seen the light of day.

    On the other hand you have guys like Chewie15 who make the most amazing scratch built sculpts and without their work the boards would be a lot less colourful. Recasting them is less of a grey area for people to understand but both crimes are the same.

    There is also no coincidence that a lot of recasters are notoriously unreliable and untrustworthy scammers on top of stealing peoples work.

    Recasters are basically people who want to make money without putting in any effort they want an easy path to cash and don't care how they do it.

    Cheers Chris.
     
  18. _Lee_

    _Lee_ Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thanks for the reply Chris :)

    I respectfully agree with the points you made.I think some of the things i said about screen used items were stated incorrectly.I was moreso trying to direct this feeling towards those who buy such props(which as we know are very hard to come by and reach astronomical prices)with the intent of churning out recasts.Some would only make enough to cover the cost of the original prop,but others keep knocking them out left right and center.

    Sorry if ive jumped into the deep end with this thread,but i just wanted to get more an insight into everyones thoughts.
     
  19. ReelManiac

    ReelManiac New Member

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    I don't think the numerous threads about recasting were regarding legalities- pretty much everybody here would agree that this hobby is full of illegal practices. I think the majority of gripes are about ethics within a community. Intentionally * another person over by recasting their work, knowing they can't do anything about it- that's just being an * and people like that need to be called out.
     
  20. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Well-Known Member

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    Well said Seth B....

    I wouldn't be foolish enough to claim any intelluctual right to the design of the ESB 'stunt' Stormtrooper blaster, yet I have spent a small fortune in order to offer other fans the opportunity to own a replica blaster cast from an original prop.
    Did I do this as a profit-making exercise? No way... I bought the blaster along with the original ROTJ Stormtrooper costume for several thousand £££'s for my own personal collection.
    I was contacted by a number of RPF'ers about the possibility of producing an original-cast replica of the ESB 'stunt'' blaster, and I put up a considerable amount of my own money to get professional moulds made from the original prop.
    And as Seth B pointed out, this was at risk of destroying or damaging it... it took a lot of soul-searching before I decided to go ahead with it... if part of the original resin blaster snapped off in the silicone rubber mould then I would have destroyed a valuable OT Star Wars prop, and still not be able to produce replicas.
    Of course I will make *some* money from it... I'm not a saint :angel
    BUT... the driving force behind my project was to alllow Stormtrooper fans the chance to get their hands on a blaster replica *cast from an original prop* - if someone else had been producing these replicas from an original prop I would've been first in line for one :)

    Now I'm not completely niave, and I realise that sooner or later someone will recast my ESB 'stunt' blaster, BUT....

    a.) It won't be cast from moulds which were made from an original prop as mine is

    b.) I've made minute 'tell-tale signs' in each and every replica I've produced so far... whoever recasts it will be identified and 'outed' from this community

    I've always been disgusted by recasters, but I didn't fully understand the extent of their actions before I embarked upon this project :angry

    Cheers,
    John
     
  21. HDPE

    HDPE Well-Known Member

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    Well said Stormtrooper/John. :)

    Now go back to those professional mould maker and do the same thing with your ROTJ armor and helmet.

    I'll be first on the list for...2. ;)

    Cheers mate. :thumbsup
     
  22. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    No body is questionin that selling "home made" versions of copyrighted material with out a license to do so is illegal. However, when the copyright owner is not licensing a product, it is often the only we have to get one. No, that doesn't make it right. It's just the fact of the matter. We either all make our own master versions or do with out. In a perfect world that is what we would do.

    Yes, if a fan-made piece is good it willl probably be recast. Again, it's just a fact of the matter. Again, that does not make it right. The recaster is a freeloading scum bag cashing in on the investment of a craftsman. As stated: Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Because these unlicensed sources are often the only way we will ever see some of these items, the community is understandably very protective of them. If a craftsman gets burned bad enough or often enough by recasters, then they may well cease to produce products and the community as a whole suffers. As you stated, if you don't want your work recast then don't sell it. That is what we as a community of collectors fear. Due to that, recasters will always be called out.

    I am not trying sway your opinion. It's a free country and you are welcome to it. However, I think that it is important to understand the perspective from the other side of the issue even if you don't agree with it. I understand where you are coming from, but your perspective hurts the community. We will never do away with recaster, but we have to try so that it is worth it to the craftsman to keep make copies of their work available.
     
  23. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    Can i just jump in here with something :angel . If i was to recast a rubies, but make subtle changes to it prior to recasting, would this make it my own work thus meaning i am not effectiveley making or indeed selling a rubies and claiming it as my own. But am making/selling a "modified" rubies based on my unique additions?
     
  24. RedTwoX

    RedTwoX Sr Member

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    Legally, no. You are still duping a licensed product. Monor changes are not sufficient to seperate it from the original maker. You are still a freeloading scum bag making a buck on someone elses work :lol Whether or not you get in legal trouble for it depends on whether or not Rubies thinks is it worth their time and money to send the lawyers after you. How the community reacts can even more difficult to predict. A "big company" with a license doesn't require the communities protection because the law is on their side. However, most of aren't too picky on the recasting issue. If you are trying to sell a product in the community, you would be better off starting from scratch, and I would strongly suggest documenting the build procedure so you can back up your claim. It's pretty tough to accuse someone of recasting when they can show the progression some lump of clay and pile of styrene to the finished product.
     
  25. dblank

    dblank Well-Known Member

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    Some people need to study English more. Every time recasting is brought up someone always says "recasting isn't a word". The word "Recast" is a neologism, Language is constantly evolving and words are added to Dictionaries every year. Cast = the form something is constructed, Adding the prefix "re-" means to do it again. Just because re-cast (recast) doesn't show up on your spellchecker doesn't mean it isn't a word.

    Learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neologism
     
  26. Matsuo

    Matsuo Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I say pour your lifeblood into a sculpt that you have made from scratch, only to have it copied (poorly) and sold cheaply...Then come back here and tell us how it feels.
    I will call BS on any answer other than "It sucks."

    You can yammer all day about intellectual property, legalities copyrights, and other high minded notions. Yet until you have worked your fingers raw trying to please the clamoring throngs who want neato swag, I'll not give credence to any of your so called opinions...Feel free to do likewise with mine.

    Recasting and recasters suck.

    If you still insist on damning everyone on a technicality then I demand you surrender every unlicensed, artisan made replica that you own immediately.

    *not directed at any one individual...there's many more than just one of you...* ;)

    Also as an aside, these threads are infinitely valuable to us artisan types as far as catching a glimpse of the stripe of our customer base and those whom we might not want to deal with for ethical reasons.



    M
     
  27. Rylo

    Rylo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This thread always pops up when we get a bunch of new recruits, Bro.

    You can't tell some of the new guys a thing...Why bother?

    Rylo

    NOTE: Best thing I've seen all day.

    Also as an aside, these threads are infinitely valuable to us artisan types as far as catching a glimpse of the stripe of our customer base and those whom we might not want to deal with for ethical reasons.

    ..............................................................................................................

    These threads are priceless for radar value alone. :thumbsup
     
  28. temponaut

    temponaut Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I don't think micdavis meant to imply that "recasting" and "recast" aren't words. He was pointing out that "recasted" is not the correct past tense and/or adjectival form of "recast," just as "casted" is not the correct past tense of "cast."

    The correct past tense/adjective of "recast" is "recast." :p
     
  29. Montagar

    Montagar Legendary Member Community Staff

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    Thank you, that just saved me a bunch of typing. :D
    (It is always amazing to me that people react to things without really looking at what they are reacting to)
     
  30. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    Lee, I think you should be more specific when you state your opinion. I assume you are talking about issues like the SDS one... and people who make replicas of copyrighted pieces...

    You forget that alot of the people who are annoyed about someone recasting their work are people who themselves have worked extremely hard to sculpt something from scratch or create something no one has ever created.
    For example(just an example out of many others I could have used) clonesix created the best episode 2 helmet by sculpting it. It was alot of hard work on his part. He doesnt own any copyrights to this helmet, but he had the right within the hobby to produce copys of his own work. Someone recasted his helmet which probably costed that person about $50 and they started selling their copies.
    How anyone could say CLonesix was just as wrong as the recaster here is beyond me.

    WE are here to get replica props. Last time I checked Lucas isnt offering anything that looks like an episode 2 clone helmet. We want a replica clone helmet. How do we get one if we cannot show support for someone who makes one for us? That recaster comes along and copies it and makes money off of his work.. now he is taking money away from the person who brought that helmet to us.

    Same goes for any other prop someone replicates here.

    Heres how it applies to screen used pieces:
    The process of obtaining and making a casting of a screen used piece is extremely time consuming, expensive, and difficult, and again they are bringing us a product that we cannot get in any other way. This is why we support what they do. If someone recasts their work, they are merely making money off of that persons hard work, without doing it themselves, and also taking money away from that person, and taking away motivation from anyone planning to create replica pieces in the future for anyone who wants to collect these props.

    So in short heres the simple rules for ya.

    recasting a screen used piece: GOOD
    Creating a replica of a screen used piece: GOOD
    Recasting a replica piece: BAD
     
  31. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    This topic has been worn out over the last couple of weeks. You can search the forum for other marathon threads on the same subject.

    I typed this up myself just last week in another "recaster" thread. Maybe it'll help you understand things a little better...

     
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