HELP: REAL or FAKE MPP???

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by OdiWan72, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hi all

    I need some help from those of you, who own / have owned a REAL MPP.
    I recently bought a "real" MPP through ebay. It was supposed to be C-10.

    Well, it isn´t so I´m struggling with the seller right now.
    During investigating my MPP, I started to worry about it´s being real or fake.

    Please...I need DETAILED pics of the attached/ de-attached bulb-release, the inside, the clamp etc. asap.

    MANY THANKS for your help guys.

    Markus
     
  2. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    Well Markus that shouldnt be too hard....the real MPP will turn on and a bright red beam should emit from the shroud. It should cut through many materials. If it doesnt, I wouldnt but it. :D


    Good luck btw.
     
  3. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    See???....I wrote you it´s not C-10.
    No beam, no cigar :p

    Anyone?

    Markus
     
  4. DaddyfromNaboo

    DaddyfromNaboo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    You want a real fake MPP for comparison ? Can provide that :D

    Btw, you DO have a real one, don´t you ?.

    Micha
     
  5. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Do you have any pics of the MPP?
    I would really need to see pics to tell. There are so many variants of MPPs it would be hard to pin point it's authenticity by verbal description.

    One way to tell is by unscrewing the endcap and smelling the inside. No matter how good the condition it will still smell like it's 40-50 years old.

    Look in the crevaces for dust or grime.



    DS
     
  6. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well...there are several issues with the -supposely- real MPP I have :unsure
    That´s why I wanted to have some pics of a real one first.

    Anyway...what specific parts/areas should I take a close-up pic of?

    Markus
     
  7. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    I would need pics of the one you have to tell.
     
  8. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Here you go...

    What worries me is the fact, that the seller told me the MPP to be C-10.
    Well, it obviously isn´t, but beside of that, it was clean and greasefree when he sent me pics of it and now it smells like he boiled coffee in it and tried to clean it up with WD40 :confused

    I haven´t shown you the heavy scratching and the dents of this C-10, but that´s not what this thread is about...

    BTW: Did YH ever produce aluminium MPP shrouds?
    The seller told me he´d have the real, undrilled one still at home but to me his looks like a plastic YH to me (not the one I posted a pic of.).

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    Thanks WC....

    Markus
     
  9. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    That is in REALLY beat up shape. It could be worked with but it is no where near Better or Best condition.

    (Honestly I dont know what "c-10" stands for. But my two MPPs are in almost mint condition.)
     
  10. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I know, that´s why I´m struggling with the seller right now.

    But what about the origin of the flash. IS IT a REAL one?

    Markus
     
  11. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    There are better "experts" here than I, but I would say yes it is judging by the first and secound pics. Also, the damage to it would be consistant with its use as a flash.
     
  12. Sidewinder

    Sidewinder Sr Member

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    I would say it is real, but can in no way be described as C10 - which should mean like brand new. More like an 8.

    SAS
     
  13. Crimsonnaire

    Crimsonnaire Well-Known Member

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    I would gamble that it's real, but only judging from the extensive weathering, although I hesistate to say that it's impossible to weather a Parks MPP to look like that.

    Your only solution is to find distinguishing details that are only present on Parks' MPP's, and verify them with yours. Only trouble is finding them.

    You said that the original pictures showed no weathering. Perhaps the seller used substitutional pictures (of a Parks MPP), and later took pictures of the actual item.
     
  14. Darth Lars

    Darth Lars Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the letters by the ports different on Parks?
    I wouldn't say it is impossible to weather a flash like that. I think some acid and/or running a high current through it could do weird things with the plating.
    At least we know the sidebars are not Parks, because his are black powdercoated and straight.
     
  15. Reel Fakes

    Reel Fakes Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That's real. Do doubt in my mind. Nice piece.
    Congrats :)
     
  16. Crimsonnaire

    Crimsonnaire Well-Known Member

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    He, evidently, offers silver slidebars as well...

    OdiWan72, is there wear on the inner surface of the clamp sleeve? Also, are there only nicks on the shroud, or are there intermediate weathering on the black, stone-finish surface as well? Are there any sections that are scratch-free, brand new--hence, standing out from the overall weathering? Can you detect any battery corrosion around or above the spring?
     
  17. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I´ll have to check this.

    Aren´t there other slight differences?
    What about the bulb-release, the shroud etc.?

    Is the shroud correct?
    What about the threading within the hole in the endcap?
    Did Parks or Larry´s MPP have this?

    Markus
     
  18. Crimsonnaire

    Crimsonnaire Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid I've never gotten a good look at the Parks MPP. If only I could see detailed pictures of his replicas, I will be able to identify discrepancies that are coined on his MPP's, and determine whether yours is, definitely, a Parks.

    Does anyone have pictures of Parks' MPP?

    The shroud is accurate to the Vader ANH and ESB. As for the endcap hole, I've seen threading on just about every MPP I've seen. If I'm not mistaken, it's a requirement for insalling the battery spring, just that there are probably many different styles of threading.

    [image]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Imperious825/myfirstMPP5.jpg[/image]
    As you can see, my endcap hole is a variation of yours, and I believe, the common type.

    Your MPP appears very close to the one that was referenced for the HK MPP's--the detail namely of which is the tapering of the slidebars. However, Larry's may not have threading on the endcap, since his flashes were never meant to be used as an actual camera flash.

    [image]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Imperious825/MPPM39.jpg[/image]
    This is another one that's similar to the HK MPP.
     
  19. DaddyfromNaboo

    DaddyfromNaboo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    BTW,
    AFAICR, the replica MPPs I got from Jack Bauer had the black plastic flash knob sitting in the black housing more flush, i.e. it wasn´t that much protruding. Another difference to a replica.

    Michael
     
  20. Prometheus

    Prometheus Well-Known Member

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    Check to see if there are any numbers on the tube.
    There should be a string of numbers and alpahbets on the main body and a digit number towards the end of the tube where the shroud will cover up when put in place.
     
  21. dr_slurpee

    dr_slurpee Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The button on my Parks replica actually sticks out much further than that. I have to say that the spacer under the clamp seems to be a Parks replica, my real MPP spacer does not have square edges but the Parks does...unless that varied on the real ones too.
     
  22. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Great...now I´m even more confused :cry

    Anyone out there who can provide pics of a PARKS MPP?

    Please....Markus
     
  23. yodakiller1138

    yodakiller1138 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Markus,

    From what I could see in the pics your MPP appears to be real. Beat up like hell, but real. Hope you did not pay too much.
     
  24. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is damnit, Id give my neighbors left nut for one of those, beat up or not. Id refurbish it. :unsure
     
  25. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    o.k....here´s the actual status:

    This m********ing SOB screwed me and sold me a weathered Parks :angry

    The weathering was done with silver spraypaint on the tube, hence the "spotted" chrome finish you see in the pics I posted and the "grease" inside the battery tube was done with black spraypaint, washed down with WD40 or something.

    Boy, I´m *....

    I really hope it not to be true but even the sprue-marks on the plastik parts are 100% identical to Parks as well as the the machine marks. Pretty unusual, even for a great replika, right.?

    Pics will follow.

    Markus
     
  26. Crimsonnaire

    Crimsonnaire Well-Known Member

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    You should presue the seller through legals means by any way possible.

    If you purchased it from eBay, there might be a buyer's protection program that will assist in this matter, especially if you paid with PayPal.

    I fear this is the first of many scams, and we need to study the Parks MPP as much as possible to spot future scams.
     
  27. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I´ll do for sure.

    Bought off ebay, but paid via wire-transfer since the seller is from europe as well :unsure

    I´ll post pics and let you guys be the judge.

    Later, Markus
     
  28. laszlo

    laszlo Sr Member

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    I have bought about 10 MPP's during the last 7 years and despite the variations in them you can always tell a real flash by the shroud.

    All replica aluminium shrouds made have had a wall thickness that is too thick - MR, Parks, Larbel's and even the shrouds I made 4/5 years ago.

    A real MPP has a very thin wall at the tip of the shroud. The second most difficult thing to copy is the smell of the battery chamber - the unforgettable scent of vintage cameras.

    Another thing is that a true vintage flash will generally have a clamp where the plastic sleeve can easily become unstuck, due to the old glue drying out. The glue underneath is usually spread hap-hazzardly and will have become yellow with age.

    laters
    Laz
     
  29. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    Aren't the letters on a Parks MPP engraved and not stamped like a real one?
    HK's are stamped. I know I've seen Parks grenades where the lettering is engraved on the windvane which is very noticable compared to the stamped real one.
     
  30. Crimsonnaire

    Crimsonnaire Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean the collar section being too thick? Or the angled section?
     
  31. Darth Lars

    Darth Lars Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Are there any real MPPs where the "emitter coil" is curved like on that Parks?
    In all pics of a real MPP "emitter" (that I have saved on my computer for reference) the coil has a fairly straight corner. The nut also shows machine marks in some and the coil has started to rust.
    I think MR has angled coils.
     
  32. laszlo

    laszlo Sr Member

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    [/quote]
    Do you mean the collar section being too thick? Or the angled section?
    [snapback]1087788[/snapback]​


    Yes the angled tip wall.
     
  33. THX1138

    THX1138 Well-Known Member

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    The small rivots holding the MPP tin plate on looked odd to me in the pictures.

    Original rivots (on the 3 original MPP's I've had) all were a rounded (button) head and were steel.

    Looks like the seller also added a nice small dent in the bottom cap to top off his job. :angry

    - Jim :fettrotj
     
  34. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Here we go...

    As you can see, beside of the shroud all parts are totall identical IMO, down to machine marks, the identical sprue-end on the plastic sleeve etc...

    What do you think?

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    THANK YOU WACKYCHIMP....

    Markus
     
  35. THX1138

    THX1138 Well-Known Member

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    In this picture:

    [​IMG]


    the tiny lever pin should not stick out of the lever.... at least on all the ones I've had they don't.

    Looks like a Parks replica to me. :angry


    This might sound stupid, but do they smell the same?

    If you have a vintage Graflex or even a Heiland flash, they should smell old.

    I think that's been mentioned in this topic, but there should be a difference.

    - Jim :fettrotj
     
  36. bobasfett

    bobasfett Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure about the Parks replica, but another obvious difference I've seen between a real MPP and a replica is the finish of the shroud. A real MPP shroud has a distinctive crinkle finish that is hard to reproduce. I know the MR and HK MPPs don't have it. Again, not sure about the Parks and its hard to tell based on your pic comparing them. Sorry if you bought a Parks.
     
  37. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    The MPP that Parks used as reference for his replica had a distinct feature that is a bit rarer than most other MPPs.
    The black encap plug on the MPP that he used for reference didnt have the 3 rings commonly found on MPPs.....And it seems that your MPP is missing the 3 rings as well.
    Parks saber also had the less common large B porthole....Which yours has .
    And Parks also hasthe sloped silver sidebars , which yours also has.

    This doesnt mean that yours is a Parks, it could be that you aquired one of the other variants. But then again you have to ask yourself what are the odds of getting an MPP with all the exact viariant parts as a Parks.



    The best way to check if it's real -

    Is take a Q-tip and stick it into the plug holes and see if any dust or grime is found in there. (Dirt and grime look very different than just spray paint) Check the tiniest of cravaces.

    Smell the battery casing of the MPP, it should smell old (not like chemicals or spray paint)

    Take the guts out and anscrew the guts themselves and see if theres dust and grime in there.

    Take the clamp off and remove the inner sleeve (as someone mentioned earlier) and check to see if there's dried glue or dust in there.

    I also noticed, in one of the pics of your lever, there is a circular stamp mark visible on the inside.....An MPP should not have this mark.

    Theres also another thing, Im not sure if Parks shrouds have this features or not but, original MPPs had a thick tip on their shroud thumbscrews making impossible to unscrew completely from the shroud (I guess this was down to prevent the thumbscrews from falling off or getting lost)

    I also find it very hard to believe that a 40+ year old MPP got enough wear to strip the paint off of the threading on the endcap plug but yet doesnt have the common arched swing scratch from the lever found on clamp.

    I dont own a Parks MPP myself (which makes the comparison harder) but from looking at the pics you posted it seems that you MPP is actually a Parks replica with a superficial weathering job.
    It seems the areas which are weathered on your saber just happen to be the areas where someone would most likely look. Real weathering gets into all cracks and and cravaces, not just in areas where one will most likely look.



    DS
     
  38. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thanks guys.

    Markus :unsure
     
  39. laszlo

    laszlo Sr Member

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    The shroud on the right looks like one of my old ones I made.

    Laszlo
     
  40. JoMamma_Smurf

    JoMamma_Smurf Master Member

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    I'm really sorry....but deep down I think its a parks. I can vouch for the smell.......I owned a MINT in box Graflex before and that bad boy smelt just as "old" as a another I had that was pretty beat up....
     
  41. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Hey Laslo...weren´t your shrouds cast metal?

    Markus
     
  42. THX1138

    THX1138 Well-Known Member

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    Laszlo's replica shrouds were cast aluminum.

    I had two of them and they looked really good.

    - Jim :fettrotj
     
  43. Crimsonnaire

    Crimsonnaire Well-Known Member

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    OdiWan. Did you manage to obtain a refund or some other kind of reparation?
     
  44. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Just as an update...

    I finally went to the police and filed against this butthead :unsure
    I tried to contact the guy over and over again, but he simply refused to answer my calls or my mails :angry

    Many thanks for all those, who contributed needful informations and help. You guys are da bomb :):thumbsup

    Markus
     
  45. OdiWan72

    OdiWan72 Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Just an update reg. this issue.

    After an unsuccessful attempt to file against this a***hole (police told me that my case wouldn´t have any chances of being successful because of the seller being abroad PLUS the amount in dispute would be too low. WTF???? 320 Euro is not enough of value????) I finally instucted my lawyer to proceed.

    He already sent him a letter...let´s see what happens.

    Markus
     

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