Ghostbusters 2 Life size Vigo painting

[AJ Quick]

AJ, you keep saying something about the original Vigo painter being allowed or not allowed to be upset. No one controls another's emotions. We can't start or stop the original artists irritation nor are we trying to do so.

Art, I am simply talking in the vernacular of this thread. The artist expressed his disapproval. He does not support the reproductions. He said that there were dozens of artists working for him on the project. No single person has a right to grant approval to sell copies of the photo except for the copyright holder. Rhett's claim is that he is 100% able to offer them because they are "at cost" and he has the approval an an artist that worked on the painting.

Why is that ignored? Its like producing a counterfeit COA.

Everyone knows how this hobby works. If the original artists does have rights and if he is so egregiously offended at what has transpired, there are avenues available to him for resolution. If he chooses not to seek those avenues, and only chooses to express his displeasure... I don't see where that should dictate action on anyone's part.

He in fact did go to his lawyer for counsel. The result of that is unknown to me as I was not the one creating a legal "threat" (unlike Tripoli believes).

What we are not going to get into or debate is whether or not he has a legal leg to stand on. I am sure you will say that he does

Please do not put words into my mouth. It would help to prevent the debate if you didn't try to create one. As would have the following paragraph in your post. I do not know why you choose to debate me and only me as there are several other people posting information here. I was the only one to choose to stick up for Superman and his run, how do I have such horrible character because of this?

What you are suggesting is that we bend and comply to the whim of every Joe Blow who comes by with a claim of "that is illegal" or "I own the rights to that" or "you must take that down because I said so."

This is one thing I will come to agree/disagree with you. Of course you don't do whatever any "Joe Blow" says. However if that person is the credited and known creator of something? I think I would handle that differently.

I just ask the professionals. If we did as you suggested and buckled to every whim that is backed with the CLAIM of legal standing, this site wouldn't still exist.

This is not a legal battle now. This is a moral battle. Because everything people do on this site is not legal. Recasting is another level in an already illegal pool. Its up to you to decide based on morals and not legal doctrine at this point. I am fairly certain you have already made your decision on that however given the posts directed at me. I was not the one who recasted these items.

We did shut down the thread after you contacted us saying you had contacted the original artist and the the was taking action to have the sale ended. You requested that the thread be shut down immediately.

And he explored the avenue with his lawyer. Not me. My request was an opinion. Not a legal threat. I'm sure I used the word "should" at some point. Any mention of a legal implication was merely passing the information along and not a threat.

Going to a studio or having legal action brought against a member of the board by a studio is against the COC and is a bannable offense. It would depend if you are targeting an individual or bringing attention to the board here.

Not a studio. The indivdual was a recaster and was making a product in the grey area of digital recasting. More text that has been posted above shows that all he did was take the file done by others here and had it printed. Usage of the word "at cost" seems to make it ok.

Having made the threat and us taking down the thread on the short term, I would have liked to hear back from you on it officially being taken action of as you had noted it was in the process of, or other actions by you. You went silent after that pm and we ended up allowing the sale to go on because of such.

As I have had to mention numerous times in this thread. I was not the one taking legal action. I was merely explaining what was going on. The Private Message that you talk about was written as a summary and was not personally directed at me. In fact I read it and had assumed it was for another moderator and was sent to me by mistake. We exchanged several PMs after that message. You did in fact hear from me again.

 

[tripoli]

To clarify Aj, I do know you were not the one making the threat, but it was from my perspective you were either conveying such threat from the artist and or looked to have him pursue Rhett on the issue by contacting the original artist. Your contact to the RPF was the impetus for the thread to be closed on that basis and it was done so because of the legal seriousness of your pm. I did not hear back, or further action would have been taken and I was disappointed at the time that you did not, the reason from my perspective you were more likely pursuing Rhett in this manner as harassment instead of having a solid reason behind such. I expected either way to know what was happening with the Vigo rights issue but never did hear back from you on it.

 

[Boomerjinks]

How long is the probationary period for recasters?

I mean, if someone is a recaster, how long before they are no longer a recaster?

 

[Art Andrews]

AJ, first, I am not engaging you in an effort to single you out, but you have clearly stepped into the role of the individual spearheading what appears to be an effort to oust HotShot from this community and it would seem, given what triopli has posted that this isn't the first time you have made this effort.

Does that make you the bad guy? Absolutely not. As I have posted elsewhere, the staff is not omnipresent nor are we omniscient. We greatly depend on the members of this site to help us out the bad apples. The real question here is whether HotShot is a danger/threat or destabilizing force to this community or not, which is loosely how I would define an RPF "bad apple."

The artist expressed his disapproval. He does not support the reproductions. He said that there were dozens of artists working for him on the project. No single person has a right to grant approval to sell copies of the photo except for the copyright holder. Rhett's claim is that he is 100% able to offer them because they are "at cost" and he has the approval an an artist that worked on the painting.

Why is that ignored? Its like producing a counterfeit COA.

So, am I correct in understanding that 1) no one person painted Vigo, but it was a collaborative effort with one individual heading up the project and 2) your issue is not so much with the fact that the project leader (who may or may not be the legitimate copyright holder), disapproves, but that Rhett is claiming he has approval from a member of the collaborative effort which you feel implies his replicas have some type of COA (I guess certificate of approval in this case as opposed to certificate of authenticity)?

He in fact did go to his lawyer for counsel. The result of that is unknown to me as I was not the one creating a legal "threat" (unlike Tripoli believes).

But if you approached the project leader in an effort to undermine Rhett, then indirectly you DID create a legal threat. Did the project leader approach you or did you go to him? The way you have written so far, it sounds as if you went to him in an effort to stop Rhett, which prompted him to seek legal counsel... so again, if you approach him about this matter, you are somewhat responsible for the legal "threat."

Please do not put words into my mouth. I was the only one to choose to stick up for Superman and his run, how do I have such horrible character because of this?

You have my apology if you feel I was putting words in your mouth. My comments were based off assumptions made from your previous posts. If my assumptions are wrong, you are more than welcome to correct me. In regard to Superman's thread, let's not revise history that is barely "history" and lets not be coy. You were not sticking up for Superman. You were attacking Rhett because you have an existing issue with him and because you felt he was being duplicitous.

This is one thing I will come to agree/disagree with you. Of course you don't do whatever any "Joe Blow" says. However if that person is the credited and known creator of something? I think I would handle that differently.

You are right. We are not likely to agree on this. The fact that someone is credited for something or the known creator doesn't necessarily give them carte blanche. I can't make a broad and generalized statement here because every situation will be different, but for us, someone needs to prove they have a legitimate claim to something before we will act on their behalf.

Its up to you to decide based on morals and not legal doctrine at this point. I am fairly certain you have already made your decision on that however given the posts directed at me.

Not at all. We haven't made a decision. I think you only feel this way because we aren't taking what you have said as a slam dunk and banning Rhett immediately. That doesn't mean we are dismissing what you have to say. Instead, we are looking at both sides of the issue.

 

[Alan Castillo]

Please excuse my ignorance, but, in simple terms, on exactly what basis is hotshot's blood being called for ?

The original artist's displeasure ? - imo, that is not a valid basis. The artist himself said no one person can claim to have created Vigo.

On the basis that a flickr image was used without the person's consent ? - unless shown otherwise, hotshot said he has the person's permission. Even here, I personally cannot see eye to eye on this one. Laws are different here. Anything posted on the net becomes public domain, unless it is officially registered at a patent office. If you don't want it used, don't post it. Anyone can take a picture of me I have on the net, photoshop my head on a monkey's body, & I can do jack all about it. But that's me, I'd just crack up laughing.

That he may have made money on the run ? - Again, imo, not a valid basis at all. If he did make money, good luck to him. This is not a Mother Theresa board.

That others who helped him enhance the Vigo image were hoodwinkled ? - From what I have read, I understand that hotshot compensated them. Again, not a good reason.

That he stepped on a trademark toe ? - Anyone who owns only offically licenced props and has never bought a 'bootlegged' prop replica from an rpf member, raise your hands. Enough said.

So I please ask again, in simple terms, on exactly what basis is hotshot's blood being called for ?

Lets please keep in mind that this thread is about the Vigo painting, not about shoddy quality proton pack kits or similar.

 

[ThrowingChicken]

I think it has less to do with artist disapproval and more to do with Rhett once again trying to elevate his wares to something they are not. With the pack stuff he advertised cleaned pieces, but delivered shotty work sculpted out of peanut brittle. With the Vigo prints he advertised them as being "original artist approved!" which turns out to be false. It's a continued pattern of misrepresentation.

Now, perhaps it would have been courteous of Hotshot to not do the run upon disapproval, but I don't personally believe he was obligated to stop.

Regardless, I think it is pretty clear that a decision concerning the prints has been made, so perhaps this is a good time to steer the conversation away from the Vigos and focus on what should have been a clear cut case to ban this member a year ago when this recasting evidence was first brought up. As I understand it, Tripoli could not give his full attention to this issue at that time and so be it; I am not going to fault you for that, but I am positive that those who got burned by Rhett rejoice in the fact that the grey of the Vigo issue is forcing a closer look at the black of the other issues. I am also pretty sure that Rhett wishes he had left well enough alone when he rudely interrupted Superman's interest thread.

 

[Utinni]

Hotshot has PM'ed me about my claim on him possibly recasting some of my gun parts, the first PM from him came off a little snarky and defensive, and I told him which parts I wanted to see masters of, but did not name which part in the group that caught my attention. He said he'll get back to me. Did the Mods request him not to post in this thread? Cause he is reading it.

- Jeff

 

[EvilRocketeer]

^the best thing he could do is not respond in this thread and let the mods handle it and sort everything out.......it will only lead to arguing etc etc....

Hopefully, some-one will come through and give you the proof you need to show that he did or didnt recast your gun parts

 

[Alan Castillo]

so perhaps this is a good time to steer the conversation away from the Vigos and focus on what should have been a clear cut case to ban this member a year ago when this recasting evidence was first brought up.

I totally agree. I only joined this topic because i could not for the life of me see anything 'wrong' with the run of Vigo prints. (big inverted commas again, the grey areas etc etc etc). I've said what I felt I had to say about Vigo, so I'll just limit myself to following the thread from here on.

 

[Utinni]

Well, his one line response was... interesting to say the least. It can be taken a couple different ways I guess:

"Don't think I ever used one of your parts, but I'm game if you are."

Could mean he didn't recast any of MY parts, but maybe some one else. He didn't say, no I made all my own masters. So then are all his gun parts recast?

- Jeff

 

[EvilRocketeer]

or maybe he meant he didnt use your gun parts as reference.....

it can be definitely be taken in a few different ways...

does any-one still own his first run of gun parts? where these sold through rpf? gbfans? ebay?

 

[lingarn]

*edited out*

Eh, nevermind. Not a useful/necessary addition to the conversation.

 

[tripoli]

"Tripoli could not give his full attention to this issue at that time"

No, I gave it my full attention, I believe that not just in the way some would like to, and again, it is impossible to expect the mods to be able to police the entire internet all the time and to expect action based on such. I was very cautious to make such a serious move as to ban someone when I felt I did not have all the facts to make such a judgment. More over given what I saw with the legal issue that suddenly dried up without further contact , I saw such a push against Rhett as more of a vendetta from another board and did not pursue it further as such.

 

[Art Andrews]

Did the Mods request him not to post in this thread? Cause he is reading it.

- Jeff

Actually, Rhett sent me a lengthy rebuttal to a lot of the claims being made against him and I suggested that he post it publicly in this thread. He is reluctant to do so (probably out of fear of the dogpiling onslaught that is sure to ensue) but I think it would help a lot if he would.

 

[Crix]

Actually, Rhett sent me a lengthy rebuttal to a lot of the claims being made against him and I suggested that he post it publicly in this thread. He is reluctant to do so (probably out of fear of the dogpiling onslaught that is sure to ensue) but I think it would help a lot if he would.

I'd be worried about posting a 'rebuttal' publicly too, were I in his position. It's hard to keep people on your side when people you've burned directly start coming forward.

The sooner Rhett speaks up for himself in this thread, the sooner I think this issue will be put to rest, one way or another.

 

[phantom50]

does any-one still own his first run of gun parts? where these sold through rpf? gbfans? ebay?

This is not the way I ever intended to join the RPF, but so be it.

My name is Brock an I have been a member of the Ghostbusters communities since 2002. I have been exclusive, mostly, to that field of prop building as I always wanted to build a Proton Pack and the other devices as seen in the film. I have made parts over the last eight years as I have the ability to do so with the machines I own, or to which I have access.

Although the people of the GB communities know me rather well, I understand that a new member posting for the first time might not carry much weight to those of you whom I am not familiar. So I'll stick to the facts on hand that are related to this topic of discussion. Also, it is not my intention to join this group of builders and do a hit-and-run style of justice. I have tried in the past to join the RPF, only to find registration closed (and life getting in the way of hobbies.) So what I have to say has either been said by others here prior or somewhat conveyed in the past on my behalf.

First is the topic of this Vigo painting. I have no basis to be involved with this argument other than to convey my interests in character reference as it relates to Hotshot (Rhett.) I am not the artist (as I would have added a little kitty) nor do I have any argument for or against it. All I have to say regarding this matter is that it would be nice to see it offered for the communities, but in the correct manner. And I think that is what this whole matter revolves around. Did Hotshot jump through all the hoops correctly in order to offer this item for sale? I know he didn't paint the item, so proof will need to be determined (and should be offered freely to quell any misconceptions.)

And this is where my onus comes to pass as I have had more than enough history with Hotshot; mostly him recasting my items. I've taken the time to upload my Ghostbusters items that I have made over the years in my photo albums (found here), so please take the time to look through them. However, when it comes to the crux of the matter, here are the original photos of my work and the recasted items that resulted in Hotshot being banned from the Ghostbusters communities.

This is a close-up of my Trap Knob Disc. The part itself lies behind the Tear Drop Knob found on the Ghost Trap. I machined this item from aluminum by hand on my lathe, to the specs made available by Stephan. Notice the wavy pattern on the face of the disc (it is tapered at about 20-degrees.) That is a result of "chatter" due to my crap cutting bit used to machine these items at the time.

And here are the resin casts that Hotshot sold to a member in Great Britain:

Notice the same wavy pattern found on that disc, which is part of his builds that he was selling at the time. The thing is, that member in Great Britain was/is a good friend of mine and had ordered this set of my Trap Knobs in the past:

I wasn't taking orders at the time (around April of 2006) as I didn't have the supplies of resin and, quite frankly, didn't have the physical time to fulfill the order(s). So he ordered the parts that Hotshot was offering only to find out that the resin was not cured fully (and it never did--wrong mix ratio) and the parts looked too close to mine. The other truth was I was the only member to offer Trap Knobs at the time (before Hotshot came on the scene) and I was the ONLY member (still to this day) to offer the accurate GB2 style Silver Trap Knob. As seen here in my mold box:

The exact same knob can be viewed in the above photo of Hotshot's resin offerings. After Hotshot purchased a set of Trap Knobs from me, within a month he started offering his Trap Kits to the community. An investigation was sprung by the community at the time and Hotshot was put on probation due to probability that he was recasting items (definitely mine and possibly other member's work.) He claimed he didn't know and would stop, and would throw away all items he had. However, masters of his work never surfaced and the period of probation passed as he didn't sell and was "good" in the eyes of the owner of that site (Proptopia.)

I PMed Hotshot a few times but never received photos of his builds or building process, let alone his masters for molding. Anything I ever received was a thumbnail version of a photo that never showed detail--and only of cast items that were "ready to go."

Not long after this incident, another member starting offering AN/PVS-5B night vision frames that were Israeli. The actual metal parts were hard to find and someone mentioned for me to make copies of those, then mold the parts. I did and I offered them to the community.

Hotshot bought one of my Ecto Goggle Side Knobs Kit, and within a week was offering his own Etco Goggle Kits complete with said knobs. This was the nail in the coffin for Hotshot as the evidence could not be any clearer. (Sorry, but I don't have the photos of his Ecto Goggle builds as he was banned shortly afterward, thus resolving the issue at the time. Others members can chime-in if they want, and I do have the PMs regarding this very issue, but the photos he posted revealed direct recasting of my fabricated part.)

At the same time, he was sending out orders of his Ghostbusters kits (Trap, Ecto Goggle and Proton Pack) in massive quantities to anyone that would send money. To be honest, the pictures of the builds Hotshot made looked decent, but the items that people received no where matched the items in the photos. He claimed shipping problems, shipping damage, too many orders which MADE him send out "uncured" resin and general counter-accusations that the buyer was lying. And he wouldn't refund the money in almost all the cases of dissatisfied customers.

These actions caused great alarm in the Ghostbusters communities, which resulted in his immediate expulsion and a sweeping modification to selling/buying rules and regulations. It caused great concern as many people who were wronged wanted retribution.

In conclusion, Rhett has repeatedly shown a dishonest nature when it comes to items from which he can maximize his profit margins. He has been shown to lie, cheat and steal when it suits his own merits. Mostly while making a profit. In our own microcosm of the propping communities he carved out a tarnished named for himself, even when multiple members (and moderators/owners) gave him more than enough chances to correct course.

As for character and the issue of recasting, I hope I have shed more light on those issues related to this debacle. As for the Vigo painting, all I can say is that I don't know much about the behind-the-scenes dealings that Hotshot had regarding it. But I do know that if the people I trust, and have trusted for many years now, say differently as to Hotshot's actions in this matter I would believe them.

And to the mods here, please take the time to find the truth in this matter. After reading the threads posted and the actions related to the Vigo painting sale, Hotshot's actions at minimum warrant a further review. I know you guys can never please everyone, but truth can always be dug up. And it is the truth that will always set the basis for understanding in these matters.

Thanks for listening and keep up the good work here at the RPF. You guys have a large amount of talented people here. Hopefully I can contribute some day. (And if more info/pics are required in this matter, please PM me.)

Brock
phantom50

 

[Alan Castillo]

First of all, welcome to the RPF Brock

I am sure you will find our mods here to be fair, concientious, and do not take any decision lighty before weighing up everything and putting the facts in their correct perspectives and contexts.

As a slight ice-breaker to the circumstances surrounding your joining, may I be the first to (openly) express my admiration and congratulations on your choice of avatar and profile pic.

 

[tk1055]

Welcome to the RPF. This topic has been very convoluted and I would like to thank you for casting a bit more light on the subject.

 

[Kingpin]

Like Brock, had I wanted a particular reason to join the RPF, these circumstances are far from desirable, however I wished to add a bit of content to his post.

I'm a member of Proptopia, and was at the time Rhett was selling his Trap Kit (and later during his removal), little detective work is needed to discover I'm the same Kingpin who was covering the Vigo portrait angle over on Ghostbusters.net.

Before his banning, a friend of mine purchased one of Rhett's Ghost Trap kits (it appears to be a different itteration, with the teardrop knob now molded as part of that particular side plate), and eventually posted a collection of photos displaying the condition they were in when they arrived. In the intent of strengthening Brock's post, here are the photos that were posted of the kit:

I can go into more detail as to other issues related to the above kit, although the photos do speak more than I can. Obviously the last item isn't a part of the Trap Kit, but was another Hotshot-produced item that was purchased by the same buyer.

 

[Art Andrews]

Brock,

Thanks for joining up and posting. I am not going to make much effort to defend Rhett if he is unwilling to come here and defend himself, but I will say that in his initial email to me about the recasting accusations, he was very open about having recast your knob(s). Similar to what you have stated, Rhett claims he didn't know it was a no-no to recast found parts (even though technically the one piece was machined by you) and when he was confronted about it, he changed his parts and has not been using your recast parts since.

He is outright refuting the other recasting claims and I would like to remind you guys of our stance on recasting accusations:

If anyone believes their item has been recast by a member, they are encouraged to provide proof to the RPF Staff, with the understanding that the burden of proof lies solely with the accuser and that members will be considered innocent unless clearly proven otherwise by the aggrieved party.

With that being said, at this point it would seem that the recasting of phatom50's knob(s) was a firsttimer mistake. If you feel that is not the case, then lets hear it, but from what I have seen we have an open and shut case on the knobs (yes, Rhett recast them and according to him, he stopped providing them when called out on it) and we have seen other accusations but no proof in regard to additional recasting claims. I get the feeling that the Ghostbusters community feels that if enough people pressure us, we are going to do something, but what we need are clear posts (like Brock's) showing the concerns you have.