Gary Kurtz on George Lucas

[Jet Beetle]

I do remember being bored when I saw Return of the Jedi for the first time. I think because the movie held no surprises like Empire and A New Hope.

And speaking of the "New hope" title crawl - This was touched on in "Skywalking", I just can't remember exactly what was written (or if the book is accurate). But wasn't it included then removed then put back - or was it that George wanted it, the studio said "no", but after the success of the movie allowed him to put it in?

 

[Rhett J Martin]

It's that very last scene that gets to me.
Everyone posing in what looks like a family group shot, with Lando clapping along to the music - it's just too posed, too far removed from a final 'film' shot, and more of a group hug at the end of a sports match.

I love that scene . . .I had no idea how much more impact it would have after watching the prequels with it. Gives me shivers when Vader is vunerable for that one brief moment. If only Star Wars had more of those simple moments, I think the movies would be a bit easier to laud over.

Hell even Start Trek FIVE has some killer scenes . . .but I digress

I did like the article, seems to me more and more people are ttrying to tell us two things at the same time; "Lucas was a visonary, but don't buy all the bull."

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

I appreciate the more realistic/grounded character treatment in Empire, though. I find it made the characters -- even as fairytale figures -- a bit more approachable, and made the universe itself feel far more "real." .

I do appreciate it too. It couldn't really have been done any better; the necessary new direction was executed perfectly. It was always going to be utterly impossible to carry all of the charms of SW over into the sequel, since the characters had moved on from their start positions, but it's that initial configuration from the first film I find most magical.

 

[Solo4114]

I love that scene . . .I had no idea how much more impact it would have after watching the prequels with it. Gives me shivers when Vader is vunerable for that one brief moment. If only Star Wars had more of those simple moments, I think the movies would be a bit easier to laud over.

Hell even Start Trek FIVE has some killer scenes . . .but I digress

I did like the article, seems to me more and more people are ttrying to tell us two things at the same time; "Lucas was a visonary, but don't buy all the bull."

Well, that's the thing. I think Lucas himself cultivated the myth that he was this absolute genius storyteller who had a clear vision and who executed it nearly flawlessly, when the truth is more that he's a good idea man and "big picture" guy who was surrounded by a very talented crew of people -- but one who is also equally capable of really DUMB ideas. I mean, as are we all, of course, but most of us don't go around claiming (or allowing others to claim) that we're brilliant.

I think for a long time there was also NO voice of dissent for whatever reason which only allowed the legend to grow.


And then came the Prequels.



Suddenly people were sitting around saying "WTF?! How is it that the guy who made THOSE movies could make THESE movies?!" I mean, even if you enjoy the prequels, you can't deny that they're notably different in ways beyond mere visual enhancement from the originals. That led to questions about whether Lucas had "lost it" or, for that matter, whether he'd "had it" way back when.

Turns out it's a bit of both.


I dunno. I used to be a lot more pissed about this stuff than I am now. I don't hate Lucas personally, I don't think he "raped my childhood," and I don't fault the guy for being human and fallible. I also don't buy into the "Cult of Lucas" where he's revered as some sort of creative god, and I think that his later work suffers both for lack of limitations, and because the creative team surrounding him is less of an ensemble, and more of a support network for him alone. As a result, I think the stories he tells nowadays suffer. But that's ok. I just skip 'em if I don't want to see 'em.

 

[SithLord]

Sithlord, that's a stunningly ignorant evaluation of Star Wars. Technical achievements aside, the narrative palette alone used in Star Wars was like nothing before and nothing since in it's eclecticism and diversity of source material.

To think that Star Wars starts and ends with a straight Kurosawa lift is to dismiss one of the most literate movies of all time and to not really know film at all, nor understand why Star Wars was one of the most successful and enduring films ever made.

My point was that there was nothing groundbreaking about the story itself, just the setting/effects and how it was executed. Lucas himself has referred to the story in many different ways like a western in space, etc.

The Hidden Fortress (JAPAN 1958)

 

[cayman shen]

Have any of you read The Secret History of Star Wars?

Amazon.com: The Secret History of Star Wars (9780978465230): Michael Kaminski: Books

It's like a COLLEGE TEXTBOOK on everything we thought we knew... and then some. While it was fascinating, and incredibly well-written and researched, I felt like every page had the same subtext:

Lucas DIDN'T have it all planned out.

Interesting reading if you have the time...

This book was a GREAT read (information-wise). Highly recommended.

I'm not sure I wish Kurtz had won. Jedi was very weak in places, (DS2, twin sister, "hold me!") but when it was strong, it was very, very strong. And I think Luke did remain the outsider. That's why I hate that he got MARRIED in the EU. He should have been the lonely warrior monk.

 

[cayman shen]

Sorry, but Empire can't hold a candle to STAR WARS.

Let's be honest here.

Are you kidding? Empire is so brilliant on so many levels...*****. But I don't want to throw my schlong in this p***ing match, so let me just end by saying I'm so glad Lucas didn't get Apocalypse Now.

 

[micdavis]

ESB doesn't even have an ending. Not a complete film.

Now had "Kersh" had the balls to put a "To Be Continued" card on the screen, maybe I could give it a pass.

For a better list.

http://www.therpf.com/f12/empire-strikes-back-sucks-90342/

 

[cayman shen]

ESB doesn't even have an ending. Not a complete film.

Now had "Kersh" had the balls to put a "To Be Continued" card on the screen, maybe I could give it a pass.

For a better list.

http://www.therpf.com/f12/empire-strikes-back-sucks-90342/

Does a movie have to have a "pat" ending to be a complete film? Bull****. I guess you didn't care for the Road Warrior either?

And yes, saying a sequel is better is problematic because it wouldn't work at all without the context of the original, but artistically, it's better. Better direction, writing, acting, effects...ESB is a better film. And even design is at least on par. Now, it couldn't exist without SW, so it's hard to say it's purely "better" since it expands on "part one," if you will, but in terms of evaluating the individual categories above, yeah, ESB is better.

 

[blipper]

My point was that there was nothing groundbreaking about the story itself, just the setting/effects and how it was executed. Lucas himself has referred to the story in many different ways like a western in space, etc.

The Hidden Fortress (JAPAN 1958)

This gets parroted so much in Star Wars discussion that you can be sure most people parroting it haven't actually seen The Hidden Fortress.
Actually watch The Hidden Fortress and then tell me that Star Wars *is*The Hidden Fortress. I'm sure you'll realise how exaggerated, misplaced and lazy this often quoted comparison is.

While you're at it grab some Fellinni, Leone, John Ford, Kubrick (amongst other notable film makers) - and you'll start to see the rich language Lucas uses in telling Star Wars, of which Kurosawa is only a part.
And that's only the cinematic language Lucas is using. It's missing the point to say that the story of Star Wars wasn't ground-breaking.
It was the telling of the story that was ground breaking, and that wasn't down to special effects alone.

And for what it's worth Star Wars is superior to Empire.
Standalone, perfectly paced, perfect three act structure, best script, perfect, perfect, perfect. The art of storytelling at it's best.

Apart from the Stormtrooper clonking his head. That wasn't perfect. Unless he intended to do it. In which case it was awesome.

 

[CTF]

Kershner touted as the God that made Empire happen followed up with the Blockbusters Never Say Never Again and Robocop 2. Arguably the worst sequels ever.

Ain't that the truth!

****, we just agreed on something!? But I guess it is Friday the 13th, so spooky stuff does go on.

 

[OldKen]

The end of empire is one of my favorite endings in movie history. The music at the end is my favorite part of any movie score.

It was soo sad... yet not. You didn't know what would come next. Yet you did.

Sorry if you guys don't get that.

ANH is my favorite of the 3 and could've deffinately stood alone.

 

[CTF]

ANH is my favorite...

Oh, baby, just you shut your mouth.

(Look at my avatar when you read that.)

 

[micdavis]

ANH is my favorite of the 3 and could've deffinately stood alone.

It DOES stand on it own. But it's called Star Wars. There is no ANH.

 

[cayman shen]

This gets parroted so much in Star Wars discussion that you can be sure most people parroting it haven't actually seen The Hidden Fortress.
Actually watch The Hidden Fortress and then tell me that Star Wars *is*The Hidden Fortress. I'm sure you'll realise how exaggerated, misplaced and lazy this often quoted comparison is.

While you're at it grab some Fellinni, Leone, John Ford, Kubrick (amongst other notable film makers) - and you'll start to see the rich language Lucas uses in telling Star Wars, of which Kurosawa is only a part.
And that's only the cinematic language Lucas is using. It's missing the point to say that the story of Star Wars wasn't ground-breaking.
It was the telling of the story that was ground breaking, and that wasn't down to special effects alone.

And for what it's worth Star Wars is superior to Empire.
Standalone, perfectly paced, perfect three act structure, best script, perfect, perfect, perfect. The art of storytelling at it's best.

Apart from the Stormtrooper clonking his head. That wasn't perfect. Unless he intended to do it. In which case it was awesome.

The Hidden Fortress actually shares a lot with TPM, more than ANH if you ask me. Except Hidden Fortress is really well directed and actually stirs an emotion or two, which TPM doesn't quite pull off...

I'll just have to agree to disagree about SW vs ESB. I'm not trying to take anything from SW. It's perfect. ESB has elements that speak to me personally very powerfully, so in my mind, that tips the favor to ESB. I can see how others disagree though.

 

[jts1031]

So, aside from providing a bit of gossip, what do these articles actually accomplish?

This specific article promotes Celebration 5, and that is its sole purpose.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

I'm with micdavis.

I love Star Wars and I love the Star Wars movies- all 6 of them- because I enjoy them, they entertain me, and I love the characters, props, costumes, and effects.

George Lucas, Gary Kurts, Rick Macallum, Kirshner, whoever......

Take'em all. Who cares. I just love the movies. Who gives a flip about the politics. You can have it. I'll take the movies.

 

[nickytea]

Yep. Same with me. (And I wasn't even around for "The Beginning".)

There's STAR WARS, and then there's the rest of Star Wars. The saga will always be second.

 

[ghostryder]

FROM THE VAULT: An Interview with Gary Kurtz » FRED Entertainment

The wonderful sci-fi geek site i09.com recently linked out to an LA Times interview with producer Gary Kurtz, and i09 believed it to be the first time that Kurtz had spoken in-depth, on the record, about the creation of Star Wars and the issues he had with George Lucas during the making of The Empire Strikes Back that led to a massive falling out between the two creative partners.

Well, not so.

I’d done a massive interview with Kurtz back in 2002, which goes into a lot more detail about the falling out, plus Kurtz’s other work on American Graffiti and with Jim Henson on The Dark Crystal.

Here is that interview…

-Ken Plume

 

[micdavis]

Funny how none of these supposed "unsung heroes" did anything even close to as good as Star Wars after leaving LFL.