Gary Kurtz on George Lucas

[Jet Beetle]

"Kurtz isn’t sure what to expect in Orlando but he says that “Empire” may be the shining moment of his career, "

MAY BE ??? Gee, y'think.

Who knows what really went on - I love a good spill of beans, but parts of this article have the scent of Herb Solow and how he tried to lay claim to Star Trek. There's no way of knowing.

I do know MOST of you here LOVED the prequels when they came out - so don't go writing how bad they are now. You funded those pieces of crap by buying all those Darth Maul toys and Qui Gon Jin underwear.

 

[CTF]

MAY BE ??? Gee, y'think.

Sorry, but Empire can't hold a candle to STAR WARS.

Let's be honest here.

 

[Jet Beetle]

I was comparing Empire to Dark Crystal.

 

[micdavis]

Kershner touted as the God that made Empire happen followed up with the Blockbusters Never Say Never Again and Robocop 2. Arguably the worst sequels ever.

Oooh Boy!

The press being all over C5 like Comic-Con is looking for any story (regardless of the facts) to put out.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I have serious issues with Jedi, but the fact that it has a happy, fairy tale ending is not one of them. I mean, when a story begins with the phrase A Long Time Ago In A Galaxy Far, Far Away, you pretty much know it's not going to end on an edgy, somber, angst-ridden note. Nor should it, IMO.

Maybe you are schooled in Disney fairy tales, but most fairly tales are dark, somber and ends in a horrible morale the main character had to go through. Most times they died.

 

[Howard]

It only said Star Wars. And still is only Star Wars to me.

Well said, Mic. Well said indeed.

The crawl text kinda seals the idea for me that a sequel wasn't expected or intended. You all know it, but this is the important section for me:

Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy….

The plans did save her people, and with the Death Star destroyed freedom was restored to the galaxy.
There's also the conversation with Tarkin and his minions - 'How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?'
'Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battlestation.'

So without the bureaucracy and the battlestation, the local systems are not fearful - they'll rise up and freedom, as said in the opening crawl text, is restored.
End of story, everything nearly tied up.

But of course, Vader escapes the battle of Yavin for a possible return, just in case the movie's a hit.

 

[Solo4114]

Interesting for the quotes, but if the goal of the article is to debunk the myth that it was "all planned out..." Um...does anyone OTHER than Lucas still really believe that?

Actually, not to get all Obi-Wan here, but I do think that "all planned out" COULD be an accurate enough statement...from a certain point of view.

I mean, I will take issue with the "I always intended to [do XYZ]" lines Lucas throws around from time to time, when it's pretty clear that that wasn't his exact intention -- at least based on the films -- but I do think you've got to take into account the various ideas and such that he wrote down, bounced off of people, etc. I mean, who knows. He might've once said to Kurtz "What if we had Luke walk into the sunset all alone, and Leia grappling with the difficulty of running the new Republic?" And they both said "Hmm..." and pondered it for a few minutes, and then went off and had lunch or something. Then Lucas said later to himself "Nah, that's a stupid idea. I'll make her the sister. That's way cooler," and suddenly he "Always intended to make Leia Luke's sister." In essence, BOTH Kurtz and Lucas could be "right" depending on the timing of the statements.

I mean, yes, the categorical "Always intended" statements are broad and -- I think -- what gets Lucas in real trouble. But I can also easily see where the story ideas would've been VERY fluid, especially in the early days and before filming or even writing actually began in earnest on the rest of it. Hell, we have no idea how many drafts there are, nor how many outlines, how many cocktail napkins with notes on 'em, nor how many details there are that George DIDN'T tell anyone that still reside merely in his head about these films.

But I don't think there's anyone out there -- except perhaps George himself and the most ardent and willfully blind of fanboys -- who REALLY believes that Lucas had it All Planned Out in intricate detail.


But that said, aside from the gossip aspects and the what-ifs, I don't think articles or stories like this accomplish a whole lot. I mean, it's not like George is going to personally appear at C5 and break down into tears saying "It's all true! I DIDN'T have it all planned out! All these years I've been lying...I just couldn't live with the SHAME any more! *sob*" So, aside from providing a bit of gossip, what do these articles actually accomplish?

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

I don't know about ROTJ ending on a down note... I don't even think it would've been a good idea to kill Han. Kind of smacks of Dallas-type soap opera attention-getting. I'm not even into this doctrine that the darker and more complicated story in Empire makes it better than SW. The actual point of SW, let's remember, was its simple good cheer - revolutionary at the time - nothing to be ashamed of there. Why should that tone, with which everyone fell in love, suddenly be held inferior to the kind of darker tone it actually set out to challenge in the first place? No, it's OK not to kill Han and it's OK to have an upbeat ending in the third film - though, yeah, just do it without the teddy bear party BS.

Empire is great, but I've never liked the way the fairytale quality of the characters is (necessarily) blunted. Leia is less identifiable as a fairytale princess, her costume (that godawful quilted thing makes her look like an old age pensioner) and hair make her indistinguishable from any other woman-in-space. Han is less clearly a wild west gunslinger and Luke's costume makes him look like just any other space-bloke. Obviously the story dictates these changes, but they are to the detriment of the fairytale quality of the first movie, and I guess it's that aspect of the first movie that I most cherish. I miss the clear visual expression of Luke-as-farm-boy pitched against Han-as-maverick-gunslinger. I honestly think the dynamic between Han, Luke and Leia is more exciting in SW, though I do appreciate that that party was over by the end of Star Wars.

 

[Yellowjacket]

cement poured over it at
"There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth, I raised him. I can't explain what happened."

She was drunk and had a trist with some crazed, double-Y chromosome, ham-fisted, sociopath who's serving time in maximum security at Ord Vaxal or Kessel for killing a whole village of sand people, so she's too embarassed to admit that Anakin had a father and that Anakin might grow up to kill a whole village like his fath...oh wait.

 

[Nwerke]

Well damn. I could have sworn watching this as a child that I remembered thinking..."There were other episodes".:lol

I stand corrected:thumbsup

You might have been thinking of your reaction to seeing Empire? Several times the audiences I saw it with were audibly confused by the episode number.

"Are we at the right movie?!" was my reaction too. :lol

 

[SithLord]

Interesting to read Kurtz's thoughts. Thanks for the link. I think ROTJ should have ended on a darker note, similar to the way the Matrix Trilogy ended, leaving something for the future or to the imagination. That is part of why Star Wars was interesting was that even though there was a happy ending, there was a sinister foreboding that Vader had survived...and would be back.

I can remember reading a lot about Star Wars when it first came out and then leading up to Empire and then when the prequels came out and Lucas was bragging about how he planned everything from the beginning made me wince. He didn't. He made it up as he went along and just took ideas from whomever or whatever source suited his fancy. He comes across as if there was some great design or genius behind his storytelling, but there isn't. He just threw some characters together and modeled it after the Kurosawa story. It is the same criticism people levy at Avatar....that it is just Dances with Wolves set in the future on another planet. Yet people don't apply the same standard of criticism to Star Wars.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both films and Lucas still performed a masterwork by taking elements from previous films and bringing it into a new era of special effects storytelling.

But what made Star Wars great wasn't only the effects, but the characters and that it was also a FUN film. Lucas mistood FUN for comedy in the later films. It isn't about comedy, it is about a sense of adventure...plus we saw the characters meeting each other for the first time and going through the motions of the back and forth that people go through when they are forced into a situation with one another.

 

[Nwerke]

I do know MOST of you here LOVED the prequels when they came out - so don't go writing how bad they are now. You funded those pieces of crap by buying all those Darth Maul toys and Qui Gon Jin underwear.

Don't go casting that rather broad net over me, thanks. It's not my fault if other people weren't paying attention; I lost faith at the SE rereleases.

Actually, I lost faith at Howard the Duck.

 

[Solo4114]

I don't know about ROTJ ending on a down note... I don't even think it would've been a good idea to kill Han. Kind of smacks of Dallas-type soap opera attention-getting. I'm not even into this doctrine that the darker and more complicated story in Empire makes it better than SW. The actual point of SW, let's remember, was its simple good cheer - revolutionary at the time - nothing to be ashamed of there. Why should that tone, with which everyone fell in love, suddenly be held inferior to the kind of darker tone it actually set out to challenge in the first place? No, it's OK not to kill Han and it's OK to have an upbeat ending in the third film - though, yeah, just do it without the teddy bear party BS.

Empire is great, but I've never liked the way the fairytale quality of the characters is (necessarily) blunted. Leia is less identifiable as a fairytale princess, her costume (that godawful quilted thing makes her look like an old age pensioner) and hair make her indistinguishable from any other woman-in-space. Han is less clearly a wild west gunslinger and Luke's costume makes him look like just any other space-bloke. Obviously the story dictates these changes, but they are to the detriment of the fairytale quality of the first movie, and I guess it's that aspect of the first movie that I most cherish. I miss the clear visual expression of Luke-as-farm-boy pitched against Han-as-maverick-gunslinger. I honestly think the dynamic between Han, Luke and Leia is more exciting in SW, though I do appreciate that that party was over by the end of Star Wars.

Minor points here.

First, in general, I agree that the "fairytale in space" element made the overall happy ending fine. Ending on a happy note is a good thing, in my opinion. Jedi's flaws are less in its tone, and more in its execution. The dialogue is awful (and it wasn't that great to begin with) and it's a little too "in-joke" with callbacks to previous films. Some of it is fine, but the ham-fisted nature of much of the "humor" in Jedi really prefaces what would come in TPM. Also, bad as the "Teddy Bear Picnic" element of Jedi was, the Death Star II (Electric Boogaloo!) thing was kind of a weak retread.

I appreciate the more realistic/grounded character treatment in Empire, though. I find it made the characters -- even as fairytale figures -- a bit more approachable, and made the universe itself feel far more "real." I do think that Jedi -- to its credit -- really tries to return to that fairytale quality, it just does so in a very ham-fisted way. I think there's good stuff in Jedi, but you have a lot of chaff in there, too.

 

[Yellowjacket]

There are a few Jedi scenes that still get me.

Luke delivers himself into the hand of the Empire. He is brought to Vader. Luke turns his back on Vader. Vader lights up the lightsaber. That look on Luke's face said it all.

 

[Howard]

It's that very last scene that gets to me.
Everyone posing in what looks like a family group shot, with Lando clapping along to the music - it's just too posed, too far removed from a final 'film' shot, and more of a group hug at the end of a sports match.

 

[CGClone]

When Yoda croaked in ROTJ, so did that rest of the franchise. So for me, SW is mostly 2.5 movies.

I like the clone armor from AOTC, but the prequels, the cartoons & tv show are so-so. No vein to the original other than name. Kurtz did do a great job with Empire, but he is a jaded as Lucas is scrambled in his backtracking.

 

[Clutch]

Too many puppets!

 

[RICHIES ARMOR]

CGClone: No soup for you!!

Ugh wrong thread!!

Richie

 

[Carson Dyle]

Maybe you are schooled in Disney fairy tales, but most fairly tales are dark, somber and ends in a horrible morale the main character had to go through. Most times they died.

Yeah, now that you mention it, I seem to recall the Grimm brothers having penned a downer ending or two.

:cool

Even so, I'd wager to guess that when you hear the phrase "fairy tale ending" you don't automatically assume a climax in which the hero gets boiled in oil, chopped into bits, and fed to ravenous pigs.

George Lucas made no secret of the fact that he wanted Star Wars to be a generally upbeat piece of entertainment. The notion that the PT would have been better served by a downbeat, or emotionally ambiguous, conclusion is wrong headed IMO.

The ending of Jedi needn't be as sappy as it is, but I see nothing wrong with having gone out on an upbeat note.

 

[blipper]

He just threw some characters together and modeled it after the Kurosawa story. It is the same criticism people levy at Avatar....that it is just Dances with Wolves set in the future on another planet. Yet people don't apply the same standard of criticism to Star Wars.

Sithlord, that's a stunningly ignorant evaluation of Star Wars. Technical achievements aside, the narrative palette alone used in Star Wars was like nothing before and nothing since in it's eclecticism and diversity of source material.

To think that Star Wars starts and ends with a straight Kurosawa lift is to dismiss one of the most literate movies of all time and to not really know film at all, nor understand why Star Wars was one of the most successful and enduring films ever made.