Game of Thrones
- Thread starter Husker75
- Start date
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Though I hated a handful of episodes, the ending of "LOST" left me exhausted, in a good way. I knew they couldn't answer everything. I since, am really wary of anything JJ starts however. Anyway, back on topic, I'm trying to enjoy GoT.
Axlotl
Master Member
The first 4 seasons are the best television you'll ever see.
firesprite
Master Member
As much as it probably sounds like I despise this last season, that's not actually the case. While they're failing in large to give us satisfying conclusions, there have been some really lovely moments in season 8 that have made me very happy and made me cry both tears of happiness and grief.
Hammer3246
Sr Member
Just curious about what this means, what's so dangerous about the YouTube comment section? Are you saying the RPF Entertainment forum is the place to be?
Axlotl
Master Member
"You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy".
Toadmeister
Sr Member
This
Analyzer
Master Member
We could have gotten stuff like this. This is the original outline Martin wrote for the books
What can George R.R. Martin’s original outline tell us about the ending of Game of Thrones?
"A LOT changed for Martin in the process of writing. Just to give a couple examples, in the original outline, Sansa bears Joffrey a son, Catelyn is killed by White Walkers, Jaime takes the Iron Throne by killing everyone ahead of him in line, Daenerys kills Khal Drogo as revenge for him killing Viserys, and Arya is part of a love triangle involving Jon and Tyrion. (I hope that last one doesn’t disturb your sleep.) And all of this was supposed to happen in the first book! What’s more, Martin had already completed 13 chapters of A Game of Thrones when he sent in this outline, so assuming he didn’t go back and rewrite things, his outlook shifted drastically not long after this."
• Robb was originally slated to die in battle, not at the Red Wedding. But before he went, he would “maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield,” which would have been fun.
• Near the end of the first book, Catelyn, Arya and Bran would flee Winterfell after it burns and to Castle Black, but Jon and Benjen would be unable to help them on account of the Night’s Watch vows. This would lead to “a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.”
• There’s no mention in the outline of the Baratheon brothers, Cersei Lannister, Melisandre, the Greyjoys, Dorne, and a lot of other things Martin must have added as he went along.
And here you can see the actual letters (the last paragraph being blocked out since it likely contains actual threads of spoilers for the current ending
https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8
What can George R.R. Martin’s original outline tell us about the ending of Game of Thrones?
"A LOT changed for Martin in the process of writing. Just to give a couple examples, in the original outline, Sansa bears Joffrey a son, Catelyn is killed by White Walkers, Jaime takes the Iron Throne by killing everyone ahead of him in line, Daenerys kills Khal Drogo as revenge for him killing Viserys, and Arya is part of a love triangle involving Jon and Tyrion. (I hope that last one doesn’t disturb your sleep.) And all of this was supposed to happen in the first book! What’s more, Martin had already completed 13 chapters of A Game of Thrones when he sent in this outline, so assuming he didn’t go back and rewrite things, his outlook shifted drastically not long after this."
• Robb was originally slated to die in battle, not at the Red Wedding. But before he went, he would “maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield,” which would have been fun.
• Near the end of the first book, Catelyn, Arya and Bran would flee Winterfell after it burns and to Castle Black, but Jon and Benjen would be unable to help them on account of the Night’s Watch vows. This would lead to “a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.”
• There’s no mention in the outline of the Baratheon brothers, Cersei Lannister, Melisandre, the Greyjoys, Dorne, and a lot of other things Martin must have added as he went along.
And here you can see the actual letters (the last paragraph being blocked out since it likely contains actual threads of spoilers for the current ending
https://www.insider.com/game-of-thrones-original-story-2017-8
Wow-
just wow...
just wow...
firesprite
Master Member
A lot of those plot points were from the outline back when he thought it was just a trilogy, so take them with a MASSIVE grain of salt...
Analyzer
Master Member
Definitely
I just find it fascinating from an alternate universe type of thing.
I am glad there are many points that have changed (especially the Jon, Tyrion and Arya love triangle)
Solo4114
Master Member
I think it's interesting to see how a story evolves over time. Martin strikes me as a guy who starts with an outline so he knows where he's going, but still hews much more towards creating really believable characters, who then don't end up fitting the outline. He's then faced with a choice of "Change where the story is headed" or "conform the characters to the outline" and chooses the former usually.
I suspect this is a big part of why the last two books are taking so freaking long to finish. He's allowed the story to sprawl much farther than he originally intended, has brought in a bunch of new characters in Books 4 and 5, and now has to have them all behave in ways that are internally consistent with the characters and environment that surrounds them. That, in turn, means he has to figure out how to maneuver them in character from point A to point Z, which probably has them cross paths with still more characters, and which in turn may shift how he has to manage that end point and whatnot.
I don't mind this on the whole. I like having satisfying plot conclusions and I think it's important to keep them firmly in mind. But I also appreciate well drawn characters. What I take issue with are the two extremes where:
1. Characters behave out of character because of the demands of the plot (e.g. Danaerys torching King's Landing last episode).
or
2. Stories which end in a deeply unsatisfying manner because the writers created characters and just kind of set them loose and had no idea where their story was going. This is particularly problematic in stories that feature mysteries or prophecies or some suggestion of "The end is going to be a big deal." It's far less of a problem in stories where everything is purely about the characters just being themselves.
I'll give three examples of this being done poorly.
A. How I Met Your Mother. The end point that the showrunners tried to reach was an end point they dreamed up before the show began, and they failed to take into account how the tone of the show and nature of the characters had changed over time to move beyond that originally envisioned ending. As a result, the ending felt like a real bait and switch and was grossly mishandled. They also fell victim to the belief that "surprise" = quality storytelling and that it's important to be shocking or surprising or to keep the audience guessing. I am SO over this trope in TV and "mystery boxes" in general.
B. Battlestar Galactica. Ron Moore spent the better part of 4 years telling everyone "The Cylons have a plan!" and building it up into some big mystery, full of prophecies and weird coincidences, and the end of the story is "LULZ God did it." Spare me the literal deus ex machina nonsense, espcially in my science fiction. This was made worse by the fact that Moore actually had no idea where he was going with the story in broad strokes. The Final Five, for example, was something he added to the story without having any clue who they'd be, and then just picked people because he thought it'd be really interesting to see what would happen with the characters if it turned out they were Cylons who didn't know it.
C. The X-Files. Don't start a massive mystery/mythology if you have no idea where you're going or how it ends.
By contrast, a show like Justified ended in an entirely satisfactory fashion, with believable endings for all of the characters, because those characters behaved in ways that were true to each of them. Plus, the show was never really about some larger metaplot. Babylon 5, on the other hand, was very much about the overarching plot, spanning multiple seasons, and it still had believable ends for its characters. To me, that show remains the gold standard for how to write believable, interesting characters and still have a deeply satisfying plot.
I suspect this is a big part of why the last two books are taking so freaking long to finish. He's allowed the story to sprawl much farther than he originally intended, has brought in a bunch of new characters in Books 4 and 5, and now has to have them all behave in ways that are internally consistent with the characters and environment that surrounds them. That, in turn, means he has to figure out how to maneuver them in character from point A to point Z, which probably has them cross paths with still more characters, and which in turn may shift how he has to manage that end point and whatnot.
I don't mind this on the whole. I like having satisfying plot conclusions and I think it's important to keep them firmly in mind. But I also appreciate well drawn characters. What I take issue with are the two extremes where:
1. Characters behave out of character because of the demands of the plot (e.g. Danaerys torching King's Landing last episode).
or
2. Stories which end in a deeply unsatisfying manner because the writers created characters and just kind of set them loose and had no idea where their story was going. This is particularly problematic in stories that feature mysteries or prophecies or some suggestion of "The end is going to be a big deal." It's far less of a problem in stories where everything is purely about the characters just being themselves.
I'll give three examples of this being done poorly.
A. How I Met Your Mother. The end point that the showrunners tried to reach was an end point they dreamed up before the show began, and they failed to take into account how the tone of the show and nature of the characters had changed over time to move beyond that originally envisioned ending. As a result, the ending felt like a real bait and switch and was grossly mishandled. They also fell victim to the belief that "surprise" = quality storytelling and that it's important to be shocking or surprising or to keep the audience guessing. I am SO over this trope in TV and "mystery boxes" in general.
B. Battlestar Galactica. Ron Moore spent the better part of 4 years telling everyone "The Cylons have a plan!" and building it up into some big mystery, full of prophecies and weird coincidences, and the end of the story is "LULZ God did it." Spare me the literal deus ex machina nonsense, espcially in my science fiction. This was made worse by the fact that Moore actually had no idea where he was going with the story in broad strokes. The Final Five, for example, was something he added to the story without having any clue who they'd be, and then just picked people because he thought it'd be really interesting to see what would happen with the characters if it turned out they were Cylons who didn't know it.
C. The X-Files. Don't start a massive mystery/mythology if you have no idea where you're going or how it ends.
By contrast, a show like Justified ended in an entirely satisfactory fashion, with believable endings for all of the characters, because those characters behaved in ways that were true to each of them. Plus, the show was never really about some larger metaplot. Babylon 5, on the other hand, was very much about the overarching plot, spanning multiple seasons, and it still had believable ends for its characters. To me, that show remains the gold standard for how to write believable, interesting characters and still have a deeply satisfying plot.
Totally agree with your Babylon 5 and NuBSG assessments.
To me an ever expanding mystery box is a poor excuse for a solid story arc that has meaning and a satisfying end.
One show which was perplexing was 'Fringe'. They had some fantastic early shows but when more of what was happening became known the show swapped old mystery boxes for new ones each season. THe only saving grace with that series was an incredibly strong cast with memorable performances.
I was never sure where Game of Thrones would end up but where it is now seems like they rushed too much to tie up all the character arcs. I have watched these characters for years, saw what they went through and how they changed and grew, but now they seem like strangers at times.
To me an ever expanding mystery box is a poor excuse for a solid story arc that has meaning and a satisfying end.
One show which was perplexing was 'Fringe'. They had some fantastic early shows but when more of what was happening became known the show swapped old mystery boxes for new ones each season. THe only saving grace with that series was an incredibly strong cast with memorable performances.
I was never sure where Game of Thrones would end up but where it is now seems like they rushed too much to tie up all the character arcs. I have watched these characters for years, saw what they went through and how they changed and grew, but now they seem like strangers at times.
Last edited:
Jaitea
Master Member
Thanks for the inputs so far guys, I do appreciate itJust been looking on imdb at most recent reviews as well...
How about you Jaitea, Although we don't agree on everything, I always value your insights?
Hi SB,.....Don't remember having disagreements with you,....
Yep, I love the series & I understand the issues with the sudden higher gear in story telling,....to tell you the truth I thought the change was very refreshing,...the storytelling is fantastic, but it could be quite slow
Definitely give it a go....it will go down in history, an epic series
J
spacebob
Sr Member
Thanks again guys and thanks J I should have said more accurately, we agree on most things
Well I'm going to def give it a go, my daughter has also confirmed that this last season just isn't going the way people expected but she still loves it so that's pretty much everyone telling me to do it.
Colour me convinced, thanks again.
Well I'm going to def give it a go, my daughter has also confirmed that this last season just isn't going the way people expected but she still loves it so that's pretty much everyone telling me to do it.
Colour me convinced, thanks again.
