matty matt
Sr Member
Geez, this season is a mess. Any excitement I had for the last episode is gone. Dany should have burned King's Landing a long time ago and saved everyone a lot of trouble.
Game of Thrones
- Thread starter Husker75
- Start date
DoubleD
Sr Member
Does anyone else think that Varys was looking to poison Dany? I wondered why his spy said that Danny wasn't eating. Why would he care unless it mattered and the only reason that information would be important was if he was trying to poison her. That scene didn't strike me as important until just now.
I can't take credit for this, it was something I saw in a youtube comment (I know, dangerous place to go...youtube comments sections...), but I actually agreed with it.
The second dragon should not have been killed last week. They could've had her fly separate from the fleet or something. Then THIS week, have one of the scorpions nail the second dragon so Daenerys watches her second dragon die right as the bells go off, it would've gone a lot farther towards making the burning of the city feel like a natural shift for her.
The second dragon should not have been killed last week. They could've had her fly separate from the fleet or something. Then THIS week, have one of the scorpions nail the second dragon so Daenerys watches her second dragon die right as the bells go off, it would've gone a lot farther towards making the burning of the city feel like a natural shift for her.
Darth Fetty
Sr Member
Although I completely agree the build-up/set-up for Dany's transition was lacking, I thought the episode was absolutely brilliant. I'm completely willing to overlook the abruptness of Dany's transition to enjoy what I interpreted as an excellent metaphorical message regarding the dangers of arrogance and entitlement among supposed "strong" leaders.
Mad or not, I think she's reflecting a relatively common behavior among certain political leaders (primarily authoritarian "strong" leaders) who start to lose legitimacy among their people and then desperately try to maintain respect in whatever way they can. They are willing to see their own country's burn in order to defend their egos due to their bloated senses of entitlement. Although I won't name which, there is one particular example I'm thinking of where the country's economy has been slowly collapsing as a direct result of government policies more designed to uphold the president's ego rather than benefit the country. As this country's economy is starting to "burn", the president is now arresting anyone who criticizes him. This same leader was originally praised as a savior of the people with some major reforms that even helped historically oppressed populations in the country. Since now he is no longer "loved" by the people, he is now relying on "fear" in order to maintain whatever respect he obsessively demands from the people.
This episode was such a great metaphorical example of this, and I loved seeing the previously praised "breaker of chains" literally burn down her country in order to uphold her obsession with needing people to recognize and respect her supposed birth right. She gave up on love, and relied on fear instead.
I wish they highlighted this love vs. fear dynamic much earlier at other moments throughout the series so it wasn't so jarringly sudden when it happened. They also should have toned down Dany's earlier empathy. I can't wait for Martin's books when this transition within her will be approached much more naturally especially when we're inside her head.
Mad or not, I think she's reflecting a relatively common behavior among certain political leaders (primarily authoritarian "strong" leaders) who start to lose legitimacy among their people and then desperately try to maintain respect in whatever way they can. They are willing to see their own country's burn in order to defend their egos due to their bloated senses of entitlement. Although I won't name which, there is one particular example I'm thinking of where the country's economy has been slowly collapsing as a direct result of government policies more designed to uphold the president's ego rather than benefit the country. As this country's economy is starting to "burn", the president is now arresting anyone who criticizes him. This same leader was originally praised as a savior of the people with some major reforms that even helped historically oppressed populations in the country. Since now he is no longer "loved" by the people, he is now relying on "fear" in order to maintain whatever respect he obsessively demands from the people.
This episode was such a great metaphorical example of this, and I loved seeing the previously praised "breaker of chains" literally burn down her country in order to uphold her obsession with needing people to recognize and respect her supposed birth right. She gave up on love, and relied on fear instead.
I wish they highlighted this love vs. fear dynamic much earlier at other moments throughout the series so it wasn't so jarringly sudden when it happened. They also should have toned down Dany's earlier empathy. I can't wait for Martin's books when this transition within her will be approached much more naturally especially when we're inside her head.
Toadmeister
Sr Member
Oh good gravy.
Solo4114
Master Member
That would have worked on a surface level, but it still would've been rightly picked apart after people had a few minutes to digest things.
The scenario you describe would make sense if Dany was prepared to accept peace terms and allow Cersei to live, and then when Rhaegal gets shot down, she loses it and melts the Red Keep with Cersei (and Jaime, and the Hound, and the Mountain) in it, without regard to the collateral damage.
That would be her ruthlessly destroying an enemy who had wronged her, which she's already been proven entirely happy to do. The fact that she'd be heedless to the collateral damage would've indicated that she was starting to slide towards unchecked madness, but it wouldn't have been her fully giving in to the lunacy the show implies is in her genetic code.
The key difference is this: she knowingly burned up innocent civilians. Men, women, children, it didn't matter. She slaughtered them all with zero regard to their innocence or guilt. Just seeing Rhaegal get shot down at the moment of peace wouldn't move her to that, I don't think. Not given where we came from with this episode. It'd end up playing out the same if she watched Rhaegal die and then just said "**** it. BURN THEM ALL!!!"
The key is the shift from someone who clearly spends a lot of time trying to protect the innocent to someone who willfully slaughters them either in a fit of pique or -- worse -- to make a point. That shift is what the showrunners haven't sold, because they spent too long building her up as this hero figure. The end result is that Dany's heel-turn is "shocking" because you don't see it coming...and that's bad for characterization. Plot points are things that can surprise an audience, but the surprise still has to fit within the context of the world and characters you establish. I mean, like, imagine if Arya shows up at Storm's End at the end of the final episode, after having crossed her last name off her list (this time, Dany), and is all like "Surprise! I'm ready to be a perfect courtly lady now." That'd be "shocking" too but more because it totally doesn't fit with her character. "
The show has spent a huge amount of time developing these characters into who they are. In some cases it has shown them utterly incapable of changing (Jon, Jaime). Yet with Dany, she goes from "Mhyssa," someone who weeps at the thought that a child was killed by her dragons, and who locks them away underground, someone who tries to end slavery in Slaver's Bay specifically because she wants to free the people, someone who claims she wants to "break the wheel" to create a better world ostensibly to protect people.....to "BURN THEM ALL." I would think just killing Rhaegal wouldn't feel like enough to underscore that change.
That's not to say it couldn't be done, but it can't be done given the abbreviated schedule this season, and the fact that the show didn't effectively lay the groundwork for the heel-turn in past seasons.
firesprite
Master Member
Again, if she hadn't gone out of her way to slaughter innocents, I would agree. This is just too radical a shift in her personality too quickly. Even if we accept the concept of a psychotic break occurring, that just wasn't sold strongly enough to be believable to me. The devolution they've been trying to push as a result of these forces just hasn't been shown. They could have had 10 fewer minutes of her rampaging in King's Landing and inserted a couple of conversations to establish the groundwork for this in the episode. Have her walk in on Tyrion and Jon and have them stop talking abruptly and look uncomfortably at one another. Have Varys lurking about, talking to people quietly. Hell, have more of the people in Winterfell giving her side-eye after the Battle of Winterfell to underscore her isolation from the people she risked her life to save.
LAY THE GROUNDWORK for her to become paranoid and suspicious and deciding that Westros doesn't deserve mercy.
Solo4114
Master Member
It would take a ton of work to do it effectively, I think. At least, given what was seen in the previous seasons. You'd need to spend time showcasing a gradual descent into insanity and paranoia, and a feeling that she was threatened personally. Either that, or you'd need to spend a ton more time showing that Dany has grown increasingly ruthless, willing to take more and more atrocious steps to engineer the world she thinks should exist.
Like, the classic tale of the fallen hero being someone who starts doing bad things with good intentions, and the bad deeds gradually consume them. They keep telling themselves that each piece of their soul they sacrifice is in service to some greater good, that each atrocity they commit, each horror they visit upon those around them (their enemies, subjects, whatever) is "necessary" to engineer the right outcome, and that the right outcome will make all of those horrors no longer matter.
You see inklings of this in Dany's "Mercy is our strength. Our willingness to sacrifice these people for the mercy of future generations" speech. THAT'S how a fallen hero thinks. But there needed to be more than, you know, ONE LINE in multiple episodes. You needed to show Dany gradually compromising her morals as far back as Meereen. And to be fair, she wasn't restrained by those around her back then; she was genuinely good-hearted but inept as a ruler.
Hell, even just name-checking her experience in Meereen as they sail for Westeros would've helped. She and Varys and Tyrion could have a conversation about how she will be merciful if she is accepted, but will suffer no dissent from those who oppose her. Her time in Meereen taught her that you cannot meet a clenched fist with an open hand; you must meet it with overwhelming force. Then as she gets to Westeros, you have her engage in increasingly brutal attacks, each time hoping that this will be the last one, that her rule will be solidified if she just takes this one step farther. Then you layer in all the stuff about the loss of her advisers, the reticence of the North to accept her rule even when she saved them (maybe have her do more actual saving, by the way...), her abandonment by Jon, the weakness of her position, and all of that leading to her realizing if she doesn't take this one, clear, decisive step, her vision of a better tomorrow will slip away forever, and that Jon -- feckless but loved by all -- will misrule the Seven Kingdoms, is too weak to hold them together, and will be continually outwitted by people willing to be evil (e.g., Cersei...but also Dany without actually realizing it about herself), and in that final moment, that's when she decides to let it all burn....for the sake of the future.
But all of that takes a lot of foresight and a willingness to give her those moments to make those inner thoughts clear to the audience.
I mean, *****, Anakin Skywalker's heel turn is better telegraphed than this. He slaughters a village of Tusken raiders -- including women and children -- and he talks about "LOL maybe dictatorship would be cool..." That's more than we got for Dany.
Like, the classic tale of the fallen hero being someone who starts doing bad things with good intentions, and the bad deeds gradually consume them. They keep telling themselves that each piece of their soul they sacrifice is in service to some greater good, that each atrocity they commit, each horror they visit upon those around them (their enemies, subjects, whatever) is "necessary" to engineer the right outcome, and that the right outcome will make all of those horrors no longer matter.
You see inklings of this in Dany's "Mercy is our strength. Our willingness to sacrifice these people for the mercy of future generations" speech. THAT'S how a fallen hero thinks. But there needed to be more than, you know, ONE LINE in multiple episodes. You needed to show Dany gradually compromising her morals as far back as Meereen. And to be fair, she wasn't restrained by those around her back then; she was genuinely good-hearted but inept as a ruler.
Hell, even just name-checking her experience in Meereen as they sail for Westeros would've helped. She and Varys and Tyrion could have a conversation about how she will be merciful if she is accepted, but will suffer no dissent from those who oppose her. Her time in Meereen taught her that you cannot meet a clenched fist with an open hand; you must meet it with overwhelming force. Then as she gets to Westeros, you have her engage in increasingly brutal attacks, each time hoping that this will be the last one, that her rule will be solidified if she just takes this one step farther. Then you layer in all the stuff about the loss of her advisers, the reticence of the North to accept her rule even when she saved them (maybe have her do more actual saving, by the way...), her abandonment by Jon, the weakness of her position, and all of that leading to her realizing if she doesn't take this one, clear, decisive step, her vision of a better tomorrow will slip away forever, and that Jon -- feckless but loved by all -- will misrule the Seven Kingdoms, is too weak to hold them together, and will be continually outwitted by people willing to be evil (e.g., Cersei...but also Dany without actually realizing it about herself), and in that final moment, that's when she decides to let it all burn....for the sake of the future.
But all of that takes a lot of foresight and a willingness to give her those moments to make those inner thoughts clear to the audience.
I mean, *****, Anakin Skywalker's heel turn is better telegraphed than this. He slaughters a village of Tusken raiders -- including women and children -- and he talks about "LOL maybe dictatorship would be cool..." That's more than we got for Dany.
She watched her brother die and did nothing because he was her abuser, her tormentor.
She left Xaro Xhoan Daxos to die because he was her enemy. He tried to kill her.
She crucified slavers because they killed children.
She burned Dothraki who were attempting to put her back in chains.
The common theme is that all these people were her enemies. They had been trying to kill her first. The men, women, and children of King's Landing never did a thing to her. They were actively surrendering to her at the time she decided to murder them. After she destroyed the Iron Fleet, all the scorpions surrounding KL, and then the Golden Company, there were no longer any threats to her. She sacked the city anyway. The Daenerys of previous seasons never did anything like that before. If this was something in her all along, why didnt she destroy Mereen after they killed so many Unsullied and Ser Barristan, one of her most trusted advisors? They spent six seasons building her up as the hero, then a small handful of episodes turning her into this psycho. The groundwork was never fully laid down for what we've seen the last few episodes.
She left Xaro Xhoan Daxos to die because he was her enemy. He tried to kill her.
She crucified slavers because they killed children.
She burned Dothraki who were attempting to put her back in chains.
The common theme is that all these people were her enemies. They had been trying to kill her first. The men, women, and children of King's Landing never did a thing to her. They were actively surrendering to her at the time she decided to murder them. After she destroyed the Iron Fleet, all the scorpions surrounding KL, and then the Golden Company, there were no longer any threats to her. She sacked the city anyway. The Daenerys of previous seasons never did anything like that before. If this was something in her all along, why didnt she destroy Mereen after they killed so many Unsullied and Ser Barristan, one of her most trusted advisors? They spent six seasons building her up as the hero, then a small handful of episodes turning her into this psycho. The groundwork was never fully laid down for what we've seen the last few episodes.
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, no.
Let's break down the panels of this oh-so-clever meme, shall we?
1. Viserys: sold her to Khal Drogo and repeatedly physically abused her, then threatened her life and that of her child.
2. Xhoran and whatshername: Stole her dragons -- her "children" from her.
3. The Masters of Meereen: enslaved an entire population, and crucified slave children on milepost markers from Yunkai to Meereen.
4. The Khals in Vaes Dothraek and the two dumb Tarlys: The Khals again tried to capture her and effectively enslave her, locking her away with the other ex-Khaleesis. (Khaleesii? I dunno the plural.) The Tarlys were given the option to bend the knee and steadfastly refused. While we can quibble with her choice, these were enemy combatants who were given a chance to effectively surrender and recognize Dany's authority, and they refused, knowing what the consequences would be. Moreover, they'd just tried to attack her and her allies.
(although it's not depicted) 5. The population of King's Landing, including enemy combatants and innocent civilians -- especially women and children -- all after the city had surrendered.
One of these things is not like the other.
But I'll leave it to the guy who posted an oh-so-clever meme that suggests people who take issue with the abruptness of Dany's heel-turn are somehow mentally deficient to figure out which one it is.
Let's break down the panels of this oh-so-clever meme, shall we?
1. Viserys: sold her to Khal Drogo and repeatedly physically abused her, then threatened her life and that of her child.
2. Xhoran and whatshername: Stole her dragons -- her "children" from her.
3. The Masters of Meereen: enslaved an entire population, and crucified slave children on milepost markers from Yunkai to Meereen.
4. The Khals in Vaes Dothraek and the two dumb Tarlys: The Khals again tried to capture her and effectively enslave her, locking her away with the other ex-Khaleesis. (Khaleesii? I dunno the plural.) The Tarlys were given the option to bend the knee and steadfastly refused. While we can quibble with her choice, these were enemy combatants who were given a chance to effectively surrender and recognize Dany's authority, and they refused, knowing what the consequences would be. Moreover, they'd just tried to attack her and her allies.
(although it's not depicted) 5. The population of King's Landing, including enemy combatants and innocent civilians -- especially women and children -- all after the city had surrendered.
One of these things is not like the other.
But I'll leave it to the guy who posted an oh-so-clever meme that suggests people who take issue with the abruptness of Dany's heel-turn are somehow mentally deficient to figure out which one it is.
Darth Fetty
Sr Member
Yep, that entitled, arrogant attitude was enough to let me buy her as a villain willing to destroy a city to satisfy her ego. When no one wanted her or cared about her, that's when she snapped.
Analyzer
Master Member
There was that incident in Meereen where she beheaded the former slave who represented the Freeman in her council.
He mistakenly took her decision to give a fair trial to the captured Son of the Harpy who had murdered some unsullied as meaning that Dany could not do what she really wanted with the prisoner. So he took it upon himself to kill him for her. He was then brought out in chains and beheaded causing a riot among the people
I think that was one of the best examples of where she poorly chose showing justice over common sense
He mistakenly took her decision to give a fair trial to the captured Son of the Harpy who had murdered some unsullied as meaning that Dany could not do what she really wanted with the prisoner. So he took it upon himself to kill him for her. He was then brought out in chains and beheaded causing a riot among the people
I think that was one of the best examples of where she poorly chose showing justice over common sense
spacebob
Sr Member
I'm looking for a bit of guidance here.
I watched every episode of lost and although I enjoyed the show mostly the way it ended made me vow never to watch another long running action/fantasy/drama ( don't really know what to call it ) until it had totally finished, and the thing could be viewed as a whole.
I was looking forward to watching GOT finally but I'm only hearing bad things about it now. So, simple question...
Given that there aren't enough hours in the day as it is. Should I watch it or not?
I watched every episode of lost and although I enjoyed the show mostly the way it ended made me vow never to watch another long running action/fantasy/drama ( don't really know what to call it ) until it had totally finished, and the thing could be viewed as a whole.
I was looking forward to watching GOT finally but I'm only hearing bad things about it now. So, simple question...
Given that there aren't enough hours in the day as it is. Should I watch it or not?
The final episode hasn't happened yet, so we can give a more definitive answer next week, but without knowing what happens in it, my answer is: Yes. This series is still worth it. Regardless of whether or not they manage to stick the landing, some of what's happened in this show has been absolutely game changing for the genre.
Strikerkc
Sr Member
Sure. It's a good show.
If it helps you make a decision, I LOVED how Lost ended. Its still one of my favorite shows. I loved Game of Thrones through season 6, but now over the course of the last 2 seasons I find myself not enjoying it anymore. I'm really just hanging in there to see how it all ends.
