From Hoth to Dagobah and Bespin, and the Sithcret of the Ranch Saber

My theory on the story of the Graflex

In ANH we have the hero graflex, a complete with all its parts 3-cell unit. 7 plastic t-track grips, exactra 20 bubbles, and a d-ring and clasp assembly from a graflex camera case have been added. Now when it comes to the specific model of graflex 3-cell used we need to look at the small details. The plating on the body of the flash is very shiny and reflective, polished looking. The bottom of the flash has a thin raised lip rather than a thicker more rounded flatter lip. The lever on the clamp is shiny polished looking plating rather than a matte finish and the pin attaching the lever to the threaded rod is dark in color, is not machined, and has no head to it. The glass lens bezel is matte and not shiny/polished, and appears to have a deep recessed lens. There is a fully knurled red button with beer tab and post intact. Finally the pins are hard to tell whether or not they are straight or trs style.
anhluke rpf.jpganhluke.jpgEpisode_4_LukesToePic rpf.jpg

Now what kind of graflex model fits all of these criteria?

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This FOLMER/NEW YORK model I found about a year ago is right on the money. It hits every reference point I've seen of shots of the anh hero.

Now the bladed stunt. As far as I can tell this is an aluminum tube fitted with a graflex clamp, glass eye, and red button, making up the only graflex parts on this saber. The clamp lever appears to be matte, the red button is a thin knurled version, and the glass eye has a shiny reflective plating.

torsluke_skywalkerlukesaberanh-vi.jpgstar-wars-anh-luke-lightsaber-promo-1-x600.jpganhsabers-vi.jpg


Now lets move on to Empire

I believe this IS the ANH hero just reworked, and that every shot we see of Luke's Hero in both ANH and ESB it is always the same graflex. From ANH to ESB we see the removal of the old d-ring assembly and the addition of a new kobold bracket and the same d-ring used in ANH stretched out to fit the kobold, which has been riveted to the base of the flash. 6 grips notched at the end for fasteners, silver screws or possibly rivets in pre pro photos and briefly when luke falls of the tauntaun on screen, and the rest of the movie black screws were used. 1/2" mylar around the clamp. The tab and post are missing from under the red button and a second red button has been added whee the glass eye used to be. Of course then on dagobah the top red button goes missing.
So how do we arrive at the 2 sabers being one and the same, even there being only ONE ESB Hero for that matter? The details.
The plating on tubes all matches up, the clamp levers are all shiny reflective plating with the dark uncapped non plated non machined pin, and from the wampa cave scene we can see the ESB has a thin lipped bottom tube, and has NEW YORK visible on the bottom, which would match up with everything else the ANH flash has. Now for ESB lets also point out that the clamp card is the same in every shot as can be seen by looking at the bottom edge where the gold trace comes all the way up to the edge, and on the top edge there is a little bit of board before the gold trace and it appears to not be cut perfectly straight. There is also a small black mark in the top middle of the clamps screw slot, probably a bit of plating flaked off there. This can be seen every time that part of the saber is visible.

lsesbsab3 rpf.jpglsesbsab2.jpgTrioESB_zps7eaad61b.jpg
swempire_4816A_zps3664546f.JPGesb d ring 2.jpgesb d ring.jpg

The bladed stunt used throughout ESB is a brand new Graflex 3-cell. It has a much more matte plating on the body, thick lipped bottom, matte plated clamp lever, 2 full knurled red buttons, with the tab and post being intact under the top button, the tab post is also shiny plated unlike the matte plating found on the tab of an older folmer version. This is most likely one of the most common models of graflex out there, a manufactured by graflex with a patent number, the latest year range. It has a clamp card similar to that of the Hero, 1/2" mylar around the clamp, the clamp is flipped upside down and fastened with 2 rivets, six notched grips with black phillips screws that appear to be casts of the original t-track, a metal strap and d-ring riveted to the bottom to look like the kobold on the hero, and the removal of the bulb socket for the addition of a dueling blade and hardware. In the bespin fight scenes black tape was wrapped around the graflex clamp and then removed at some point before this saber was sold at auction

flex1-vi.jpgesb89-vi.jpgempire04b-vi.jpgempire09b-vi.jpg

The severed hand stunt saber is a graflex top tube with the red button, tab and post, and glass eye in tact, minus the bulb socket and bunny ears. it is attached to a rubber cast hand with either the botom tube and grips cast as well or possibly a kobold/linhoff style flash with grips attached.

lsesb_handvers.jpg

Well now Luke's lost a hand and his trusty lightsaber, time to build a new one, no more Graflex in the picture.

In ROTJ there is only one shot involving a Graflex as far as I know of.
thrownrotjvadersaber.jpg
 
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So what happened to the Graflex hilts after ROTJ?
Enter the Ranch Saber and the Vader ROTJ Graflex.
So the ESB bladed stunt was sold off at auction so that's out of the picture. The ANH luke/vader shared stunt hasn't been seen as far as I remember and thats just a clamp, button, and glass eye to keep track of as far as Graflex parts go. Severed hand stunt and vader stunt thrown at luke in rotj are just 2 top tubes and potentially a bottom tube or 2, there are 3 sets of these lying around after all, the obi, luke v2, v3 have 3 clamps that came from somewhere. That just leaves the Luke Hero used through both ANH and ESB.

Following the small details about the Luke Hero we can see that the Ranch Saber has the same shiny plated style clamp lever the hero had, however the lever has broken off of the threaded rod and is now fastened to the clamp sidebar with a countersunk flathead brass screw and the clamp has been secured with a domed flathead brass screw. There is 1" textured mylar on the clamp different than anything seen on screen, and it is positioned just low enough on the lever side of the clamp to see the dark mark located top middle of the clamp screw slot. There is a red button in the lens socket in the earliest photos of this saber but has since been moved to the original red button location. The pins in the top are straight, but the brass strip and metal leads going from the top pins and residing in the rectangular slots are missing. The bottom tube has a thick lip, is marked folmer-graflex with a patent number, has a kobold bracket mounted correctly with a d-ring, and 6 t-track grips notched at the bottom with black phillips screws and smaller cheesehead flathead screws at the top of each grip. Finally the circuit card, although facing the opposite direction, has the gold trace right up to the edge of the card with the opposite side having a little board, unevenly cut in the same way as the ESB shots, before the gold trace.
I believe that the Ranch Saber, which is presented by lucasfilm as the ESB hero, is mostly the Luke Hero from both films. I think it's the Hero clamp and clamp lever, the Hero circuit card, and most likely the hero top and bulb socket with the straight pins from the Hero. The bottom tube, grips, and the kobold and d-ring are all different/new to the Hero prop, the bottom screws and maybe the top ones came from the Hero.
Ranch_002-vi.jpgRare-LFL-Lucasfilm-Archives-Movie-Prop-Lost-Photos-Star-Wars-Indiana-Jones-Historic-Visit-Origin.jpgRare-LFL-Lucasfilm-Archives-Movie-Prop-Lost-Photos-Star-Wars-Indiana-Jones-Historic-Visit-Origin.jpg

Where then if the Ranch Saber is made up of the top, clamp and card of the hero did the hero's bottom and kobold end up? The Vader ROTJ Graflex.
As has been pointed out in other threads the bottom tube of the Vader ROTJ has holes drilled in the bottom that would match up with the ESB hero, there are those other holes near the top of the tube which seem to line up with where some of the top screw locations are like on the Ranch Saber, perhaps a first attempt before scrapping it in favor of a freshy? and the kobold and d-ring are definitely from the ESB Hero. Same Dents from the d-ring on the bracket, same d-ring. The rivets are new and smaller, but you can see the rings from when it had the larger rivets on the Hero prop. There is a painted brass disk covering the bottom, but from the profile of the disk it matches up with the thin lipped folmer style. The top tube may be from the Luke Hero as it has a good shine to it, not very matte, has a straight pin, but I'm pretty sure its just another top they had lying around, possibly from the flying Vader in ROTJ or from a saber seen in a bts shot attached to the top of a kobold flash which have some black paint on the top of the emitter like the Vader ROTJ.

gripcloseup1b.jpgRare-LFL-Lucasfilm-Archives-Movie-Prop-Lost-Photos-Star-Wars-Indiana-Jones-Historic-Visit-Origin.jpgVaderSaberGrip.jpgVaderSaberRear2.jpg

And one last shot of my thin lipped FolmerNEW YORK showing how well the kobold and NEW YORK lettering lines up with the wampa cave shot, featuring my vintage kobold bracket and vintage d-ring from a graflex case

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couple more of a bunch of builds I had all together at one point. All Manufactured by Graflex except for the Folmer NEW YORK which is waiting until I find another one and the rest of the vintage parts i need to do proper all vintage parts, save the t-track, ANH and ESB Hero's at the same time
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Good thorough description...I like this. But I have a few major questions.

1) the ANH d ring was riveted in the center. Are you saying the ESB hero has three holes on the bottom? Two for the Kobolds rivets and one hidden from the ANH saber? It doesn't line up, so they can't have reused the original hole.

2) do you have images of the ESB hero and SRS both showing the dark spot on the clamp?

3) can you hilight the evidence of larger rivets on the DV ROTJ stunt?

4) I can agree at a scrapped job on that saber. The holes showing between the grips aren't in the right place for ESB screws.

5) good eye spotting the card, playing finishes and stuff. I don't know if I see them yet, need to look harder

6) I can absolutely say the D ring was not reused from ANH. The ESB d rings are physically larger products, similar to the ones on Luke's belt. And the marks on the kobold will happen to any D ring in there. It's happening with mine at home, so that still doesn't technically prove they're the same kobold clip. That's why I asked about the evidence of larger rivets being replaced :)

7) why would the SRS bottom half not be from the hero too? The holes would line up (without rivets) but I may be missing some detail there.
 
Good thorough description...I like this. But I have a few major questions.

1) the ANH d ring was riveted in the center. Are you saying the ESB hero has three holes on the bottom? Two for the Kobolds rivets and one hidden from the ANH saber? It doesn't line up, so they can't have reused the original hole.

2) do you have images of the ESB hero and SRS both showing the dark spot on the clamp?

3) can you hilight the evidence of larger rivets on the DV ROTJ stunt?

4) I can agree at a scrapped job on that saber. The holes showing between the grips aren't in the right place for ESB screws.

5) good eye spotting the card, playing finishes and stuff. I don't know if I see them yet, need to look harder

6) I can absolutely say the D ring was not reused from ANH. The ESB d rings are physically larger products, similar to the ones on Luke's belt. And the marks on the kobold will happen to any D ring in there. It's happening with mine at home, so that still doesn't technically prove they're the same kobold clip. That's why I asked about the evidence of larger rivets being replaced :)

7) why would the SRS bottom half not be from the hero too? The holes would line up (without rivets) but I may be missing some detail there.

Let's see here

1) To me the hole from the d-ring in ANH absolutely lines up with one of the holes from the kobold. I recently installed one of Roy's ANH d-rings and after drilling the hole I put both my vintage kobold and Roy's kobold up to the hole and it would totally line up.

2)swempire_4816A_zps3664546f.JPGRanch_002-vi rpf.jpg

3)rpf 24362.jpggripcloseup1b rpf.jpg

4) The lower screw locations on the Vader ROTJ do line up with the ESB, at least the ones we can see. http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=139914

5) I've had about 10 3-cells over the years. That on top of all the great knowledge here, scottjua I'm talking to you, scouring ebay and such you start to notice the little things

6) As Chaim and Aison have pointed out in this thread and others the style of d-ring used on the ANH saber when stretched out match up perfectly with reference photos. Roy at wannawanna even makes his kobold d-rings this way now ;)

7) The Ranch Saber bottom tube has a thick rimmed bottom tube that is marked made by folmer-graflex and HAS a patent number. The Hero saber from both ANH and ESB has a thin rimmed made by folmer-graflex new york spelled out NO patent # bottom tube, now residing as the bottom for vader ROTJ
 
The problem with Roger's version of the stories I have are when he said he stuck chrome tape on the graflex in ANH... which it never was. There's not even pre or post production shots backing that claim up.
 
The problem with Roger's version of the stories I have are when he said he stuck chrome tape on the graflex in ANH... which it never was. There's not even pre or post production shots backing that claim up.

Yeah, and now I understood that one year ago he talked about the T-tracks being cupboard strips, and now he's talking about draft excluder. [emoji37]

But about the chrome tape. Looking at this picture, and I might be totally wrong, but it does look as if this stunt saber does have the 1/2 inch tape on the clamp.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1434918917.215353.jpg

Detail :ImageUploadedByTapatalk1434919143.065410.jpg
 
Great thread. Just getting into sabers...anyone notice the wire/cord exiting the end of the saber and running up into the arm of Luke's judo top in the ANN ObiWan hut picture? Is this one of the motorized sabers w the 3m scotchlite spinning blade?
 
Yup ... I'm glad you're here to notice these things ... why we should plug you into the hyperdrive of the Millenium Falcon and get you up to speed :lol Sorry ... just kidding ... indeed it's the motorized stunt with the scotchlite tape onto the blade, this stunt was not made of a G R A F L E X tube though it had some of those real parts attached such as a red button, glass eye and clamp. What I don't understand is ... if Roger found multiple G R A F L E X flashguns as he claims ... why wasn't one of those used for the stunt instead of a random metal tube cut to the same kind of shape?

Chaim
 
I mean, maybe they felt hesitant about taking out the bulb socket at first. I know I would be. Maybe they had trouble fitting the motor in there...

Anyways, I've had to sit on all this a bit. Thank you l33tLX for clearing some of that up!

I still feel like the bottom half of the ranch saber is from filming somehow. That D ring doesn't look fresh.

Speaking of D rings, do you guys REALLY stretch out the smaller ones? How on earth do you get such a sharp corner once it's bent out of shape?!

I for some reason totally blanked over Lichtbringer's thread, if the bottom tube isn't slid all the way up, like in a graflex clamp, I could see how they line up
 
Speaking of D rings, do you guys REALLY stretch out the smaller ones? How on earth do you get such a sharp corner once it's bent out of shape?!

I do this a few times a week! With two small pairs of pliers! And it looks EXACTLY like in the ranch-saber. The rust on it shows how the plating must have chipped of in the process.

this stunt was not made of a G R A F L E X tube though it had some of those real parts attached such as a red button, glass eye and clamp. What I don't understand is ... if Roger found multiple G R A F L E X flashguns as he claims ... why wasn't one of those used for the stunt instead of a random metal tube cut to the same kind of shape?

Maybe they were worried that a two pieces tube was too weak for holding all the interior components. Or maybe it was just very inconvenient to build it in.

But I was also pointing out that Mr. Christian's memory might be confused and he remembers putting chrome tape on SOME Graflex clamp and not specifically on the hero. Or maybe he did but it just came of during shooting by the heat of the Tunisian dessert.
 
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I mean, maybe they felt hesitant about taking out the bulb socket at first. I know I would be. Maybe they had trouble fitting the motor in there...

Anyways, I've had to sit on all this a bit. Thank you l33tLX for clearing some of that up!

I still feel like the bottom half of the ranch saber is from filming somehow. That D ring doesn't look fresh.

Speaking of D rings, do you guys REALLY stretch out the smaller ones? How on earth do you get such a sharp corner once it's bent out of shape?!

I for some reason totally blanked over Lichtbringer's thread, if the bottom tube isn't slid all the way up, like in a graflex clamp, I could see how they line up

Always happy to talk shop and get feedback on theories
 
oh **** you're right. What's holding them on?! They are resting on the lower rim so they can flip back and forth.
 
Man you nailed it with post #41 and #42, clears a lot of doubts.

Here are some pictures of the Ranch Saber. It looks like the bunny-ear rivet was removed.

Clamp detail

[url]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/raul_winchester/Dibujo2_1.png[/URL]

Red Button detail

[url]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/raul_winchester/Dibujo_1.png[/URL]

Sabers

[url]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/raul_winchester/Dibujo4_1.png[/URL]

Bunny Ear

[url]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/raul_winchester/Dibujo3_1.png[/URL]

Resource

https://youtu.be/JWAniYowdeA

Thanks man that means a lot. Killer pics and video, I've never seen this before
 
Hold on, could this be the barge climbing saber? It is a casting of a ROTJ saber with a graflex clamp lever, which would make it a hollow cast of the V2 or the Shared Stunt, a cast of an ANH era prop! (check above the pommel cubes/ring on the ROTJ hero casting.)

Screen Shot 2015-08-01 at 12.18.26 PM.png
 
Hold on, could this be the barge climbing saber? It is a casting of a ROTJ saber with a graflex clamp lever, which would make it a hollow cast of the V2 or the Shared Stunt, a cast of an ANH era prop! (check above the pommel cubes/ring on the ROTJ hero casting.)

View attachment 508958

i saw the rings as well, but too much of a novice to figure out where it belongs in history. figured it was a cast off the V2
 
You know what's really GREAT... after reading Roger Christian's post?

Many of us believed that the ANH sabers came from/ were rented from Bapty, and were modified for film use. Finding the Luke ANH Graflex it in a junk box last minute (and on a strict budget) in an old camera store is such a great story. I wonder how much he helped with the Vader and OB-1 as well?
 
i saw the rings as well, but too much of a novice to figure out where it belongs in history. figured it was a cast off the V2
Since the V2 still has its original lever, and that's definitely a graflex lever I'd have to say it's a cast of the shared stunt
 
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