For Forum Safety, an idea.

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by Reaper57, Apr 2, 2006.

  1. Reaper57

    Reaper57 Well-Known Member

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    ok guy,
    i have thought this out some but i know it will need some tuning.
    After the Raz incident i have come up with a request.
    i have been here over 6 yrs and have spent a large amount of money with other members and i am happy to say i have always come out happy and satisfied, but as of latlely it seems this may have been lucky.
    also i have started projects and had member wish to buy, such as a Freddy glove, and then i have wondered the age of the member i am selling to.
    what i propose is a verified member list .
    to get on this list { which is ones choice depending on why they are here} you must give to the Mods a picture ID and a telephone number, this will be verified by the Mods, and not open info to all.
    if a problem arises and to the Mods descretion this info will be given out to the appropiat parties.
    this needs some work i know but i think the genearal idea will benifit all.
    it will be good to know the member you are dealing with is not a minor and that he has a physical address on file.

    john :cool
     
  2. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Interesting suggestion.

    Wonder what logistics it would involve? It would have to be voluntary and i do not think the admin would want to store that information, just verify and dump. Probably have to have some type of disclaimer or two, three privacy waivers, four calling birds, five golden rings...

    Maybe that would be a good way to use the RPF title thingy space below board names?

    A bold Verified underneath your name?
     
  3. Reaper57

    Reaper57 Well-Known Member

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    Right,

    ppal does it.
    it would mostly be self protection. if your not selling or offering a service then you need not verify.
    with the net now verifying a phone number and address is no problem.
    all we ned is a verified trustworthy Mod staff, and the ones we already have are well known by different people.

    john :cool
     
  4. Jack Bauer

    Jack Bauer Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Interesting idea. I say that because i personaly have nothing to hide and would have no problem with it. Paypal is a paid organization though and do it for the saftey of themselves. This is afterall just a forum. I think hightened security probably won't work.

    I am riding the fence on this being a good and bad idea.
     
  5. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    it might give people a misconception that the mods are saying this person is ok to sell or buy from. people might get a false impression that the mods are responsible if something goes wrong with someone they said was ok. also some people who dont want to volunteer that info may feel discriminated against or be discriminated against.

    Just speculation.. system looks like it would work well but its gotta be implemented carefully. This thread will probably turn up alot of input that will help come up with some sort of rules on how this can be done
     
  6. TheSt.LouisKid

    TheSt.LouisKid Sr Member

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    What if they have offenses that can be verified? A list of offenses would need to be drawn up to make a decision. Some would obviously be a no brainer but where would it end?

    There is a recent new member here that makes this come to mind(no I'm not going to say who or why).
     
  7. stormtrooperguy

    stormtrooperguy Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    my initial reaction to that is that this is a good idea.

    make it a voluntary program, and add a "verified by RPF" type logo to the profile somewhere for that user.

    that way sellers can have the increased confidence that the buyer is at least trustworthy enough to have provided contact info to the board moderators.

    then a seller could choose to post an item for sale to verified members only.
     
  8. Reaper57

    Reaper57 Well-Known Member

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    we cant get to Gestapo with it though.

    we are not here to enforce the law or check a members background.

    just to give the members doing buisness with them the confort of knowing they are a real person and have a physical address where they can be reached.
    there for they can be held accountable not just an anonymouse user name.
    i know the idea needs some work but as JB said i have nothing to hide , and would not feel it to big a price to feel safer in this forum.

    john :cool
     
  9. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'm not sure I'm grasping the problem that this would address.

    You're concerned about SELLING to minors? That you might get in trouble for selling a prop to them? Or be suspected as a pedofile for being in contact with them?

    I can't think of many props sold here that would be inappropriate for a minor. We don't allow naughty stuff here anyway, and resin weapons are no more dangerous or illegal than stuff on the Toys-R-Us shelves. If a seller would prefer his item not go to a minor, he can always take steps to verify on his own.

    If you're shipping them something, then you'll have their address anyway, so I don't understand what a verification would accomplish.

    Just seems like a lot of bureacracy for little gain.

    Tell me what I'm missing.
     
  10. Reaper57

    Reaper57 Well-Known Member

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    no please i dont mean that.

    the minors part is only from when i was making a few SHARP freddy gloves and a few who wanted them i found out were minors.
    i personally felt i could not do this.
    i have no problem with younger members here. i welcome them.
    i just would not want to be accused of selling a 12 yr old a working phaser. :lol

    it would just be to be more secure in knowing who you were entering into a project with or send your money too.
    or taking in to your confidence.

    john :cool
     
  11. wuher da brewer

    wuher da brewer Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I think giving your ID to someone online is a little different than flashing it at the liquor store or the bar. With the liquor store, they determine identity without recording or storing the information.

    People in positions of authority are no different than anyone else. They have the propensity for good and evil. Sometimes they make mistakes or flat out abuse their power.

    We all know there are people that endlessly record information for later use. Forgive me for getting political, but I don't believe the whole give up liberty for security issue.

    Besides any system we could enact wouldn't be fool proof. There is always going to be a way to cheat the system for the determined individual. Look at the recent incident for verification.

    Does that mean there is nothing we can do? Absolutely not. It just means we have to be careful to consider the issue from all sides.
     
  12. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    yah.. our young forum members arent really problematic are they? I thought this was meant generally to help keep track of members who are safe to sell too... is it supposed to be ONLY for avoiding sales to minors?

    EDIT: question already answered by the time i posted that
     
  13. dr_slurpee

    dr_slurpee Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Could there not be legal ramifications involved? If someones personal information was abused in any way as a result of "verification" the forum and/or it's staff could be in serious trouble I'd bet.

    Not to mention that I think it's being a tad paranoid to be wanting something like this. We all know there are risks involved in this hobby, if we start treating eachother as if we are all out to con eachother then we won't have a community anymore...A verification process could very well serve to promote distrust among non-verified and verified members just because they don't want to subject themselves to being "approved" by the powers that be.

    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy more than being on a prop forum. I am not trying to be rude or ruffle any feathers, but I think talk like this is not what we need. We can't let the actions of one member affect how we live our lives or we're giving those actions more power than they deserve.
     
  14. TheSt.LouisKid

    TheSt.LouisKid Sr Member

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    For the record...

    I don't expect anyone to act on what I say.

    I'm just some vato thinking out loud.
     
  15. allosaur176

    allosaur176 Sr Member

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    Well, on may occasions, I have seen knives and swords for sale in the JY.. I know most are just "replicas" and such, but they are weapons, and sold to the wrong under aged person might stir up some trouble.. I'm not saying it would happen, just some food for thought
     
  16. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    One word

    LIABILITY
     
  17. Reaper57

    Reaper57 Well-Known Member

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    i am not saying make it mandatory.

    it would be voluntary only.

    the legalities should be void.

    this is just an idea that needs to be refined .

    lets all just add ideas and see if anything helpful will occure. :)

    it seems MORE liability would arise from not monitoring who buys what in the JY

    I am sure the legal members here could let us know on this part.

    i am more interested in knowing a member will not turn out to be who he says and money or loaned property disappear. :$
    s
    perhaps a Mod should chime in.


    john :cool.
     
  18. Trallis

    Trallis Well-Known Member

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    im thinking that should be between the buyer and seller. lets not convert this forum to revolving around doing business so much that a member can be labeled based on their worthiness in that aspect. i can think of lots of reasons a person might not want to be verified, and others wouldnt be able to help but wonder why...

    personally i think we a re all a bunch of trustworthy guys and girls.. at least until proven otherwise
     
  19. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Liability is almost never void... Disclaimer or not...

    Scenerio one

    Dispute over item sold in JY, Mod hands over personal info, member shows up (or even harrases by phone) at other members door and........

    Scenerio two

    Who holds the database of information? What if that persons computer is stolen or hacked and there personal information is used?

    The examples could go on and on forever...

    But, in the end HUGE Liability issues will bite you in the $%@#$%

    That is your own liablity and your own choice to sell to who you choose and to verify as needed...
     
  20. dr_slurpee

    dr_slurpee Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Yes, the forum has been going along fine for how long without such "verification" in place? Let's not let the actions of the few become the rules by which we trust or distrust everyone with.

    No matter what form of verification you put in place it won't eliminate the potential for someone to come along and screw people over...the person being who they say they are doesn't mean they are not a jerk or a con artist.

    I still think that the fact that some (probably a lot) people would not want to risk their personal information (whatever it might be) or they just want to keep their privacy except among those they want to trust it to would mean people would be leery or untrusting toward if they wanted to sell a prop or even buy a prop. All of a sudden people will feel pressure to become verified rather than it be voluntary, they won't want to be looked at as a potential "bad person".
     
  21. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Exactly, how long do you think it would take a con artist to photoshop up an ID?
     
  22. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    I agree with Flynn. Right now the JY is setup so that transactions are the responsibility of the buyer and seller. Occasionally we're asked to intervene, but 99% of transactions carried out here go off without a hitch.

    Honestly, in a public forum, it's next to impossible to enforce this kind of thing, and the redtape would overwhelm a volunteer staff.
     
  23. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  24. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    We could do security deposits. $1000 gets you verified, no questions asked. :D
    Sorry just finished watching Sopranos.
     
  25. TheSt.LouisKid

    TheSt.LouisKid Sr Member

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    Oops. Double post(?).
     
  26. Durasteel Corporation

    Durasteel Corporation Well-Known Member

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    I often require an photo of an ID when selling to someone.

    The ID can be faked, but at least I did what I could.


    I also ask for all numbers, addresses, to assist if I need to get ahold of a customer....which is necessary sometimes.



    I see two problems in handing over info to mods. While I feel our mods are among the best we have every had in all truthfulness, there is no telling who future mods might be.

    Honestly Id like to know more about the mods, and how they are elevated into their position as a means to make sure there are no conflicts of interest. Humans being human...we are all guilty of that on some level or another ya know?

    So if transparancy is what people want, its gotta be both ways.

    Also....frankly put, even for long term members...I dont "know them from Adam" --not all of them anyway. Just as they dont know me, I dont know them.

    How do we entrust personal information such that we can be assured that info wont be abused at some point in the future...passed onto someone else etc.

    ________________

    On a similar note, while I am very glad to see those massive accusation threads not as frequent (as miscommunication is often a culprit) I do feel that members could be awarded a similar arrangement of stars or whatever that ebay offers (for sucessful transactions in other words).

    Then again....this can also be abused via sock puppets or buddies who """buy""" something from their buddy (ie, not really) in order to bolster their rating.



    Ultimately in a democracy, abuse is gonna happen. Yet it could be worse in a totalitarian system.

    What is it Churchill said....something like, "capitalism is such and so horrible but its still the best system around? "
     
  27. jlee562

    jlee562 Sr Member

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    With respect to all you RPF veterans, I'd have to say that this is a bad idea.

    Err, let me rephrase, I don't think it's inherently a bad idea, but I don't think that it can put effectively enforced or put into use.

    First, there's the obvious security risk. I am none too eager to scan a picture ID and send it over the internet, regardless of who the recipient is. Even if members do choose to do this, who stores the IDs and how do we know that said database is secure?

    Second, it's really easy to fake an ID if you're not even gonna have to have a hard copy. One can do wonders with photoshop.
     
  28. Jedi Lawja

    Jedi Lawja Well-Known Member

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    This probably wouldn't have any effect on a dedicated scammer. Among other hobbies, I'm also a dumpster diver. No, I don't jump in and wallow in filth, I conduct a forensic exploration to determine items of value. <G> Among the things I find (Computers, PDAs, Tools, Art, Jewelry, Money, household items, etc.) I often find tossed out expired credit cards, ID's, and the like. If I wanted to pull a scam I'd just grab an ID from my box (I use them to mix epoxy on) buy a $19.95 cell phone, and 'wala. I've got an ID, I've got a phone number, and if necessary I go to a Cyber Cafe and log in to create an email account. MIND, this is not something I have DONE, or before now CONSIDERED. But if I can think it up, so can Guy Raz.

    Jay
     
  29. Darth Brass

    Darth Brass Sr Member

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    I generally don't chime in on this kinda stuff, but really don't think there's really a whole lot that can be gained by "verifying" members. Some points brought up before:
    1. Public Forum
    2. Privacy
    3. Mods are people too - s**t happens (computers get hacked, turn to dark side, etc.)
    4. Sending photos of your ID to ANYONE isn't really a good idea.

    I'm of the school of "if it ain't broke...". This isolated incident has got everyone up-in-arms and it all comes down to "s**t happens". Anywhere you go, no matter what you do, someone will try and skirt the rules, be it recasting, sockpuppet accounts, taking money and running, etc. That's why we as "buyers" and "sellers" just have to be vigilant about what we're doing here. It seems like we're family, but we're really all just a bunch of strangers living on 'teh intarweb'*.

    *excluding those of us that have met
     
  30. Blad

    Blad Sr Member

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    As we're dealing with 'underground', unlicensed products for the most part then having a list of kosher ID's with members details in an easily identifiable form and located all in one place sounds like an Infringement Lawyers wet dream.....

    I don't see a problem in a volutary mug shot and name - but as others have said that's next to useless.

    There's no easy answer.

    Signed,
    Generalissimo Rudolpho Feirstein
    Former Yugoslav Republic of Tecmundo

    ............... or am I?
     
  31. Dewy

    Dewy Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty much been covered... bad idea. Internet security is an oxymoron and as such I just don't feel comfortable giving out ANY information just so I can be 'verified' on this forum, it sounds like an empty title to me.

    Whoever said "if it ain't broke..." is right on the money in my book. This whole incident, while unfortunate, is isolated. A mere hiccup.
     
  32. Mechinyun

    Mechinyun Sr Member

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    Ditto.

    No knee jerk rpf patriot act.
     
  33. JHVanOphem

    JHVanOphem Well-Known Member

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    I also see two problems...

    1) If it was put in place and being thats its voluntary, how would people react to postings by people without the word "verified" in their profile? It would create a class system and people might feel they have to volunteer information they do not want to in order to be respected here.

    2) Again with the liability. Lets say the mods here do have records of the members, with an address or phone number or somesuch. Then along comes Lucasfilm, or Paramount etc., requesting the information to defend their copyright on an item being made/offered here. I'm sure thats something else the mods would not want to be involved with.

    I tend to agree that the concept has problems in how to implement.
     
  34. stormtrooperguy

    stormtrooperguy Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    that is an EXCELLENT point... i tend to forget that much of what goes on here is by the good graces of the various license holders, and that having the information there might cause the RPF staff to be "too involved" in the process.
     
  35. IndyBlues

    IndyBlues Sr Member

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    Also, if you are a casual seller/buyer, who may only buy or sell a few things over the course of a year,..you would hardly qualify for "Verified" status, considering only a few(yet legit) sales/purchases under your belt.
    This seems more for power sellers, than the casual member,..like me.
    'Blues

    BTW, never stiffed anyone yet, and don't intend to. Just making an observation.
    'B
     
  36. Reaper57

    Reaper57 Well-Known Member

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    well since this has blow up into a big brother idea then the id parts are mute. :p

    then perhaps the mods could add an area on our personal info page that we already have where we could have posted feedback left by people we have delt with here . as on ebay :angel

    john :cool
     
  37. WinstonWolf359

    WinstonWolf359 Sr Member

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    I don't think it was originally intended for this purpose, but a while back we added a field in the member profile for "eBay username" which could be used to determine buyer/seller reliability.

    It's certainly not foolproof (even EDC has a great feedback rating) but it might help...

    As for me personally...

    Most of the time I usually only deal with people that I know or are familiar with. If not, I ask that person questions or people I trust if they know anything, good or bad.

    Frankly, if a person seems flaky in their regular posts I'm a little more cautious about dealing with them. Not saying I'm right, that's just how I feel...
     
  38. KevVader

    KevVader Sr Member

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    ...that makes more sense and would be far easier to manage....
     
  39. Gigatron

    Gigatron Sr Member

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    Wouldn't the easiest way to do this is just everone post up their ebay user ID? That way, you could go to ebay, check the user's ratings and decide if they want to do business with them. Anyone can go to ebay, click on any auction and look at the feedback rating of any ebay user. Doesn't give away any personal info or anything.

    If a member doesn't have an ebay user ID, then dealing with that person is just a shot in the dark like it is now, no different.

    Just a thought.

    -Fred
     
  40. TFrosst

    TFrosst Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    If the mods give another person the info because of a complaint, that opens up waaaay too many doors. Who's to judge which side made the problem? What if the person complaining is lying but is good friends with a mod and the person that they're complaining about is decent and honest but a newbie, then what? Because this is a forum and not a business, it's not a good idea. I wouldn't want to give my phone number to someone that can choose to give it out to whomever he feels should have it.

    A few things I can think of: IP addy's should be connected to members so that if a banned member tries to get it again, it'll be a bit more difficult. Also, if a member has a ton of compalints about him, he/she should be banned from the JY, put on a permanent "probationary" period. Like when newbies sign up.
     
  41. SethB6025

    SethB6025 Well-Known Member

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    If you're (not directed at anyone personally) worried about selling in the JY, don't use it. It's your responsibility to check out the person you're dealing with. Sale threads on message boards are there as a convenience. It's a shame that anyone has problems at all. I think it would be an unneccesary hassle for the MODs, and create a potential legal & personal security issue.
     
  42. RogueScout

    RogueScout Well-Known Member

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    This idea is about as good as a submarine with screen doors. Sorry for being direct but im not giving out my personal info to a person or group of persons who I do not personally know... If that means I can't sell here.. then fine.. I sell on ebay or though word of mouth. My personal security and safety is personally worth more to me than the few dollars I may lose becuse im not verified through the RPF.


    Rob
     
  43. gnrlotto

    gnrlotto Sr Member

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    What the heck is this supposed to mean? I'm a relatively new member, and I can't be the only newer member to be "Huh?" at these sort of grim pronouncements; when's this other shoe gonna drop--otherwise it's kinda bs to make this sort of a statement...

    Especially with the kind of comments that others were making in the 'Guy's a Kiddie Rapist' thread, about watching out for new members, etc., even though I firmly established my line in that thread (Kiddie touching...Don't like it, sir, don't like it at all), I'm gonna quit this place if this kind of having-to-always-watch-my-back feeling becomes the pervasive attitude around here.

    And besides the point, that doesn't even make sense. The one to have done this was a registered member for years that people "knew" and had business dealings with--not a new member. I really don't want this place turing into a Salem... "Well, gnrlotto's (or whomever) annoyed me a couple times...Goodie Otto is a witch. burn him." That just don't fly.
     

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