Solo4114
Master Member
In the course of this discussion, to try to pin down what fascism actually is, I took a look at the 25 Principles of the Nazi Party. Some of it was fairly straightforward (albeit stuff I'd never support), but some of it seemed to make VERY little sense and was self-contradicting. I'm not going to get into any of the details here (and I encourage others NOT to get into the details here for fear of derailing this thread), but they really did not make a ton of sense, at least in terms of internal consistency.
Anyway, dystopian ORGANIZED societies (as opposed to post-apocalyptic barbarism) are often totalitarian police/military states. This tends to be, I believe, because it is our most recent touchstone for institutionalized "evil." That said, while they could conceivably use otehr forms of government, I think what we would mostly consider "evil" from a government these days would be things like heavily restricting personal liberties and the appearance of an arbitrary legal system (IE: people can be "disappeared" for publicly dissenting with the government or for other minor infractions). Modern/futuristic depictions of evil governments, therefore, will tend to reflect our most modern examples thereof. So, naturally, Nazi Germany becomes the basis for comparison and anything you can do to make your badguys more nazi-like is essentially shorthand for "evil."
I think this is a big part of why, for a lot of folks, the Commies in Crystal Skull didn't work quite as well and seemed to be "stand-in Nazis." I got into some discussions on the Club Obi-Wan boards about this. I think it's because, without saying anything about the very real atrocities committed during the Stalinist period in Russia, or the limits on personal freedom in any period in Soviet Russia, THESE days, to modern audiences, "Commies" you have to establish as bad via their actions. As in "Ok, just to be clear, these are the BAD commies, k?" Whereas if you see a guy in a Wehrmacht or Gestapo uniform, you KNOW he's a badguy in the film. If he does the sieg heil, bad guy. If he has a friggin' German accent and the movie is set any time from about 1933-1948, badguy. Done. Next question.
Nazism is so ingrained in our cultural psyche as synonymous with "evil" that it now acts as shorthand. Same goes for anything resembling Nazism or the Nazis. Paul Verhoven notes this in the DVD commentary on Starship Troopers when he has the Sky Marshalls show up wearing, basically, Werhmacht uniforms, and when Carl shows up in a high peaked cap and long leather trenchcoat (Hello? Gestapo?). He basically says "When people saw this I wanted them to instantly think 'evil', or at least have that in the back of their minds." It works, too. You see the same thing with the imperial officers in Star Wars.
Verhoven doesn't portray the human society as "good", either. while our protagonists come from there, and we like our protagonists, his society is also brutal, highly restrictive of personal freedoms, and the stylized ways in which the newsreel bits come into play depict the people as easily manipulated pawns. Remember the scene where the little kids are all stomping on bugs and the mother is grinning and clapping like a lunatic? How about the whole discussion of citizenship and voting rights as derived exclusively from state service? What about the sheer incompetence of the military in their various assaults? I think the whole point here is to depict a future society of this type as BAD, while simultaneously messing with our heads as we root for our heroes.
Verhoven's a pretty messed up guy. I mean, I love his work, but the man grew up in occupied Holland. His world view is totally warped by that experience and he admits it, too.
Anyway, dystopian ORGANIZED societies (as opposed to post-apocalyptic barbarism) are often totalitarian police/military states. This tends to be, I believe, because it is our most recent touchstone for institutionalized "evil." That said, while they could conceivably use otehr forms of government, I think what we would mostly consider "evil" from a government these days would be things like heavily restricting personal liberties and the appearance of an arbitrary legal system (IE: people can be "disappeared" for publicly dissenting with the government or for other minor infractions). Modern/futuristic depictions of evil governments, therefore, will tend to reflect our most modern examples thereof. So, naturally, Nazi Germany becomes the basis for comparison and anything you can do to make your badguys more nazi-like is essentially shorthand for "evil."
I think this is a big part of why, for a lot of folks, the Commies in Crystal Skull didn't work quite as well and seemed to be "stand-in Nazis." I got into some discussions on the Club Obi-Wan boards about this. I think it's because, without saying anything about the very real atrocities committed during the Stalinist period in Russia, or the limits on personal freedom in any period in Soviet Russia, THESE days, to modern audiences, "Commies" you have to establish as bad via their actions. As in "Ok, just to be clear, these are the BAD commies, k?" Whereas if you see a guy in a Wehrmacht or Gestapo uniform, you KNOW he's a badguy in the film. If he does the sieg heil, bad guy. If he has a friggin' German accent and the movie is set any time from about 1933-1948, badguy. Done. Next question.
Nazism is so ingrained in our cultural psyche as synonymous with "evil" that it now acts as shorthand. Same goes for anything resembling Nazism or the Nazis. Paul Verhoven notes this in the DVD commentary on Starship Troopers when he has the Sky Marshalls show up wearing, basically, Werhmacht uniforms, and when Carl shows up in a high peaked cap and long leather trenchcoat (Hello? Gestapo?). He basically says "When people saw this I wanted them to instantly think 'evil', or at least have that in the back of their minds." It works, too. You see the same thing with the imperial officers in Star Wars.
Verhoven doesn't portray the human society as "good", either. while our protagonists come from there, and we like our protagonists, his society is also brutal, highly restrictive of personal freedoms, and the stylized ways in which the newsreel bits come into play depict the people as easily manipulated pawns. Remember the scene where the little kids are all stomping on bugs and the mother is grinning and clapping like a lunatic? How about the whole discussion of citizenship and voting rights as derived exclusively from state service? What about the sheer incompetence of the military in their various assaults? I think the whole point here is to depict a future society of this type as BAD, while simultaneously messing with our heads as we root for our heroes.
Verhoven's a pretty messed up guy. I mean, I love his work, but the man grew up in occupied Holland. His world view is totally warped by that experience and he admits it, too.
