Fascism in Sci-Fi
- Thread starter ReaverReject
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Solo4114
Master Member
How are we getting close to talking about politics? Does "political theory" in a clinical and scientific fashion qualify as "politics"? I thought the ban on politics was to avoid "Oh YEAH?! Well the DEMOCRATS/REPUBLICANS/GLEN BECK ARMY blah blah BLAH!!" style discussions -- more to avoid raging flame wars re: current affairs in politics than to avoid all mention of any kind of political theory. I only mention Franco, Hitler, and the Argentinian junta by way of illustration. We're talking political theory in totally abstract terms.
I agree that it's almost impossible to talk about Scifi without including politics as politics is always the core of every story. Heck our beloved Star Wars franchise is based 100% on politics.
Skaught
Sr Member
No, it's not. So I'll keep on saying it. A country can't believe or disbelieve in anything, any more than it can be a fan of a particular football team, prefer ketchup over mustard, or think country music is irritating. A belief/disbelief is something only an individual can hold, requiring consciousness. Sure, people may call a country a "Christian Nation" or a "Atheist Nation", but that's actually describing the belief of the people who live in that country. So the more accurate description would be a "Nation of Christians", a "Nation of Atheists" or a "Nation of Colts Fans".
Sure, governments can be formed around certain religious or non-religious principals and run by adherants to those particular belief, but my point that a country can not believe in anything isn't negated.
Phase Pistol -- the correct term I think you were looking for struck me with a big "DUH" while I was at lunch. Something about food makes the obvious float to the top for some reason. The term has already been mentioned, too -- "secular". The U.S. government is officially secular. That's quite different from "atheist". I attended a secular high school, not an atheist high school, for example.
Scott
And if we want to get technical, the irony is atheism has been classified as a religion 
defstartrooper
Sr Member
There's a difference between discusing space fiction politics and real world politics.
This thread pretty much shows that people can't seperate the two though which is why there's probably a blanket ban on the subject.
ReaverReject
Active Member
Wow - this thread has certainly stirred a lot of discussion & debate. I appreciate the civility in the responses and disagreements.
I threw those 3 components of fascism out there not to confine the discussion but to guide it - sorry if it's served to fuel controversy over definitions rather than discussions of the role of fascism in sci-fi movies.
I suggest that all or some of these components can co-exist in order to meet the burden of my definition. If not fascism per-se, then definitely totalitarian, imperial, monarchical, theocratic, dictatorial, oligarchic, plutocratic, or otherwise authoritarian in some way.
Also, religion can be adopted and distorted by such a government as a tool of social control. Hence, a government-sanctioned or state religion still in my view meets the definition of atheism as a fascist component of governance, since individuals are not free to choose their faith and risk harsh reprisals for questioning or resisting the official one (or lack of it, if we want to include communism in the discussion), hence atheism is not a choice, but an individual's abandonment of faith out of obedience. I included Planet of the Apes because it meets this criteria, plus in the end of the film we learn that Dr. Zaius knew the truth the whole time and all but admitted that Ape history and theology were fabricated to hide it. And in Equilibrium, the Grammaton Clerics don't represent any specific faith, but rather employ the cynical use of religious titles to foster the acceptance of unquestionable authority and fear of retribution (think The Spanish Inquisition).
My main point, I think, is that all the forms of government listed above contain at least 2 of the three primary components of fascism, as I defined it, so rather than argue about strict definitions, let's examine how they play a role in sci-fi films & TV shows and how they differ from one another.
Also, as some have pointed out, dystopian futures with neo-fascist or otherwise authoritarian future regimes may certainly be painted in a positive light if the hero is part of the government machine and supports it (like in Starship Troopers - THE MOVIE ) or as a villain for the hero to slay or to operate in defiance of (all the rest). More often than not, the hero starts off as an agent of the regime, discovers a fundamental flaw or untruth about it, or rebels against it out of some moral objection (Logan's Run, Fahrenheit 451, Brazil, etc.)
One aspect of fascism in Sci-Fi I forgot to bring up, so I'd like to take the opportunity now. In many films, aliens whose agenda is either extermination, exploitation, or subjugation, for one reason or another, is also a recurring theme, whether the victim is Earth or some other planetary civilization. Here are a few to consider:
They Live
The Day the Earth Stood Still Remake (fascist alien environmentalists attack)
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Dune
Dark City
V
Or the other form, where the oppressors are man-made machines, computers, or genetically-modified or mutated creatures:
The Matrix
Terminator
Battlestar Galactica
The Time Machine
THX 1138
Alphaville
And finally, there's the form of fascism where one mega-corporation has completely usurped, replaced, circumvented, or employed disproportionate influence on any form of functional democratic government authority and calls the shots as it sees fit:
Blade Runner - Tyrell Corporation
Wall-E - Buy & Large
Alien - Wayland-Yutani Corporation (The Company")
Avatar - RDA
Soylent Green - the Soylent Corporation
Firefly/Serenity - Blue Sun
Discuss!
RR
I threw those 3 components of fascism out there not to confine the discussion but to guide it - sorry if it's served to fuel controversy over definitions rather than discussions of the role of fascism in sci-fi movies.
I suggest that all or some of these components can co-exist in order to meet the burden of my definition. If not fascism per-se, then definitely totalitarian, imperial, monarchical, theocratic, dictatorial, oligarchic, plutocratic, or otherwise authoritarian in some way.
Also, religion can be adopted and distorted by such a government as a tool of social control. Hence, a government-sanctioned or state religion still in my view meets the definition of atheism as a fascist component of governance, since individuals are not free to choose their faith and risk harsh reprisals for questioning or resisting the official one (or lack of it, if we want to include communism in the discussion), hence atheism is not a choice, but an individual's abandonment of faith out of obedience. I included Planet of the Apes because it meets this criteria, plus in the end of the film we learn that Dr. Zaius knew the truth the whole time and all but admitted that Ape history and theology were fabricated to hide it. And in Equilibrium, the Grammaton Clerics don't represent any specific faith, but rather employ the cynical use of religious titles to foster the acceptance of unquestionable authority and fear of retribution (think The Spanish Inquisition).
My main point, I think, is that all the forms of government listed above contain at least 2 of the three primary components of fascism, as I defined it, so rather than argue about strict definitions, let's examine how they play a role in sci-fi films & TV shows and how they differ from one another.
Also, as some have pointed out, dystopian futures with neo-fascist or otherwise authoritarian future regimes may certainly be painted in a positive light if the hero is part of the government machine and supports it (like in Starship Troopers - THE MOVIE
) or as a villain for the hero to slay or to operate in defiance of (all the rest). More often than not, the hero starts off as an agent of the regime, discovers a fundamental flaw or untruth about it, or rebels against it out of some moral objection (Logan's Run, Fahrenheit 451, Brazil, etc.)One aspect of fascism in Sci-Fi I forgot to bring up, so I'd like to take the opportunity now. In many films, aliens whose agenda is either extermination, exploitation, or subjugation, for one reason or another, is also a recurring theme, whether the victim is Earth or some other planetary civilization. Here are a few to consider:
They Live
The Day the Earth Stood Still Remake (fascist alien environmentalists attack)
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Dune
Dark City
V
Or the other form, where the oppressors are man-made machines, computers, or genetically-modified or mutated creatures:
The Matrix
Terminator
Battlestar Galactica
The Time Machine
THX 1138
Alphaville
And finally, there's the form of fascism where one mega-corporation has completely usurped, replaced, circumvented, or employed disproportionate influence on any form of functional democratic government authority and calls the shots as it sees fit:
Blade Runner - Tyrell Corporation
Wall-E - Buy & Large
Alien - Wayland-Yutani Corporation (The Company")
Avatar - RDA
Soylent Green - the Soylent Corporation
Firefly/Serenity - Blue Sun
Discuss!
RR
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Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Snipped
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OldKen
Master Member
"I LIKE TURTLES!" :angel
Solo4114
Master Member
I think the debate there is one of semantics, specifically around the concept of "belief." Skaught's point, if I may be so bold as to hazard a guess here, is that a nation-state, as an inanimate object (and arguably not even that -- as a concept springing from human action) cannot ITSELF "believe" anything. Only a living being can "believe." Since a state is not "alive" it can therefore not "believe."
That, however, is decidedly different from a state decreeing a particular religion to be the state religion, and/or outlawing or otherwise restricting other religions. But I think Skaught's point is that such action is not "belief," but rather a legal action taken by the government. Of course, that gets into distinctions between the government and the nation (which I don't think are the same thing). But at any rate, I think that's where he's going. "Belief" can only be held by an individual sentient entity. A state is not an individual or sentient, ergo it cannot itself "believe" anything. It can, however, manifest via legal and political action the collective beliefs of its people.
Skaught
Sr Member
Skaught
Sr Member
Yes, that's pretty much it. And I know it sounds a bit like splitting hairs, but my point was that a country can not be "atheist". Secular, yes.
Scott
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Snipped
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Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
And if we want to get technical, the irony is atheism has been classified as a religion
It was the only way they could obtain respect for their beliefs, I suppose. Theists are free to offend atheists, but atheists are not allowed to offend theists. The idea was to even that out, I think.
For fascism in sci-fi, Starship Troopers is one of the most fascinating, to my mind. I've never quite managed to work the tone of that film out. I've never read the book, but I'm sure Heinlein plays it all straight, while Verhoeven seems to be up to something. Is he conducting some mindbending empathy experiment in that film or what? He puts us more or less on the side of the humans but constantly shows the human organisation to be grotesque, merciless and crass, and makes us side entirely with the queen bug when it gets captured and taunted at the end. Plus, he is perfectly clear that humanity started the war, that the bugs are acting in self-defence. Added to this - and this is the really interesting part - he makes the human heroes completely at ease with their fascistic government. They're happy uncomplaining high school kids, who still don't gripe when they get their arms and legs ripped off. He makes them airheaded Beverley Hills 90210 types very deliberately, yet he makes them at the same time likable, watchable, so we want them to trash the bugs, whom he invites us to empathise with at the end. It's either a tonal mess, or something really quite interesting indeed. I kind of come down on the side of the latter...
Taco-Bot
Well-Known Member
I think maybe Palpatine is a sort of reflection of Nixon. I think that the empire as a whole was inspired more by Hitler's Nazi regime.
Actually, I think you may be thinking of the Knights of Columbus lobbying to have "under god" inserted into the pledge of allegiance, which took place in 1954.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_columbus#Political_activities
The phrase "In god we trust" was first added to official US currency in 1864 as a result of a growing Christian movement about the same time as the civil war. The phrase also became the 'official' U.S. motto in the '50's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust
Jumpin Jax
Sr Member
It was. A large part, including the not-too-subtle use of the word "empire" was based on the Roman Empire. The entire takeover of the republic from the first pages of the first version of Star Wars was a reenactment of Caesar's move to absolute power.
Nixon...... :confused
I lived through the Nixon presidency and I am a political science/history junkie. What the heck am I missing here?
Taco-Bot
Well-Known Member
It was something Lucas mentioned around the time of the release of ROTS in response to ROTS having analogies to the bush administration.
franz bolo
Sr Member
Only thing I ever heard was that the Trade Federation sounded Chinese and people were mad about it.
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