Fascism in Sci-Fi

[CTF]

They also thought Jar Jar was Jamaican.

And the clones were Mexicans.

 

[IndyFanChuck]

SO ANYWAY...........


Last semester we read a beautifully written history of sci fi essay penned by a Nobel lauriet, who's name for the life of me I can't remember.

Basically, it stated how the best and most famous sci fi has always been used as social criticism and that my friend is why you find so many elements of fascism, religion, or anything else that can turn into poison.


Good sci fi is social criticism and has a deeper more powerful meaning beyond technologies and robots and such.

 

[Skaught]

Differing definition or not, we are a Christian country and stating otherwise is just plain wrong.

Wrong by your definition, maybe. Not by my definition. I'll give up on trying to help you understand my point I guess.

Scott

 

[fuelish]

For fascism in sci-fi, Starship Troopers is one of the most fascinating, to my mind. I've never quite managed to work the tone of that film out. I've never read the book, but I'm sure Heinlein plays it all straight, while Verhoeven seems to be up to something. Is he conducting some mindbending empathy experiment in that film or what? He puts us more or less on the side of the humans but constantly shows the human organisation to be grotesque, merciless and crass, and makes us side entirely with the queen bug when it gets captured and taunted at the end. Plus, he is perfectly clear that humanity started the war, that the bugs are acting in self-defence. Added to this - and this is the really interesting part - he makes the human heroes completely at ease with their fascistic government. They're happy uncomplaining high school kids, who still don't gripe when they get their arms and legs ripped off. He makes them airheaded Beverley Hills 90210 types very deliberately, yet he makes them at the same time likable, watchable, so we want them to trash the bugs, whom he invites us to empathise with at the end. It's either a tonal mess, or something really quite interesting indeed. I kind of come down on the side of the latter...

The rights to the book were purchased and the title, character names, and some plot elements used. This was done after production started when someone realised that their movie, about space marines fighting giant bugs, sounded a lot like StarShip Troopers by R.A. Heinlein. The book is a good read, but you might get called a fascist by somene that has not read it(OR has low reading comprehension).

 

[ReaverReject]

It was the only way they could obtain respect for their beliefs, I suppose. Theists are free to offend atheists, but atheists are not allowed to offend theists. The idea was to even that out, I think.

For fascism in sci-fi, Starship Troopers is one of the most fascinating, to my mind. I've never quite managed to work the tone of that film out. I've never read the book, but I'm sure Heinlein plays it all straight, while Verhoeven seems to be up to something. Is he conducting some mindbending empathy experiment in that film or what? He puts us more or less on the side of the humans but constantly shows the human organisation to be grotesque, merciless and crass, and makes us side entirely with the queen bug when it gets captured and taunted at the end. Plus, he is perfectly clear that humanity started the war, that the bugs are acting in self-defence. Added to this - and this is the really interesting part - he makes the human heroes completely at ease with their fascistic government. They're happy uncomplaining high school kids, who still don't gripe when they get their arms and legs ripped off. He makes them airheaded Beverley Hills 90210 types very deliberately, yet he makes them at the same time likable, watchable, so we want them to trash the bugs, whom he invites us to empathise with at the end. It's either a tonal mess, or something really quite interesting indeed. I kind of come down on the side of the latter...

Oh, I definitely, one hundred percent believe he was messing with us and trying to get us to feel discomfort at siding & identifying with the authoritarian-slash-imperialist human characters, even though he made it all too easy for us to fear and despise the mindless hoards of marauding bugs. It's an excellent point, and it was present to a lesser degree in Robocop, too.

Remember, it doesn't take much to go from this:

to this:

And if we were living in Nazi Germany, I have no doubt the overwhelming majority of us would have followed along like good little fascists. Mind-control is a terrible weapon to use against one's own society... It happened here very, very effectively on a microscopic scale, during a high school classroom social experiment called "The Third Wave," beautifully dramatized in a famous afternoon TV special from 1981 called The Wave, starring Bruce Davison (from the first X-Men movie):

http://www.toddstrasser.com/html/thewave2.htm

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083316/

I *HIGHLY* recommend a viewing of the 50-minute short film on YouTube (in Part 1 & Part 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVRXXbU-z7U

Remember this, people?

"STRENGTH THROUGH DISCIPLINE!"

"STRENGTH THROUGH COMMUNITY!"

"STRENGTH THROUGH ACTION!"

and probably the most famous line from Bruce Davison, who played the high school teacher who conducted the experiment:

"It's amazing how much more they like you (i.e., government, authority) when you make decisions for them!"

(and no, I will NOT be tempted to tie that quote into what's happening in our country today, with attempts by a certain administration to turn America into a socialist nanny state... No, I will NOT go there! )

What blew my mind was that none of the fertile ground that existed in post-WWI poor, hungry, demoralized Germany for fascism to thrive was present in this sunny, upscale, progressive, liberal, very much 90210 type coastal California town of Palo Alto. The Milgram Experiment, the Jane Elliott brown-eye/blue-eye kindergarten demonstration, the Stanford prison experiment, and others proved beyond a doubt that we all have the potential to adopt fascist behavior with very little or no incentive, no matter our ages, socio-economic standing, education level, or intelligence. And the more one is feeble-minded, ignorant, or weak, like simple Robert from The Wave (who today would represent the withdrawn, bullied nerd, geek, goth, what have you), the first one is to fully, mindlessly embrace it. In real life, Robert would be the most likely to commit a Columbine-style massacre...

So in that respect, I tip my hat off to Paul Verhoeven, say what you will of his butchering of the Heinlein book, for reminding us, as The Wave did, how easy it is to shed our individuality, embrace Group Think, and empathize with and adopt totalitarian authority... I'm surprised he was really the only director to portray a fascist future and its heroes in a positive light. As an aside, Starship Troopers was my favorite Heinlein novel, and I met him at a book signing when I was 16. He was, at the time, my favorite author.

RR

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

But you do feel Verhoeven had a positive view of his fascistic society? I rather think it was the opposite. Seems to be an attitude you can trace back to Robocop, the tone of which was very, very similar to the Judge Dredd comics of the late 70s and 80s, of which the writers now say they were making satirical social commentary on the right wing government of Thatcher, projecting a caricature of that 200 years into the future. Dredd's the hero, but he spends as much time busting jaywalking pedestrians (3 years in an isolation cube) or litter -droppers (one of whom he chases to his death), as he does violent criminals. My take on ST is that he's making a highly subversive comment on contemporary America. But you have to get past the thrillingness of the film - and Denise Richards - to get to that, so that's probably how he got away with it, lol...

The film you refer to looks interesting, and yes, you're right, apparently it does not take much to condition an impressionable person, or even break a strong-minded, moral person and re-mold them into an obedient drone for the person-breaker. It's one of the very darkest truths about us.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

I was just telling my Greek girlfriend about this thread and she reminded me of the very interesting fact that Plato's attempt to build a perfect society in The Republic looks incredibly close to modern fascism. He builds his utopia through logic, but winds up with Nazi style eugenics (spastics, sickly children should be killed etc.) So, all these SF dystopias go back to Plato's 'logic-constructed' 'utopia'...just thought I'd toss that in.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Snipped

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Actually, I think you may be thinking of the Knights of Columbus lobbying to have "under god" inserted into the pledge of allegiance, which took place in 1954.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_columbus#Political_activities

The phrase "In god we trust" was first added to official US currency in 1864 as a result of a growing Christian movement about the same time as the civil war. The phrase also became the 'official' U.S. motto in the '50's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Also, to place the above in a broader historical context:

From the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted under George Washington in 1796, and signed by John Adams in 1797:

'As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...'


Jump to 1988:

'I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. We are one nation under God' - George Bush Sr. (apparently).


(I don't think we're breaking CoC with this, as no one's expressing their religious or political views. We're simply taking an academic look at the history and theory of religion and politics.)

 

[IndyFanChuck]

Why don't we just drop the religious discussion and move on to talking about what sci fi does in social satire and social criticism, because talking about religion is just going to get this topic locked.

So ANYWAY, there are many authors who used their sci fi as social critisizm. Such as Bradbury, Asimov, Heinline, Bova, Vonnegut, and so so so many more.

 

[Art Andrews]

Why don't we just drop the religious discussion and move on to talking about what sci fi does in social satire and social criticism, because talking about religion is just going to get this topic locked.

Good call. The temptation to lock now is pretty high, but we'll let this play out a little more in hopes that you guys will keep your discussions MOVIE based.

While I am sure you all are aware of it, let me remind you of the MGL rule against discussing religion/politics.

Please refrain from making posts that specifically discuss a political/religious view, a religious/political figure (historic political figures will be handled on a case by case basis), or a subject that will inevitably draw members into a political/religious debate (e.g Evolution/Creationism or the politics behind the War on Terror). Please refrain from disparaging those with a particular religious or political view (see Discrimination).

Note: It is unrealistic to believe that a religious or political viewpoint won’t work its way onto the site in some fashion (e.g mentioning you will pray for a sick member or mentioning the President of the United States). It is important to remember that the purpose of this policy is not to limit your ability to express your beliefs but to limit the division often caused by discussing/debating differing points of view regarding these subjects.

If you want to discuss the social commnetaries/impact of films, knock yourself out. If you are just looking for an angle to get your political/religious viewpoint pushed through, well, there are plenty of other sites that welcome political/religious debate.

This has actually been a relatively interesting/civil discussion with a few sidetracks. Keep it on target.

 

[Skaught]

I'm sure the countries that have implemented Sharia Law, which is a religious system, will also not be called Islamic countries by you, but the majority of people certainly will.

No, and again, you missed my point. But nevermind.

Scott

 

[Ttaskmaster]

"An empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy"

"The central planets — them as formed the Alliance — decided all the planets had to join under their rule"

Supposedly the Alliance is governed by a King, on the planet Londinium.
There's a mention of that in one of the episodes.

Could you please point me towards where that is said in the series? I must have missed it.

The first part is a definition of 'empire' taken from one of the online dictionaries.

Second bit, about the central planets, is from the voiceover intro by Mal, used at the begining of TV airings. It's not present on my Region 2 DVD box set but I understand is included on other versions. It's one of those re-cap/intro things some series have, like "Last time on Star Trek".

Mal says at some point, "I'd like to be the King of Londinium".
I'll have to re-watch the whole series to remember which ep, though.

While leadership is never fully explored as the show was cancelled, the intimation is that there's a monarchy and while there's no definite dictatorial leader person, the 'leader' could be a group of people or even a figurehead.

It certainly tries for a centralized autocratic government, which is why they had the war.


Anyway, I only said it was similar in some respects to, not the definitive model of, what Phase was describing.

 

[Solo4114]

Minor note here on the Star Wars parallels to real history.

Palpatine's rise to power actually mirrors (well...sorta) Hitler's rise, rather than Caesar's rise. Caesar was a dictator who was sharing power with Pompey Magnus at the time and a then-deceased third member of the Triumvirate. Caesar was a general fighting in Gaul (and winning victories and treasure for the people), who ended up coming back to Rome to cement his control and challenge Pompey.

By contrast, Hitler rose to political prominence and manipulated several other establishment figures who thought they could control him. After becoming Chancellor in 1933, he gradually had bits and pieces of the laws revised to allow him to eventually be declared Fuhrer and establish the third Reich (reich as in empire). Again, the parallels aren't perfect, and there was a LOT more subtlety and political maneuvering in Hitler actually even becoming Chancellor, but there are more parallels with Hitler than with Caesar.

That said, it really doesn't pay to look TOO hard into this stuff. Lucas says he has a background in anthropology rather than history and/or political science, so I wouldn't figure he'd be too focused on creating either a direct parallel to Hitler's (or Caesar's) rise, especially considering the complexity of the subject. Hitler's rise is often HEAVILY glossed over as people focus more on Hitler himself than on the historical elements and other historical figures that allowed him the opportunity to rise in the first place. You actually need to go back to at least the fall of the Hohenzollerns and the German aristocracy at the end of WWI, follow it up with an examination of the 1919 Spartacist Uprising, and then look at the foundation of the Weimar Republic itself, which included some SERIOUS constitutional flaws that Hitler ended up exploiting. Then you need to look at the history of Weimar Germany itself, and the period in the early 1930s leading up to Hitler becoming Chancellor. There are two books on this subject that are pretty good: The Hitler Myth by Ian Kershaw, and Hitler's Thirty Days to Power by H.A. Turner. Pretty fascinating stuff, and rather chilling, too.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Why don't we just drop the religious discussion and move on to talking about what sci fi does in social satire and social criticism, because talking about religion is just going to get this topic locked.

So ANYWAY, there are many authors who used their sci fi as social critisizm. Such as Bradbury, Asimov, Heinline, Bova, Vonnegut, and so so so many more.

In 'The Naked Sun' Asimov uses an idea from Plato's Republic, which I was going on about earlier - the idea of the state removing the children from the parents. Asimov makes the parents very happy with the idea - even the mention of the word 'baby' is of total repugnance to them. It's great because he takes the conventional societal taboo of sex and then extends that to the resulting baby. The obscene babies and children are all kept out of sight till they reach decent adulthood. Great book.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Solo114, you gotta read J.P Stern's 'Hitler and the People' - one of the most incredible dissections of how Hitler rose, and of the strange vacuity at the centre of Nazi ideology, encapsulated in the fact that after Hitler was dead, none of the surviving Nazis could really put a finger on just what the hell it was that they'd thought they'd been aiming at all that time... Stern concludes there was at the centre of it only Hitler's whim, and at the centre of that, pure nihilism, expressed best by the image of a bullet entering a human head. Once that whim was extinguished - by that very bullet - everyone seems to have woken from some bizarre delusion. This is the picture Stern puts forward. Very interesting analysis, worth a look...

 

[Darklighter]

Solo114, you gotta read J.P Stern's 'Hitler and the People' - one of the most incredible dissections of how Hitler rose, and of the strange vacuity at the centre of Nazi ideology, encapsulated in the fact that after Hitler was dead, none of the surviving Nazis could really put a finger on just what the hell it was that they'd thought they'd been aiming at all that time... Stern concludes there was at the centre of it only Hitler's whim, and at the centre of that, pure nihilism, expressed best by the image of a bullet entering a human head. Once that whim was extinguished - by that very bullet - everyone seems to have woken from some bizarre delusion. This is the picture Stern puts forward. Very interesting analysis, worth a look...

I'd be interested to read exactly how he makes a convincing argument to arrive at that conclusion. Hitler was tricky this much is obvious, however the post Hitler moral clarity....seems like an excuse. I will be reading this book.:thumbsup

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

I'd be interested to read exactly how he makes a convincing argument to arrive at that conclusion. Hitler was tricky this much is obvious, however the post Hitler moral clarity....seems like an excuse. I will be reading this book.:thumbsup

Yeah, my brief summary really doesn't do justice to the intricacies of Stern's arguments. I didn't mean to suggest a moral clarity appeared (though some postwar German literature such as 'Dog Years' by Gunther Grass implies this took place) - rather a sudden inability to express what the aim of Nazism had in fact been...

 

[ReaverReject]

But you do feel Verhoeven had a positive view of his fascistic society? I rather think it was the opposite. Seems to be an attitude you can trace back to Robocop, the tone of which was very, very similar to the Judge Dredd comics of the late 70s and 80s, of which the writers now say they were making satirical social commentary on the right wing government of Thatcher, projecting a caricature of that 200 years into the future.

I didn't mean that Verhoeven WANTED us to believe futuristic fascist states were positive, only that he portrayed them that way to evoke our reactions and teach us lessons, just as Ron Jones painted The Third Wave movement as positive until he shocked his followers into realizing who their "political leader" was.

Then why did you? I'm beginning to see the point of your thread. Your thinly veiled comments about the new administration in USA, by hiding it in a somewhat poor attempt at making it about movies.

You are wrong. Why would I deliberately want to start a thread that I knew would be locked down? If 99% of my posts refer to sci-fi and 1% hints at current political parallels, then I beg your pardon - it will not happen again...

NEXT!

GREAT discussion so far, guys!!! :thumbsup

RR

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

Right, gotcha. Sorry!