Exedge/Greg Parker

[synasp]

What the hell is going on here.? We're defending @#$%.bags now?

Gavidoc: In the past Exedge thread, you gave the excuse that Greg "found religion." Now you retract this excuse, claiming it is not the case. Now the excuse is "Greg got a C&D" instead.

What's with the conflicting stories? Why are you covering up for Exedge?

What's your level of involvement with Greg's business?

You, sir, owe all those who got scammed--as well as the general morality/ethics of the community--an explanation as to why you are defending your buddy.



When I start a project, I take the gamble I could be screwed over--not my customers. This is business and personal ethics. You can't steal people's money and run away. It tends to be illegal as well as unethical. Do you need an explanation of why it's unethical?

 

[Gytheran]

Originally posted by synasp@Feb 10 2006, 03:03 PM
We're defending @#$%.bags now?

Now? :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[synasp]

Originally posted by Gytheran@Feb 10 2006, 03:26 PM
Now? :lol :lol :lol :lol

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Good point, but that doesn't mean we have to allow it to continue.

I, for one, would like some answers...

 

[Rodann]

Gav, thanks for the explanation. Now I can finally put a reason to Greg's dropping off the planet. I knew Jeff's shop was in trouble, but since they helped Tim screw ME over, I couldn't care less. They still have parts I had them make, but I'm not paying for. But that explains a lot. Just wish he could have returned my calls and notes left in his door.

As for not getting money back, guys, you have to understand that this is not a "business". I don't know why people here constantly use phrases like "customer service" and "refund". These are things companies can afford to do, not Greg, not me. This is just fans making stuff. We are not MR. We pay for things out of pocket, or with prepays, and hope all goes well. If Greg got a C&D, then there was no way he could recoup that money. At the time, he was just starting a family, and complaining about needing money. The parts were made by the shop, they can't be UNmade. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be able to refund imaginary funds, either.

And let's face it, how much does he REALLY owe individuals? $20? $50? maybe $100? I know a guy in the UK who ripped me off for $365. There's a guy in Australia who took me for $275. And there's a guy in Florida who took me and 18 others for $1000 EACH. You think it's easy to just "refund" everybody Greg owes? Hell, I owe around $10,000 in credit card debt. By your account, I should just be able to "work that out". Unfortunately, with car payments, a mortgage, utilities, etc..............I simply CAN'T. And it is entirely unreasonable to expect Greg to just pull the $4,000, he supposedly owes all together, out of his arse.

As for his lack of communication, well...........knowing Greg like I did, and now knowing what REALLY happened, I can tell you this- He was probably too ASHAMED to show his face. We swore we'd never end up like Jedi135, and then this goes and happens. Now this all makes sense.

Originally posted by synasp@Feb 10 2006, 04:03 PM
Gavidoc: In the past Exedge thread, you gave the excuse that Greg "found religion." Now you retract this excuse, claiming it is not the case. Now the excuse is "Greg got a C&D" instead.

What's with the conflicting stories? Why are you covering up for Exedge?

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Whoa, there. Slow down, cowboy. THIS is the uninformed "lynch mob" mentality Gav is talking about.................You've got two different revisionist misconceptions in the same question:

First off, I was the one who mentioned Greg's religious overtones three years ago, with comments from him like "this hobby is evil". NOT Gav.


Secondly, I NEVER said he suddenly "found religion". That is the misquoted SLANT the RPF put on it, thinking he suddenly BECAME religious. He was already religious. Gav may have repeated what I said, but I've been seeing the "he found religion" quotes both here, and at TDH, and it's NOT what I said. Funny how people distort things just because they're angry.

And "defending dirtbags"? I can think of a few ACTUAL dirtbags who are rabidly defended on other forums, hell they're even ADMINS. But Greg-? A dirtbag? Sorry, but no. He got a C&D, and because he's always tried to do the right thing, he's probably felt like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Can't produce, or he's legally and financially screwed......can't refund, or he's financially screwed. Other guys- like GF for example- thumb their noses at a C&D and get ANOTHER one. That's what Greg feared most- becoming one of those guys out for a buck.

Ironically, if he WERE one of those guys, he would have made enough of a profit off YOU guys, to be able to AFFORD some sort of compensation. But hey, screw HIM, right?

 

[Funky]

Hey guys. My comment about Greg "finding religion" was just something I heard from a few people in passing. I personally have nothing against Greg. I once purchased something from him and he came through, no problems, so I meant no disrespect to him or anyone else. Like I said, it was just a rumor and I didn't mean it to come off as derrogatory (sp?). If anyone wants me to remove that from my previous post, just let me know and I'll do so promptly.

 

[evpi50]

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[Treadwell]

Rodann, there is no "slant" or "distort(ing) things when they are angry". It's perfectly understandable to confuse "already religious" and "recently religious" after three friggin' years.

Moreover, I remember the "recent" aspect of that thread, too. You were a participant in that thread. I don't recall you making this correction at the time.

Even so, you brought it to the attention of the RPF (thank you for that correction, BTW) that Greg, after all that time participating and contributing to the hobby, had suddenly proclaimed it was evil for religious reasons. Whether or not he was already religious, this change of attitude was sudden, so I don't see the point in splitting this hair.

It's great an all that Greg was so afraid of becoming one of the bad guys, but if he was so concerned about it he could've swallowed a little pride and filled us in on what was going on. But he just stopped replying to anyone. That isn't embarassment, that's plain rude. And irresponsible. People here don't have crystal balls; what else were we to conclude after he clammed up with our money? The individual amounts isn't the point.

At the time, you, like Gav, like the rest of us, were befuddled by his sudden abandonment of his customers*. Now you, like Gav, are covering for him.

What the heck is going on here?.



*(Yes, CUSTOMERS. He took our money in exchange for promised goods. We are his customers, period.)

 

[vaderdarth]

There is always the good ole fashioned "show up at his house and collect your $$". I promise you that if he'd kept my hard earned money just because he'd received a C&D letter as his sole excuse.............He'd be getting a personal visit from me.

Stealing is stealing no matter what a group of LFL lawyers have to say to the thief. I can promise you that being a Christian, I would do everything in my power until the end of my days to return the $$ I'd received from customers in the event that I saw no way to ever come thru on the product they paid for. Anyone can understand that the money all went into the product and that the product might have been confiscated by LFL...........but there is absolutely nothing stopping the guy from making good one on the refunds one CUSTOMER at a time. A little humility goes a long way with me. A complete lack of communication and refusal to even try to make it right..........is inexcusable.

Dave

 

[evpi50]

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[synasp]

Originally posted by Funky Jedi@Feb 10 2006, 06:30 PM
Like I said, it was just a rumor...

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You heard right. It's not just a rumor. It was the excuse offered as to why Greg took off with our money. But please disregard it, because that wasn't the truth--but this time it's the truth. A-ho. It's the C&D that told Greg to steal people's money, not the other excuse. This time it's legit, so hey, no worries. As long as someone says "C&D" it's okay to screw people over. :thumbsup

Note to self: Offer a lot of products peple want. Take their money. Run away. Get a friend to say it was a C&D. Then it'll be okay.

Then it'll be okay. Then it'll be okay...

Originally posted by Rodann@Feb 10 2006, 05:52 PM
As for not getting money back, guys, you have to understand that this is not a "business".

Oooooh okay, I'm really sorry then for wanting my money back. All this time I figured, "hey, people shouldn't steal from others." What an idiot I am...

We pay for things out of pocket, or with prepays, and hope all goes well.  If Greg got a C&D, then there was no way he could recoup that money.

If you start a project, you sure as hell better 1) deliver products or 2) refund money. You are the one taking the risk in producing a run. You extend this risk onto yourself thinking you will make off better at the end (for profit or fame). In a Free Market, no one forces you to do this. Greg willingly started a project, then screwed everyone over. It is his personal responsibility to 1) deliver products or 2) refund money.

What the hell happened to personal accountability?. It has nothing to do with following corporate practice, or selling on E-Bay, or selling to a buddy. You have a personal obligation to fulfill your end of the bargain. Otherwise you have imposed costs onto others. You have violated the fundamental charter of society (willing social cooperation).

Jim, you're a nice guy for empathizing with Greg, but it is no one's right to make excuses for him. I hope this Stockholm Syndrome wont spread.

Personal accountability, guys. Murderers and rapists don't have it. I hope we do.

At the time, he was just starting a family, and complaining about needing money.

Then don't extend this risk onto yourself if you know there's a damn good chance you could screw your family over. Greg knew this and still went ahead with the project. He got screwed, and decided to bend all of us over and make us take it in the $#@ for him. Sorry, but I'm not willing to prostrate myself for him.

And let's face it, how much does he REALLY owe individuals?  $20?  $50?  maybe $100?  I know a guy in the UK who ripped me off for $365.  There's a guy in Australia who took me for $275.  And there's a guy in Florida who took me and 18 others for $1000 EACH.

OOooh sweet. As long as I steal in increments of $20 or $50, I'll be fiiiine. I get it now. Okay, I'm going to go to the bank--I'll be right back....

Come on...

And it is entirely unreasonable to expect Greg to just pull the $4,000, he supposedly owes all together, out of his arse.

I know, I know... This I agree with. We should just take his screw up into our collective arses. But really, you go first...

He was probably too ASHAMED to show his face.

I feel terrible asking for my money back now...

oh wait.

First off, I was the one who mentioned Greg's religious overtones three years ago, with comments from him like "this hobby is evil".  NOT Gav.

A few people have said Gav was the one who said it. This is what I tend to remember as well. If this is not the case, then I apologize to Gav--Gav, I'm sorry for that.

That aside, we stil have conflicting excuses for a thief.

He got a C&D, and because he's always tried to do the right thing, he's probably felt like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

How about being stuck between delivering products or returning people's money? That's a much nicer place to be. A rock and hard place... that's rough. But props and cash? Niiice.

Can't produce, or he's legally and financially screwed......can't refund, or he's financially screwed.

Personal accountability, my friend. It's no individual's fault for Greg's misfortune than Greg himself. It was his will alone that set his mind in motion to offer the props. It was his will alone that had him take people's money. It was his will alone that he came to the enlightened conclusion that keeping people's money was better than doing what's ethical. He took the easy path--the wrong path.

 

[synasp]

That's what Greg feared most- becoming one of those guys out for a buck.

Well he's got $56.50 of my bucks. A couple thousand of other people's. It doesn't seem to bother him very much...

Ironically, if he WERE one of those guys, he would have made enough of a profit off YOU guys, to be able to AFFORD some sort of compensation.  But hey, screw HIM, right?

YES. We agree on something. Screw him. He has no problems screwing us. He would have needed to charge more to make a bigger profit. Some people would have opted to not buy. This is all Free Market dynamics at work. Greg broke the rules, and people continue to make excuses for him.

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by Treadwell@Feb 10 2006, 10:17 PM
It's great an all that Greg was so afraid of becoming one of the bad guys, but if he was so concerned about it he could've swallowed a little pride and filled us in on what was going on. But he just stopped replying to anyone. That isn't embarassment, that's plain rude. And irresponsible. People here don't have crystal balls; what else were we to conclude after he clammed up with our money? The individual amounts isn't the point.

At the time, you, like Gav, like the rest of us, were befuddled by his sudden abandonment of his customers*. Now you, like Gav, are covering for him.

What the heck is going on here?.



*(Yes, CUSTOMERS. He took our money in exchange for promised goods. We are his customers, period.)

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Jay,

You are right. At the time I also had NO IDEA what happened. Then one day while I was cleaning out my garage, I found an old package that had Greg's address on it. I thought, what the hell, I'll write him a real letter. Couldn't remember the last time I did that. In it I included a photo of my daughter (last time I had talked to Greg, my wife wasn't even pregnant) and my phone number. About a week later I got a call from him.

Even in our phone conversation, he didn't even want to tell me what had happened. He was that ashamed. I had to force what happened out of him.

This all happened 3 years ago so please forgive me as I try to recall all that transpired.

IIRC, it happened 3/4 of the way through the Kamino Dart project. Darts had been machined, etc. Jeff (the owner of the machine shop) calls Greg to tell him he just received a call from a lawyer. Greg, the same day receives a letter from LFL.

As part of the agreement to prevent a lawsuit, the biggest part involved NO mention of it (the letter) to any prop collecting community. That's why no one ever heard from Greg. That's why he disappeared. LFL was threatening a lawsuit of a HUGE sum of money if Greg notified the community. He didn't even tell me he got a C&D.

Yet, when on the phone a guy you call a friend tells you that the license holder isn't happy with him, he gets a call from a LFL lawyer and he isn't supposed to talk about it, you put 2 and 2 together and don't get 5.

As for covering for him, nope.

Just get pissed off when a good man is dragged through the mud as a result of something he had no control over and that tied his hands.

This was a classic "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Do you tell your little customers and piss off a lumbering giant, or do you do what the giant says and piss off the little customers?

 

[synasp]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Feb 10 2006, 08:41 PM
Do you tell your little customers and piss off a lumbering giant, or do you do what the giant says and piss off the little customers?

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I tell my little customers I got screwed, but they will get their money back because that's the right thing to do.

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by Gytheran@Feb 10 2006, 03:13 PM
So Gav, what type of business arrangement did you have with Greg for these items he sold that YOU designed?

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Our agreement had many angles.

#1. We were buds. He had the capabilities to machine parts for low cost and I had the ability to create more accurate cad data then what he was using.

#2. We both wanted to provide cost effective parts to the masses with very little markup and no gimmick.

#3. We did it for the fun of the hobby and to add some really cool pieces to our collections.

#4. In return for my cad work (which to be honest with you guys isn't hard) I'd get a free prop which I would then finish up myself and sell to make my money if I wanted.

#5. I wanted to royally @#$%. with the profit margin of a couple vendors at the time who were charging outrageous markups on their product because they felt they could. Supply and demand was in full effect so I looked for a way to screw with their demand to lower their prices.


In a nutshell, we were crusaders who hated to see the little guy getting screwed by vendors who would charge a 100% markup. There was a lot of that going on at the time. Not so much anymore, but it was bad back then. From that, a friendship grew. Perfect example Joe, who else do you think could offer a GK bracket for $50 or was it $75? MOst people charged $75 or a freaking flash hider at the time.

That was what our business arrangement was.

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by synasp+Feb 10 2006, 10:46 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(synasp @ Feb 10 2006, 10:46 PM)</div>

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@Feb 10 2006, 08:41 PM
Do you tell your little customers and piss off a lumbering giant, or do you do what the giant says and piss off the little customers?

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I tell my little customers I got screwed, but they will get their money back because that's the right thing to do.

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[/b]

Like I said, which do you do? Tell the customers and piss off the giant or appease the giant and piss off the customers?

If you were personally told if you mentioned anything to anyone that LFL would sue you for $100,000 plus punitive (I made that number up), would you really give a rat's ass about $4,000 owed to other people?

 

[synasp]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Feb 10 2006, 09:02 PM
Like I said, which do you do? Tell the customers and piss off the giant or appease the giant and piss off the customers?

If you were personally told if you mentioned anything to anyone that LFL would sue you for $100,000 plus punitive (I made that number up), would you really give a rat's ass about $4,000 owed to other people?

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Sorry, my sarcasm made what I said unclear. It's hard to control sometimes.

What I meant to say is that even with a C&D in place, it is not entirely a zero sum game. There is a third option you aren't mentioning.

I can appease both parties, screwing only myself. I say to LFL, "sorry... I will do as you say." Then I say to my customers, "Sorry guys, I'm not able to delliver, but thank you for your patience as I try to refund everyone as I can."

Then skip meals if I have to to get every cent back.

But are you saying LFL told Greg he can't pay people back their money? Because that's absurd.

 

[vaderdarth]

Originally posted by gavidoc+Feb 10 2006, 10:02 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gavidoc @ Feb 10 2006, 10:02 PM)</div>

Originally posted by synasp@Feb 10 2006, 10:46 PM
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@Feb 10 2006, 08:41 PM
Do you tell your little customers and piss off a lumbering giant, or do you do what the giant says and piss off the little customers?

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I tell my little customers I got screwed, but they will get their money back because that's the right thing to do.

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Like I said, which do you do? Tell the customers and piss off the giant or appease the giant and piss off the customers?

If you were personally told if you mentioned anything to anyone that LFL would sue you for $100,000 plus punitive (I made that number up), would you really give a rat's ass about $4,000 owed to other people?

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[/b]

Gav, that is utter bull crap. He doesn't have to say a thing about the mess to the customers...........he just sends a freakin check to them. It ain't rocket science. Is doing the right thing that doggone foreign to you????

Dave

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by vaderdarth@Feb 10 2006, 11:10 PM
Gav,  that is utter bull crap.  He doesn't have to say a thing about the mess to the customers...........he just sends a freakin check to them.  It ain't rocket science.  Is doing the right thing that doggone foreign to you????

Dave

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Dave,

Where in any of my posts on this matter did I say I agreed with the way he handled things?

There shouldn't be and if there is, hey, I'm human like everyone else.

 

[synasp]

Originally posted by gavidoc@Feb 10 2006, 09:14 PM
Dave,

Where in any of my posts on this matter did I say I agreed with the way he handled things?

There shouldn't be and if there is, hey, I'm human like everyone else.

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Then you agree Greg owes people money, and should pay them back ASAP?

 

[gavidoc]

Originally posted by synasp+Feb 10 2006, 11:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(synasp @ Feb 10 2006, 11:17 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-gavidoc

@Feb 10 2006, 09:14 PM
Dave,

Where in any of my posts on this matter did I say I agreed with the way he handled things?

There shouldn't be and if there is, hey, I'm human like everyone else.

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Then you agree Greg owes people money, and should pay them back ASAP?

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[/b]

I believe in the old monniker: Actions speak louder then words.

Here's a portion of a post I made to my good friend "O Johnny Boy" on another forum.

What would I have done if it happened to me? Well, in a way it did. FedEx Ground @#$%.ed up a shippment of pommels big time while ont he way back from the plater.

Instead of running with the money and telling eveyone to go kiss off, I got a lawyer, sued FedEx, won, and used the money that was left after his fees to remake the pommels for everyone. Those who wanted a refund got one.

All in all, that project took over a year to complete and ended well after I quit collecting.

So spare the conspiracy theory commentary. Really gets old man.