Elstree Vader - What do we have?

[GINO]

I'm just telling you what I know.

.

 

[lambotour]

Its getting hard to read this thread for all the editing.

That edit feature is a wonderful thing. Isn't it?:rolleyes

 

[lambotour]

But what makes you think that every ROTJ helmet is a leftover ESB? For every production they have had to make new costumes (ie: TK costumes for ROTJ) so just because the TK helmets were carried over from ANH to ESB doesn't mean that happened with Vader helmets for ESB to ROTJ. The reason I say this is that there are many more differences between an ESB helmet and ROTJ helmet than just paint or finishing work. It makes no sense to rework each helmet for ROTJ when one can simply make a mold of an ESB, get a casting, refine that master casting, remold it and then make copies. We could start a new thread about the finer differences between ESB and ROTJ helmets...and I think I could argue that each helmet/mask wasn't reworked independently.

I will agree that the chin vents could have been individually cut out, the mounting rings added independently, etc. and yes that widow's peak at the end of ROTJ prior to the reveal is an ESB widow's peak but it could simply be a leftover ESB helmet. And one can see during ROTJ that different helmets (domes) were matched up with different masks at different times...I'm basing that on the widow's peak area and the shape of the central ridge (or strip).

I know you have always said that ESB and ROTJ helmets are identical apart from the finishing but that just isn't the case and I don't see why they would individually modify each mask and each helmet for ROTJ.

BTW, the funeral pyre mask even has ANH tusks on it.

Agreed. You see a mix-match of ANH in ESB, ESB in ROTJ and even ANH in ROTJ. There is no definitive answer.

 

[Darth Niob]

Agreed. You see a mix-match of ANH in ESB, ESB in ROTJ and even ANH in ROTJ. There is no definitive answer.

Seems like they mixed the parts not only on Tours and the Lucas Archieves. Makes it even harder to get the right infos about the different helmets used in the movies:rolleyes

 

[SithLord]

Well all I will say is that these comparison show just some of the things that indicate that the ROTJ helmets do not appear to me to be ESB helmets. It is not likely that differences like these were engineered into the helmets and these differences are consistent between respective ESB and ROTJ helmets.

Apart from the eyebrow curvature, the obvious differences in the helmets (domes)...look how soft the transition lines are between the crown and eyebrow flaring of the helmets and the eyebrows themselves stick out more. Why the center ridge/widow's peak on this particular ROTJ helmet is not as reworked as on others could be that because it was a stunt helmet. But regardless it doesn't look like a leftover ESB helmet. And that is not an ESB stunt mask either.

This comparison shows again just how different the ESB and ROTJ helmets are. The softness of the eyebrow flaring, the trim of the widow's peak area. Yes the overall shape is there and yes the ROTJ helmet (dome) clearly came from an ESB (not ANH), but there's no way that this particular ROTJ helmet is an ESB leftover. If it was, then the center ridge of the helmet would be individually reworked for this one casting and that would be a waste of time.

Here again you see the difference in the shape of the eyebrow flaring of the helmet between the two...also the right cheek tends to sag a bit more on the ROTJ than the ESB.

Sure there will be differences in pulls among ESB helmets, but then why do differences like these only appear on ROTJ helmets? I just don't seem them as being identical, nor do the differences appear to be from reworking, but rather from remolding/recasting of ESB helmet(s).

But if there is a specific ROTJ helmet that is known to be derived from a screen-used production ESB helmet, let's hear the details.

 

[Darth Niob]

As i said that the ROTJ derivates from an ESB i meant it in that way that the basis was an ESB helmet. If they reworked the ESB helmets or just make a cast of one of them to make the viewable changes i cant say for sure. But it does make more sense that they have casted the ESB to get a master on which all the rework was done to get the screen used ROTJ lids.

 

[GINO]

But they didn't make new lids for ROTJ.

It doesn't seem like I'm going to be able to convince you of this and I can't tell you how I know so I don't know what else to say. Don't want the debate to turn into an argument so I'll stop.

.

 

[Darth Niob]

Why you arent able to tell? Would be interesting for us all. Just to say it is like it is doesnt really help :confused

 

[vadermania]

... and I can't tell you how I know so I don't know what else to say. ...

.

...not again...:sick

 

[Cyberman]

Theres usually very good reasons not to divulge information of this kind...for example the person who gave the casting may not want to be libeled or his reputation damaged within the "industry"

Why you arent able to tell? Would be interesting for us all. Just to say it is like it is doesnt really help :confused

 

[Darth Niob]

Theres usually very good reasons not to divulge information of this kind...for example the person who gave the casting may not want to be libeled or his reputation damaged within the "industry"

Which casting do you mean? I thought Gino meant an information about the origins of the Jedi helmets. Perhaps i understand something wrong?

 

[skynet]

But they didn't make new lids for ROTJ.

It doesn't seem like I'm going to be able to convince you of this and I can't tell you how I know so I don't know what else to say. Don't want the debate to turn into an argument so I'll stop.

.

This is ridiculous...honestly.

This is a community and it's purpose is to share and gain information.

Don't get me wrong Gino, this is NOT about any of your helmets/mystery origins/authentic master castings and your secret source which you don't want to betray...so don't play the same game here. :rolleyes

I tell you that I have a 1st gen. casting of an ANH screenused helmet and I know what the original mounting system really was.

Well, I can't show any pics because I promised to my source. I can't give you more further information because that would reveal my source...I just tell you that I have the casting. Seems that I can't convince you, so I stop here because I don't want this debate turn into an argument. :lol

 

[jts1031]

Well, I can't show any pics because I promised to my source. I can't give you more further information because that would reveal my source...I just tell you that I have the casting. Seems that I can't convince you, so I stop here because I don't want this debate turn into an argument. :lol

And you think mocking him is going to somehow change his mind?

SithLord, I look at those pictures, and I see the red lines indicating specifically what you are looking at, but I'm just not seeing that much of a difference between them, if at all. I'm not saying the difference isn't there, just that I'm not spotting it. For you guys to catch all these small discrepancies is pretty impressive.

 

[defstartrooper]

Has to be authentic i mean there's no possible way anyone can sculpt that spot on can they ? so it must be from an authentic source.

 

[ob1al]

Two casts from the same mold will have slight differences, wall thicknesses, other irregularities and so on. More cast-to-cast differences will ensue when the cast is trimmed, cleaned up and painted.

I think that makes it hard to say for certain that something does not come from a production used mold or cast. Even 'tells' can be replicated.

Most Vader helmets are recasts of finished pieces - each with an individual paintjob, each seperately trimmed and each with slight discepancies from one another.

The only authentic, ultimate Vader helmet is the one's worn by the actors on screen. All others are just replicas, some better some worse. Some intended to replicate screen grabs of the real prop as closely as possible, in minute detail, others more idealised versions with innacurate detailing. The exact same helmet can look totally different depending upon the trimming, paintjob, lenses, dome position and so on.

That's what makes it hard to compare real prop screen grabs and replica/recast comparisons, not to mention the different angles, lighting conditions, distance from lense etc. etc......

It's a bit of a minefield really. Just thinking out loud here....

 

[skynet]

And you think mocking him is going to somehow change his mind?

Why do you think I want to change his mind?I

I'm not offended by his comments, and it's nothing about likes or dislikes of a certain forum member. I actually don't know him personally, so I can't say what kind of guy he is. I don't think something negative when I think about him...why should I.

BUT...

If I do the same thing over and over, I have to expect that reactions like this will come in the future. I don't want to pick on him, I don't want to change his mind, perhaps he has good reason (I'm sure he has) for it.

I just don't understand the sence of it...

If I have secret information or really inside information about something, that is so delicate that I can't really share because that would reveal my source so I perhaps would loose it, then I don't join in any discussion regarding the subject I have the information about....

Because if all I have to say would be "It's like this and that but I can't tell you why this is the truth"...It would be a waste of MY time to do so!

If I was GINO, and I can't say certain things because of the matter of protection, then I simply DON'T CHIME IN.

Why say something when I am not able to show proof??? I would have to expect that people are asking silly questions or are cynical...simply to avoid that I would not chime in certain discussions.

Oherwise I have to deal with all these. Simple as that.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

If I was GINO, and I can't say certain things because of the matter of protection, then I simply DON'T CHIME IN.

So, knowing that the information you have is correct and people who think they know are putting forth wrong info, would it be better to speak up, even if you cannot reveal your sources, or would you rather sit idly by and let people believe things that are incorrect?

 

[skynet]

Two casts from the same mold will have slight differences, wall thicknesses, other irregularities and so on. More cast-to-cast differences will ensue when the cast is trimmed, cleaned up and painted.

I think that makes it hard to say for certain that something does not come from a production used mold or cast. Even 'tells' can be replicated.

Most Vader helmets are recasts of finished pieces - each with an individual paintjob, each seperately trimmed and each with slight discepancies from one another.

The only authentic, ultimate Vader helmet is the one's worn by the actors on screen. All others are just replicas, some better some worse. Some intended to replicate screen grabs of the real prop as closely as possible, in minute detail, others more idealised versions with innacurate detailing. The exact same helmet can look totally different depending upon the trimming, paintjob, lenses, dome position and so on.

That's what makes it hard to compare real prop screen grabs and replica/recast comparisons, not to mention the different angles, lighting conditions, distance from lense etc. etc......

It's a bit of a minefield really. Just thinking out loud here....

+++copy that :thumbsup

I'm far away from wanting a direct cast from an original.

Two reasons why: I don't have the money (at least now) and I don't have the connections.

I want something that has "the look". Of course a Rubies Supreme mod can do the job too, but I always wanted something better. I'm happy with the lid, although some clear visible features ARE off.

I hope to get my hands on a GH armor for my life size Vader and that's it. That would be my wish or my hope and to complete the whole thing.

When he stands in my home cinema in all it's glory, it wouldn't be near as good as one of GINO's - but I'll like it and that's all that counts.

Only wanted to have some background information about something that will stay for a long time in my home to entertain my family, friends and me.

Thanks Thomas for giving such good information about the Elstree cast.

 

[skynet]

So, knowing that the information you have is correct and people who think they know are putting forth wrong info, would it be better to speak up, even if you cannot reveal your sources, or would you rather sit idly by and let people believe things that are incorrect?

First: I don't think that GINO is the only person on earth who is 'in the know'.

Second: If I can't SHOW people WHY...how much is my comment worth?

People will still think 'ok...so what's correct then? we have 10 claims but no proofs'.

And that's just the same as simple don't give the info.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

I kind of appreciate nudges in the right direction. Like I've said elsewhere, the research is still the same as when the guys in the know got it for themselves. I see some of what is offered as a push in the right direction.