Dune (part 2)

Yeah, one of the really interesting things that Frank Herbert does with his first 4 Dune books is to set up these contrasting messages about messiah-figures and the concept of "godhead."

On the one hand, he presents them as things to be distrusted, and highlights all manner of awful things that people do when others give them power and ask them to "Fix it for us." The antidote for this is, in a sense, human self-actualization and ingenuity. (I would also argue that you could fit collective efforts into this framework, instead of just saying "everyone always has to go it alone.") The illustrations for this are (1) Paul and the jihad that he unleashes (it's referred to as such in the books, by the way -- that's not me imposing value judgments on it), and (2) Leto II and his oppressive reign. These characters are shown unleashing incredible horror and pain and suffering on the universe and, well, that's bad.

On the other hand, at the same time that he is essentially denouncing godhead and messianic figures, Herbert...arguably proves both Paul and Leto II as having been correct, and as doing what they do because the alternative is human extinction, and both witness this in their visions. Ultimately, Paul doesn't have the capacity to go quite far enough, but he sets the stage for Leto to take on the task himself.

The Children of Dune miniseries plays with this some, showing Leto as a kind of heroic figure making a grand sacrifice...but eliding the fact that the sacrifice he makes is that he'll turn himself into both a literal and figurative monster and will brutally repress humanity for something like 3000 years, essentially to "toughen it up" so that it will be ready for what follows his death and the human diaspora, and then what comes after that.

So, on the one hand, beware of messiahs! They're bad! They do bad stuff and other people do worse stuff in their name! On the other hand, these two messianic figures did awful, awful things...and may have saved humanity in the process. The introduction of prescience into the equation also screws around with this. Assuming your knowledge of the future is accurate (and the books never call this into question, nor do any of the other adaptations), you can know your actions are justified. But Herbert doesn't take the additional step of raising the specter of madness -- that maybe Paul and Leto are just friggin' nutso and their visions are just their own paranoid delusions.

Dune Part 2 sort of teases elements of this with Jessica's transformation after taking the Water of Life, and how crazy she seems. Plus the idea that Alia, a fetus, can communicate telepathically with both Jessica and Paul. Some of this can be played off as saying "Well, that's what happens when you 're pregnant and take the Water of Life." But it could also be used as a way to inject real doubt into the whole notion of the "Golden Path" that features in the next three books.
I think the jist of the precautionary tale, is that MANUFACTURED messiahs, established only to protect power & grant greater power, are not to be trusted.

I believe Paul, & ultimately his progeny made choices that may have aligned with the Bene Geseret's INITIAL plans, at the beginning, but ultimately took their manufactured Messiah completely out of their control.

Ultimately, you could say it was an example of individual love overcoming the 'System', because if Jessica had given birth to a daughter, she would've been wed to Feyd, but instead, she loved Leto so much, she disobeyed the Bene Geseret & gave him the son he wanted. It was simply ironic that generations of planning & scheming by the Bene Geseret, & the backstabbing of the Emperor & Harkonnen, all to solidify their power over humanity, was ultimately the cause of their eventual demise, all because of love.
 
Saw today, happy enough with it as I was with part 1.

I sure like those beam weapons, a rare display of how it should work I've not seen since Congo, why didn't they use them on the troops with a few sweeps of that beam from a distance, instead of up close bloody sword fighting? Something to do with shields?
 
Saw today, happy enough with it as I was with part 1.

I sure like those beam weapons, a rare display of how it should work I've not seen since Congo, why didn't they use them on the troops with a few sweeps of that beam from a distance, instead of up close bloody sword fighting? Something to do with shields?

Correct. When lasers come in contact with shields, the reaction causes an explosion of almost nuclear scale on both ends. So lasers are used very sparingly when it is known that shields will be in play.

But shields are used sparingly in the desert, because they always summon worms!
 
Watched part one for the first time last week, and just got out of the theater for part 2.

I read the book exactly once, approximately 30 years ago.

Visually arresting, well acted, and worth seeing in a theater just for the sound.

IIRC this film basically ends at the end of the first book, and having never read beyond that I don't have a frame of reference for whatever comes next. And just like the book, I don't like Paul (or anyone else) enough to feel like I need to see what happens next.

Glad I saw it. I will probably watch it again on disc at some point. But otherwise, probably done.
 
villeneuve pulls it of again...I mean the king is in the altogether act ! He doesn't need a shield generator, he's got an Auteur filmmaker cocoon that protects him from most ,on fear they won't be in the Arty pack anymore.2049 was a mess and Dune(s) are both tedious uninspiring waffle not worth numbing you backsides to watch(yes,I saw them ) I laughed when the characters used words like "Guys" and "Ok"... Not very Dune-like. My hats off to you mr. V for realising that if your seen as boutique yet mainstream your as good as Teflon !I did like the little desert mouse though,cute ears !
 
I think it's nice that folks got exited for this movie and enjoyed it...wasn't my thing, but to each his own! I know something as expansive as Dune is beyond my sustainable interest and thats after reading the books! I liked the 80s movie as it was simpler...Having said that, I'd have been on board if it had the look of the Animals as leaders video Red Miso...
 
Watched it last night and all I can say is what a gut punch....... Ok no I can say more... its an utterly amazing movie with a utterly gut wrenching heart breaking ending with a musical score that ultimately brought me to utter tears.
I was genuinely crying with tears flooding my face.

Its clear Denis isnt going the Hollywood happy ending here. Hes going the full tragedy theme. And it was genuinely sad to see the corruption of Paul take hold. He didnt want it. He had to go down that path, and once he drank the life water, it was all over... Im aware of how it goes in the books, but this film is already deviating from the books a little... Im interested to see where he takes it. But I don't think its going to end happy.
 
Watched it last night and all I can say is what a gut punch....... Ok no I can say more... its an utterly amazing movie with a utterly gut wrenching heart breaking ending with a musical score that ultimately brought me to utter tears.
I was genuinely crying with tears flooding my face.

Its clear Denis isnt going the Hollywood happy ending here. Hes going the full tragedy theme. And it was genuinely sad to see the corruption of Paul take hold. He didnt want it. He had to go down that path, and once he drank the life water, it was all over... Im aware of how it goes in the books, but this film is already deviating from the books a little... Im interested to see where he takes it. But I don't think its going to end happy.
Dave B did nothing in this movie, Tim C was rudderless and weak and Chris W as the emperor was the worst casting of the decade apart from his jungle book outing ! But as I said, if folks liked it, no problem !
 
Dave B did nothing in this movie, Tim C was rudderless and weak and Chris W as the emperor was the worst casting of the decade apart from his jungle book outing ! But as I said, if folks liked it, no problem !
You've already made it clear you didn't like this movie, and that's your opinion. But spouting unwarranted negativity at someone who really enjoyed it is pretty rude. If you have nothing nice to say, then maybe just keep it to yourself?
 
You've already made it clear you didn't like this movie, and that's your opinion. But spouting unwarranted negativity at someone who really enjoyed it is pretty rude. If you have nothing nice to say, then maybe just keep it to yourself?
Did you read the last part of my comment ? It clearly states that if folks enjoy it then that's great! Giving my assessment of the actors ect is something I'll always do while at the same time never casting unfavourable intent on anyone ! Robust difference of opinion is healthy ! ATB
 
I’m hearing people are upset that Duncan Idaho comes back?

I’m not familair with the books… is this a thing?
 
I’m hearing people are upset that Duncan Idaho comes

You've already made it clear you didn't like this movie, and that's your opinion. But spouting unwarranted negativity at someone who really enjoyed it is pretty rude. If you have nothing nice to say, then maybe just keep it to yourself?
I've been very open in my comment ,looks like any open debate or difference of opinion is a no no according to self appointed parameter setters...very Portland !
 
Dave B did nothing in this movie, Tim C was rudderless and weak and Chris W as the emperor was the worst casting of the decade apart from his jungle book outing ! But as I said, if folks liked it, no problem !
It is not a perfect movie, but it is a good interpretation of this big saga. And let me say this: I don't like Skeleton Crew, I find it childish and uninteresting, but I didn't post anything in that particular thread, as people are enthusiastic about it, and I decided I let them be...
 
It is not a perfect movie, but it is a good interpretation of this big saga. And let me say this: I don't like Skeleton Crew, I find it childish and uninteresting, but I didn't post anything in that particular thread, as people are enthusiastic about it, and I decided I let them be...
I get ya, but not giving you opinion because it goes against the group think grain only emboldened it ! We have the right to disagree no matter if it makes hurty feelings ! Debate is the corner stone of a free society...I said a while back, the DV version of Dune would be seen as un-criticiseable
based on his current favour with the deep thinkers and cafe gurus! The great unwashed only have nasty words according to their microcosm !!
 
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