Dune (part 2)

There was some editing stuff that felt weird to me... like when Paul is told to go out on a 2 week trek into the desert alone, is told about all the bad things to watch out for, then ends u hanging out with Chani for a bit and suddenly the next scene is both of them attacking a spice harvester with a bunch of other people. I guess his trek is over?

And when Paul goes to get the water of life, the lady tells him he cant, then suddenly shes in front of him with it in totally different clothes, like a different scene. If this was meant to imply he used The Voice on her, it was done really poorly compared to previous examples.
I noticed that too. It was especially weird given the film was so long, it wasn't like they couldn't fit in a little 2 minute montage of crossfaded scenes of Paul doing some Fremen things. Or even the old classic "3 weeks later". Absolutely no visual cues that any significant time had passed between scenes in the actual film.
 
Question for those who have seen it. I've heard of the new Dune 2 the story changes that were made from the original book (and subsequently the 1983 David Lynch version and the 2000 Sci-Fi mini series). Does this affect the flow of the film? Is it jarring?

To a point, a lot of the changes in story do not effect the overall flow.
But, there are changes that happen at the end, that really lean into the earlier changes in terrible ways. And other end of film changes that fundamentally change the outcome, and frankly undermines the whole point of the story. It's a real ******* travesty, to be honest.

I'm honestly shocked folks are happy with this. I'll share my range once there's a spoilers thread or something.
 
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Strikerkc glad to hear someone says this. I watched several spoiler reviews where they said how great it was and then listed all the changes and I could not believe it. I have read all the books multiple times (including the prequels, the pre-prequels, the school series, and the ones in between the original books) and I was shocked by all the changes from a director that "loves" the books.

Not trying to offend the people that like the movies, but they weren't for me.

 
I've seen it twice now, first in 70mm IMAX and then "LieMAX." Here are my thoughts—

My first viewing left me speechless, overwhelmed, and moved to tears. Stronger than its predecessor in many ways, Villeneuve takes his setup in Part One and runs with it. Some scenes knocked me on my ass, taking the air from my lungs with their prowess and intensity.

What makes this deeper and more intricate than Part One is the thematic resonance it’s able to explore on a micro & macro scale. With the table set and the pieces in place, Part Two is given room to examine the nuance of power, fanaticism, prophecy, and fate. It covers so much ground and yet still finds time for the quiet moments, slowing down to let us sit with the characters and investigate their relationships, beliefs, and perspectives. And when things get loud and the action kicks in, it’s spectacular.

Villeneuve is more loosely faithful yet still profoundly respectful of the source material, managing to make the story more impactful and elevating it beyond what Frank Herbert was able to do. All the deviations from the book made sense and felt right — I never questioned or took issue with any of them. Arguably, the most important alteration is shifting the tone of the ending from triumphant to supremely heartbreaking. This isn’t your standard hero’s journey.

Quite simply, this is monumental filmmaking. I am so fortunate to be alive to experience this artistic mastery and cannot wait for Villeneuve to conclude this trilogy with Messiah.
 
As two very casual fans, my wife and I went to see Part 2 today for my birthday, and we both enjoyed it. I think it was a little plot heavy for her because she had some questions in the car about how things connected, but it helped that we just rewatched Part 1 a few days ago. I enjoyed that entry as well, but my wife didn’t. The second entry was more riveting and engaging overall, and I think the action helped keep her attention as well.

On an interesting note, as we left the theatre two ladies in their 60’s were talking about the movie. One said she really didn’t think they’d be able to “wrap it all up” and then the movie ended. She said something along the lines of “just means there will be a third movie.” That reminded me of leaving the theatre after The Two Towers, where two guys in their 50’s had the exact same conversation!
 
Some artistic license can and should be taken when converting a book to a film but the issue always seems to be figuring out how much is too much. A lot of important elements can't be changed in around in a story while still maintaining the director/writer respected the source material. Villeneuve made a very conscious decision to drop, alter, and rearrange important elements, characters and plot points making these films very different from the original story. A lot of those differences stood out and detracted from the film. Villeneuve did respect tone, some characters (others not at all), setting and many of the visual elements. I found it easier to get through the film when I changed my perspective approaching it more as a "what if" story, almost like a high budget fan film, a loose interpretation. So loose it would better be served by naming it Denis Villeneuve's Interpretation of Dune.

It's a visually impressive, fun, exciting, entertaining, moving at times science fiction film. It's definitely better than much of what has come out as of late. Worth watching for those reasons but no Denis Villeneuve's story telling is not on par with Frank Herbert's. It's different which is interesting but is a far cry from an improvement on the original story. I'm glad that these films were made despite not jumping out of my chair with excitement about the results. The fan base will grow and more will be exposed to the genius of Herbert's writing as a result which is awesome. And there is one more film so hopefully that will be even better than the first two.
 
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The most hilarious “negative” review, that I have seen, calls Part 2 lacking, when compared to Zack Snyder’s Rebel Moon.

Oh yeah, and Lord of the Rings is equally “fatuous”.

Holy hilarity…

View attachment 1795918

Nothing in Dune is as good as Rebel Moon?!


WHAT?!

To each his own, but REALLY?!?!

And I WANTED to love Rebel Moon. I watched that trailer to death.


Anyway saw Dune 2 last night, and while I didn't love it as much as the first, as a whole it was great, and I've been watching essays on it all morning prepping for the next viewing.

Rebel Moon.... good god.
 
There was some editing stuff that felt weird to me... like when Paul is told to go out on a 2 week trek into the desert alone, is told about all the bad things to watch out for, then ends u hanging out with Chani for a bit and suddenly the next scene is both of them attacking a spice harvester with a bunch of other people. I guess his trek is over?

And when Paul goes to get the water of life, the lady tells him he cant, then suddenly shes in front of him with it in totally different clothes, like a different scene. If this was meant to imply he used The Voice on her, it was done really poorly compared to previous examples.

Agreed. I could FEEL where entire sequences were cut. Flower moon this movie! Split this one in two if you had to... there were clearly unintended time jumps.
 
Saw it last night in IMAX. Really enjoyed it.

The art direction remains stellar and in some instances was amped up for this film.

As has been noted, it deviates from the source material at some points. I thought, however, that the deviations worked really well within the context of this version of the story.

I think what I appreciated the most was that these deviations were done to explore themes that are very present in the original work, but also to really enhance your understanding of these characters as people, which is kind of missing from the original. There's a heightened quality to the original work that makes the people feel...less real, less grounded and thus somewhat alien. That's fine on the page. On film, though, I think it doesn't work well, and you see that on display in both prior versions (Lynch, and Sci-Fi Channel). There's an awkwardness and artificiality to the characters because they are sticking closer to the words of the book.

What I think Villeneuve's Dune 2 does is adhere more to the meaning of the book, and it does that in large part by grounding its characters. Towards that end, it rearranges elements of the story and alters others to help enhance the thematic cohesion and present the characters with situations that lead them down the path the story needs to go to convey that core meaning.

Herbert's book(s) is/are in some respects more complicated than what I think can be conveyed on film. That's just the nature of the different media, as between literature and cinema. You can do different things in literature than you can in cinema, and vice versa. I think Dune 2 is a fantastic adaptation of the literary version of Herbert's work to the cinematic medium and, much like the way that Mike Flanagan really gets how to adapt Stephen King to the screen, Villeneuve gets how to adapt Herbert.

I'm curious to see where Messiah (and/or Children, and/or God Emperor?) goes, whether it will actually showcase this bloody crusade that Muad'Dib is about to unleash upon the galaxy, or if -- like with the books -- we'll see him grappling with the aftermath. I suspect it'd be a mix of the two, with some visuals of the carnage, but otherwise not really spending a ton of time on it.

One of the interesting discussions I've found online is about Paul's nature. The Lynch version steers hard into the hero trope, where Paul valiantly avenges his House and father, and assumes his rightful place as Emperor and Kwizatz-Haderach. The Sci-Fi version does a bunch of this, but then upends it with the Children of Dune miniseries. Villeneuve's version...really does not paint Paul as a hero at all. Rather, he seems like a victim of destiny, and someone who very much is reluctant to take on the role set before him, but who cannot escape where his path leads him. Taken as part of a much larger work (namely the first four Dune novels), I think this is a terrific read of the character, and I think it would feed amazingly well into similar cinematic adaptations of the next 3 novels. We'll see where it goes, but I'm up for the ride.
 
Yeah... The tragedy of Paul's life seems to be lost on several of my buddies. He's NOT the hero from a classical standpoint, & the decisions he makes for the best will take millennia to pay off.

It's an incredible story all the way through.
 
Yeah, one of the really interesting things that Frank Herbert does with his first 4 Dune books is to set up these contrasting messages about messiah-figures and the concept of "godhead."

On the one hand, he presents them as things to be distrusted, and highlights all manner of awful things that people do when others give them power and ask them to "Fix it for us." The antidote for this is, in a sense, human self-actualization and ingenuity. (I would also argue that you could fit collective efforts into this framework, instead of just saying "everyone always has to go it alone.") The illustrations for this are (1) Paul and the jihad that he unleashes (it's referred to as such in the books, by the way -- that's not me imposing value judgments on it), and (2) Leto II and his oppressive reign. These characters are shown unleashing incredible horror and pain and suffering on the universe and, well, that's bad.

On the other hand, at the same time that he is essentially denouncing godhead and messianic figures, Herbert...arguably proves both Paul and Leto II as having been correct, and as doing what they do because the alternative is human extinction, and both witness this in their visions. Ultimately, Paul doesn't have the capacity to go quite far enough, but he sets the stage for Leto to take on the task himself.

The Children of Dune miniseries plays with this some, showing Leto as a kind of heroic figure making a grand sacrifice...but eliding the fact that the sacrifice he makes is that he'll turn himself into both a literal and figurative monster and will brutally repress humanity for something like 3000 years, essentially to "toughen it up" so that it will be ready for what follows his death and the human diaspora, and then what comes after that.

So, on the one hand, beware of messiahs! They're bad! They do bad stuff and other people do worse stuff in their name! On the other hand, these two messianic figures did awful, awful things...and may have saved humanity in the process. The introduction of prescience into the equation also screws around with this. Assuming your knowledge of the future is accurate (and the books never call this into question, nor do any of the other adaptations), you can know your actions are justified. But Herbert doesn't take the additional step of raising the specter of madness -- that maybe Paul and Leto are just friggin' nutso and their visions are just their own paranoid delusions.

Dune Part 2 sort of teases elements of this with Jessica's transformation after taking the Water of Life, and how crazy she seems. Plus the idea that Alia, a fetus, can communicate telepathically with both Jessica and Paul. Some of this can be played off as saying "Well, that's what happens when you 're pregnant and take the Water of Life." But it could also be used as a way to inject real doubt into the whole notion of the "Golden Path" that features in the next three books.
 
...Absolutely no visual cues that any significant time had passed between scenes in the actual film.

Other than the fact that Lady Jessica gets visually more and more pregnant as the film progresses?

C'mon, people. Denis Villeneuve is trusting the audience to be able to keep up here. There are visual cues all throughout the film if you're paying attention.

This is called good filmmaking. You don't need to spell everything out for the audience. You don't need to hit the audience over the head with it. You don't need to give them a bloody nose. You can be subtle, and it works out great.

SB
 
Other than the fact that Lady Jessica gets visually more and more pregnant as the film progresses?

C'mon, people. Denis Villeneuve is trusting the audience to be able to keep up here. There are visual cues all throughout the film if you're paying attention.

This is called good filmmaking. You don't need to spell everything out for the audience. You don't need to hit the audience over the head with it. You don't need to give them a bloody nose. You can be subtle, and it works out great.

SB
With Lady Jessica yes but that wasn't what was being discussed.
There was no evidence that any significant time passed with Paul's desert trek.

It was a watch once film for me.
 

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